APR vs Racingline

[Dooge]

I think I looked on Awesome GTi's website just after Christmas (was planning on using Christmas overtime) as Racingline had their shop site down and it was a very similar price to what you've been quoted for both ECU and gearbox tune.

 

It's alot of money to drop on a car, I ended up putting money into savings. Being a recent new father and soon to have nursery costs and mortgage costs going up my disposable income is going from little to nothing 🥴

 

Unfortunately I have front shock absorbers to now replace, I might change all 4 as it'll work out cheaper in the long run. I have bought front topmounts and will look at ARB links, bushes and rear D bushes too. But means I won't be getting a map any time soon.

[RoddersUK]

Booked Racingline for 2nd June! As they get good feedback and are £400 cheaper!

[nl88]

I have a 2022 Kodiaq RS245 TSI and I’m also torn between 

 

1. Racingline 

2. APR 

3. Revo 

4. TVS

 

For gearbox I kindof have heard best things about TVS and likely to stick with TVS for TCU remap. However, can’t seem to decide which brand to go with for ECU remap. 

[RoddersUK]

If you go to TVS for TCU, might as well do ECU, unless you wanna travel around?

[RoddersUK]

Had it done today, quite good results, pre and post! Been running Tesco 99 for a while.

 

[J.R.]

I asked on another thread if they were pre and post tune graphs, you have confirmed it here.

 

There is something very very very wrong with that graph, am I the only one to see it?

[RoddersUK]

instead of asking us, please tell.......?

[J.R.]

Sure, possibly I am misinterpreting the curves.

 

Blue is power and Red is torque is that correct?

 

They cross at 5250 rpm which is as it should be.

 

I was going to say that the other pair of curves do not cross which is a physical impossibility.

 

On reflection I decided that it was not a pair of curves pre and post but a power run and then a coast down dyno powered run to measure the transmission losses, this is shown by the blue curves turning back on themselves and turning red and maybe its just a coincidence that the blue from one and the red from the other cross at 5250, maybe the torque curves are not shown but the graph has a torque scale.

 

What are you seeing?

 

It doesn't help that I cant read the numbers from the table, it looks like the power has gone from 237hp at 2800 rpm to 316hp at 2900 rpm, I can see one blue curve indicating the former but nothing resembling the latter.

 

The more I look at it the more confused I get, I dont like these graphs with 2 different vertical scales, bad presentation and mathematics but I can usually make out what is going on, not this time.

 

Perhaps you can enlighten me.

[Dooge]

That initial torque figure is great and will make it feel fast. How does it drive? Interested as really want to get mine mapped. Remind me, is yours DSG?

 

I think, although maybe wrong, red is before and blue is after. There's no crossover at 5250 and it's coincidence. They should have put Torque as one colour and power as the other.

[RoddersUK]

JR, both red are pre, both blue are post.

Click the photo, it should go bigger, then you can zoom in. I checked as yes, you cannot read the figures as they are.

 

The lines will cross at 5250rpm if the Y axis where the same scale.

 

Agreed it's not great, but seems correct in my mind.

[RoddersUK]

20 minutes ago, Dooge said:

That initial torque figure is great and will make it feel fast. How does it drive? Interested as really want to get mine mapped. Remind me, is yours DSG?

 

I think, although maybe wrong, red is before and blue is after. There's no crossover at 5250 and it's coincidence. They should have put Torque as one colour and power as the other.

Yes mines DSG. Only had a small drive home, one blip off the line and one on a slip road, but def notice the extra pull. Not gonna help the mpg for a while...

[Dooge]

1 hour ago, RoddersUK said:

Yes mines DSG. Only had a small drive home, one blip off the line and one on a slip road, but def notice the extra pull. Not gonna help the mpg for a while...

Great stuff, glad you are pleased with it!

[RoddersUK]

I'm a little nervous about the 520nm torque, is it really safe to be pushing that much? It drops off fast too, guess the turbo runs out of puff.....

 

Perhaps I'd feel happier with the lower torque map.

[Dooge]

13 minutes ago, RoddersUK said:

I'm a little nervous about the 520nm torque, is it really safe to be pushing that much? It drops off fast too, guess the turbo runs out of puff.....

 

Perhaps I'd feel happier with the lower torque map.

 

Where are you finding in the rev range it's running out? Although I haven't looked, I am guessing they offer a low torque version for manuals to save clutches?

[RoddersUK]

It's the big peak at the 3000rpm range, none of the Racingline curves look like that. Attached their OEM+ curve from their site. None of them have a peak like mine does, did my car move on the rollers?

The stage 1 says it's around 440nm and the OEM+ for cars with GPF is 500nm.

Stage 3 is 550nm, so how am I making 523nm?! And is it really safe?

Going to speak to them today.

Edited 5 June, 2023 by RoddersUK

[EnterName]

On 02/06/2023 at 19:08, J.R. said:

Sure, possibly I am misinterpreting the curves.

 

Blue is power and Red is torque is that correct?

 

They cross at 5250 rpm which is as it should be.

 

I was going to say that the other pair of curves do not cross which is a physical impossibility.

 

On reflection I decided that it was not a pair of curves pre and post but a power run and then a coast down dyno powered run to measure the transmission losses, this is shown by the blue curves turning back on themselves and turning red and maybe its just a coincidence that the blue from one and the red from the other cross at 5250, maybe the torque curves are not shown but the graph has a torque scale.

 

What are you seeing?

 

It doesn't help that I cant read the numbers from the table, it looks like the power has gone from 237hp at 2800 rpm to 316hp at 2900 rpm, I can see one blue curve indicating the former but nothing resembling the latter.

 

The more I look at it the more confused I get, I dont like these graphs with 2 different vertical scales, bad presentation and mathematics but I can usually make out what is going on, not this time.

 

Perhaps you can enlighten me.

I don't really know how the plots were calculated, but perhaps the gearbox losses are a factor in the torque and power curves not crossing at 5250 as expected?

But that's just the start of the weirdness of those plots. It's weird that the pre-remap curves (red) and the remap curves (blue) cross at different RPM.

I'm bemused as to why the power curves start to be measured at a relatively high 2200rpm.

I'm not sure what engine @RoddersUKhas, but both the 230vRS and 245vRS engines' peak toque in standard tune is available from 1500rpm & 1600rpm respectively, so starting measuring at 2200rpm seems odd.

What's even odder, is that peak torque on Rodders standard tune was a healthy 384.5Nm but at a heady 2750rpm, when it should be developing 350Nm (230ps) or 370Nm (245ps) from 1500rpm & 1600rpm respectively.

 

 

Even the remap torque curve is about 100Nm down on what it should be at 2200rpm.

I'd want a second opinion on the power output of that engine on a different rolling road.

 

 

Edited 5 June, 2023 by EnterName
Corrected torque differences for 230 & 245 engines

[RoddersUK]

230vrs

 

If you make the y axis of the torque the same scale as bhp  they cross at 5250rpm.

 

I have no idea why the rpm starts at 2000rpm, perhaps that's why it's showing such a peak, maybe it messed up the plot.....

 

Another question I shall be asking them.

[EnterName]

20 minutes ago, RoddersUK said:

230vrs

 

If you make the y axis of the torque the same scale as bhp  they cross at 5250rpm.

 

I have no idea why the rpm starts at 2000rpm, perhaps that's why it's showing such a peak, maybe it messed up the plot.....

 

Another question I shall be asking them.

BIngo! Yes, you're right. From my somewhat crude peering at the screen in conjunction with your sensible context, I get the following data.

(Errors would appear to be down to my accuracy reading the graph.)

So that makes sense now. Thanks @RoddersUK

 

I'll be interested to hear what Racingline say about the low rpm torque. 👍

 

[RoddersUK]

I've just been looking at some other people's graphs and their torque is at similar rpm?

 

Even the racingline graph is 2500 to 3000rpm for max torque

[EnterName]

20 minutes ago, RoddersUK said:

I've just been looking at some other people's graphs and their torque is at similar rpm?

 

Even the racingline graph is 2500 to 3000rpm for max torque

Yes, that seems to be consistent across a variety of tuners.

During my online search, I saw curves from smaller VAG engines recording peak torque from low RPM, but I'm not seeing any measured evidence to back up VAGs claim of high torque from 1500/1600rpm for the EA888 2.0tsi. I cannot explain the discrepancy.

I'd also like to see what torque/power numbers my car returns on a rolling road.

[J.R.]

@EnterName

 

I'm glad it was not just me confused, thanks for marking up the graphs with P and T, that makes sense now although not in a visual way to show both power and torque in the same colour without any annotations.

 

Like you it was not seeing 2 curves crossing at the same point which alerted me, I dont follow the logic that if the RH torque scale would change thet they would both cross at the same point as both curves would change not just one.

 

2 hours ago, RoddersUK said:

Another question I shall be asking them.

 

Watch carefully their facial reactions, my experience in the past of tuners is that they certainly have a good feel for what they are doing but often do not understand the physics and can start waffling or become defensive when you try to discuss the subject.

 

I reckon the guy may not know how to read a graph.

[RoddersUK]

Doesn anyone know what sort of max torque I should be pushing with the is20, dsg and stock internals?

 

Last thing I'd like to know before contacting them

Edited 6 June, 2023 by RoddersUK

[RoddersUK]

They said they've check with Racingline as well and it's all as expected.

[EnterName]

11 hours ago, J.R. said:

I dont follow the logic that if the RH torque scale would change thet they would both cross at the same point as both curves would change not just one.

You clear on that now, @J.R.?

[J.R.]

Nope, clear as mud.

 

I'm thick as mud as well which is probably the reason for the lack of clarity.

 

I wont lose sleep over it though!