Timing belt change, won't start.

[bmbmdmb]

https://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/285959-wont-start-after-timing-belt-change/

 

2nd timing belt change done by me again.

 

I changed the timing belt and idler, tensioner and aux belt on Fabia MK1 BLT 07 and followed the guide by skudmissile. 

 

This is the 2nd time I changed timing belt on this car. It is turning over by hand fine using 19mm star socket at least 2 or 3 belt rotations. I started the car and it turns but not starting (my heart drops). I used the crank and cam lock tools. Last time I didn't loosen the 3 cam 13mm bolts just loosened tension and then did up and rotated crank and relaxed tensioner and did up tension so different parts of belt got tensioned more evenly. This time I loosened the 3 x 13mm cam sprocket bolts and followed instructions to letter.

 

The belt is correctly tensioned.

 

VCDS doesn't give any torsion values if car doesn't start but on 3rd try I got cam position sensor fault 19464 and low oil pressure light. No bad metallic noises btw.

 

Following the link above I have looked at crown on cam sprocket , see photo, and hole is offset to right before adjustment. I have undone the 3 13mm bolt on cam sprocket and turned cam to centralise it, there was room for adjustment. I have tightened 3 x13mm bolts and turned engine by hand using 19mm star. It turns as well as before.

 

I haven't started it yet. I don't want to risk any damage. Mechanic said very unlikely to damage valves citing timing belt failure on same model on motorway at speed. I'm not so sure.

 

If there is any interference between pistons and valves, would it not be possible to turn over engine by hand (19mm star on crank)?

 

Help greatly appreciated. 

 

 

 

[StevesTruck]

I have a rule with diesels - The worse it looks, the simpler the fault normally is. 

 

Any spluttering, smoke from the exhaust or anything when you tried to start it, or literally just churning over?

 

Any indication that you might have upset the immobiliser?

 

Is there fuel in the filter?

 

I don't know if it can happen on PD's, but I've had experience of a Vauxhall where the guy who was on it before me got the pump pulley 360 degrees out of time. 

[J.R.]

I had a similar problem doing the belt on my MK1 Octavia, a neighbour was looking through the flywheel access hole & telling me when it was (not 🥴) at TDC.

 

I also thought there were fuel problems etc, a very good rough & ready diagnostic is to see if the engine fires on Easy-Start, if it does then you have a cam timing/torsion angle problem as I did, if it doesn't start then the valves are bent! You would have already bent them through cranking so no risk in trying to fire it up as a diagnostic.

 

I simply had to retime after setting the engine at TDC myself!

 

Also be aware that an out of measured limits torsion value will show as zero degrees making you think it is spot on, in reality it is incerdibly hard to set it exactly at zero degrees and the value should go negative (maybe positive?) when the engine is revved. Also VCDS or VAG use a negative value for torsion when it should be positive and vice versa which make you adjust the cam in the wrong direction.

[bmbmdmb]

Hi Steve, no smoke, no spluttering when starting. There is no ignition, car is not biting when turning key at all. Battery fully charged etc. Fuel filter was not touched, I managed to work around it.

 

Question is, do I try starting it after adjusting those 3 x 13mm bolts on cam sprocket. The hole is now in the centre of the crown. 

 

My other question is if I can turn over the engine using the crank 19mm star socket will this mean there is no risk of interference between moving parts on engine?

 

Thanks

 

[bmbmdmb]

9 minutes ago, J.R. said:

You would have already bent them through cranking so no risk in trying to fire it up as a diagnostic.

 

Could I damage valves when I turned over engine by hand? I did at least two or three belt rotations and the the ones I did previously as various bits were put back on, ie timing belt covers, aux belt.

 

When hand cranking - Felt same as before with old timing belt and thereafter after attempting to start the car.

 

VCDS - I read normal is plus3 to minus 3 and engine oil needs to be hot when setting. Clockwise on cam makes it more negative (so I read). Until car starts I can't get a value. Yeah cam position sensor error means it is throwing back no data 0 on torsion.

 

So fire the car up? Going to be tomorrow.

 

[bmbmdmb]

28 minutes ago, StevesTruck said:

immobiliser

How so? Thanks

[sepulchrave]

You need to set the engine to TDC using the the tiny arrow on the crank sprocket then check you can reinsert the locking pin in the cam, if not you need to get that pin back in then loosen the 3 sprocket bolts so you can turn the crank until it's at TDC before locking the crank there then tightening the sprocket bolts. Engine should start once you've removed the locks.

[bmbmdmb]

Sep - ok, tomorrow I'll took off alternator belt and pulley over crank and set lock pins. 

 

Thanks for clear advice. More details for anyone struggling to follow.

 

Sep can you clarify the cam lock pin hole(s) and the Q about the hole in the 'crown' both on cam sprocket.

 

Previously, both locking pins were in. See crank lock below. White line at 11am. Barrel of lock behind that knob on lock key engaged into hole behind it, 'locked in'

 

 

 

Sep - this is the bit I'm confused about. The cam lock pin hole, are there two positions?

 

this is a photo of the cam locking pin slot where a hole for the cam locking tool is visible - is this correct? Are there two??? I can see two , one per slot.

 

There are however, two 'slots' and a hole can be seen through both slots for the cam lock like the 2nd photo above.

 

The cam lock pin did fit the slot.

 

The third slot is the 'crown'. - see photo earlier on in first post. According to the link the hole shown in photo in first post needs to be in middle of the crown? Is this correct? It seems adjustment of cam sprocket clockwise so crown hole moved left and centralised allowed someone with similar issue to start engine. I have made this adjustment, but not started the engine. It would be wise to follow your instructions which I will do.

 

I used one of the 2 slots for positioning the cam lock tool. Both allowed the lock tool same depth. The cam pin lock is not as secure as the crank but it stayed in throughout. I used the slot bottom left of bottom of crown like in skud missiles guide (looking at guide photo) , if it makes any difference which of the two slot holes on cam sprocket to use?

 

 

[bmbmdmb]

For anyone following this, the old Dayco belt at 43k miles looked undamaged, although the Dayco tensioner I correctly set in 2014 with arrow in between window / slot (4yrs overdue) had slackened off. The tensioner bolt was tight (20nm plus 45 degree torque).

 

Car had high idle revs on cold start, perhaps connected.

 

Fitted INA tensioner kit this time.

 

This kit comes with new  tensioner bolt  and idler bolt although I didn't have guts to remove. Need to get two nuts and counter force them if that works to remove stud. Video on it available.

The tool is to measure length of protrusion of stud to ensure stud is fully inserted into engine block to stop cyclic wear. Aluminium engine and steel cause corrosion that loosens end of stud. Sheared stud then occurs...

Interesting read 

https://autotechnician.co.uk/ina-vag-stud-tool-now-available/

Edited 26 October, 2022 by bmbmdmb

[sepulchrave]

There is only one hole in the camshaft through which the pin fits into the cylinder head to lock the cam in place, when I last did this job the pin pushed right in until the head was tight up against the sprocket.

You're not locking the sprocket, only the cam and the crank, the sprocket needs to be loose to allow the belt to be positioned and tensioned correctly, only once all that is done can the 3 bolts be tightened and the locks removed before starting it.

I can't see what's going on with everything slathered in white paint like that, you don't need to paint anything if the cam and crank are locked before fitting and tensioning the belt.

[bmbmdmb]

The cam pin wasn't in the correct hole. Here is a photo of it locked in head through cam at about 4 or 5 o'clock. About 13mm of metal pin is protruding. It took some finding.

 

 

With cam pin locked in the crank is way out, 9 to 10 teeth out (lock not fully inserted in photo btw)  See photo. Red mark is the TDC mark. 

To get it back I guess I will need to strip everything and take out belt?

 

Is the engine likely damaged?

 

 

Appreciate the prompt replies and help. Thank you.

 

 

 

[KenONeill]

51 minutes ago, bmbmdmb said:

To get it back I guess I will need to strip everything and take out belt?

 

Is the engine likely damaged?

Looks likely.

 

Dunno, but the cam belt is certainly damaged. Look beside the lock sector in your second photo above.

[bmbmdmb]

55 minutes ago, KenONeill said:

cam belt is certainly damaged.

It looks like it, but I've had a good look and no damage. Must be a shadow. I used phone light and torch to illuminate or a recess behind belt. 

[bmbmdmb]

I have locked cam pin and removed belt. The crank won't get TDC either clockwise or anti clockwise. It stops short a tooth away meeting resistance. I guess the engine is fubar. This resistance is probably metal on metal. 

 

Scrap or rebuild?

[sepulchrave]

3 minutes ago, bmbmdmb said:

I have locked cam pin and removed belt. The crank won't get TDC either clockwise or anti clockwise. It stops short a tooth away meeting resistance. I guess the engine is fubar. This resistance is probably metal on metal. 

 

Scrap or rebuild?

 

Since you've already got the belt off, getting the head off is pretty straightforward so I would simply replace the bent valves and refit the head, time it up and carry on.

[bmbmdmb]

4 minutes ago, sepulchrave said:

Since you've already got the belt off, getting the head off is pretty straightforward so I would simply replace the bent valves and refit the head, time it up and carry on.

Long lasting damage if valves replaced? This is unfamiliar territory. I might want to hand this job over to a pro or get someone out.

 

Any recommendations in S Yorkshire or W York's, I'm near Barnsley?

[ApertureS]

That is far from timed up correctly... its miles out!

 

Did you attempt to start the car?

Did you turn the engine over by hand twice and recheck the pins

[bmbmdmb]

12 minutes ago, ApertureS said:

That is far from timed up correctly... its miles out!

 

Did you attempt to start the car?

Did you turn the engine over by hand twice and recheck the pins

I know! The crank was at the far end of its cycle. No wonder it has bent valves.

 

Car has been started and the damage done. TDC is probably not achievable due to mangled valves. 

 

I cranked by hand and it was fine, no resistance before starting car up. No damage heard when starting.

 

I ringing around garages now as I'm back at work next week. Local garage says they gonna take head off, replace valves and replace head and do compression test.

 

Didn't quote me, any ideas on costing?

[sepulchrave]

It's a simple job, half a days work plus the head job and parts, since your timing belt kit is usable that keeps the bill down a bit but I'd still expect it to be north of £500 including VAT.

[KenONeill]

49 minutes ago, bmbmdmb said:

Local garage says they gonna take head off, replace valves and replace head and do compression test.

They should also check for chipped pistons and bent conrods when the head's off and before rebuilding the head.

[J.R.]

Bent conrods? in your dreams!

[sepulchrave]

3 minutes ago, KenONeill said:

They should also check for chipped pistons and bent conrods when the head's off and before rebuilding the head.

 

The rods and pistons are massively stronger than the valves, only the valves will be damaged especially since the engine has not run but only spun over on the starter.

 

There's no need to catastrophise, it's bad enough without imagining worse!

[bmbmdmb]

25 minutes ago, sepulchrave said:

There's no need to catastrophise, it's bad enough without imagining worse!

Thanks for your kind words 😊

Last timing belt I tackle...

 

Car is booked in now for head off and inspection. Looking at £600 if just the valves need replacing. 

 

Worth doing pd 150 head bolts when head put back on?

 

I'll follow up on what damage done when I know in a couple of weeks.

Edited 27 October, 2022 by bmbmdmb

[sepulchrave]

53 minutes ago, bmbmdmb said:

Worth doing pd 150 head bolts when head put back on?

 

Absolutely, they're basically the same price as the standard bolts anyway.

[J.R.]

3 hours ago, sepulchrave said:

There's no need to catastrophise

Not sure if that is actually a word but I like it!

 

If it isn't it should be 👍

 

We need a modern day Michael Winner to use it and make it stick!