Vrs tsi dsg lumpy idle and stalling

[davepope]

Hello,

 

Recently I have been having a couple of issues with my vrs tsi which is on 125k. I am experiencing lumpy idle and stalling when the car is between cold and normal operating pressure. The fault code is P0341, I have changed the camshaft position sensor, checked and cleaned the variable valve timing magnets and solenoids. At the same time the timing chain was changed as it was getting close to maximum limit. 

 

When the car is at normal operating it runs absolutely fine, it only seems to be an issue when warming up. 

 

Is there any suggestions on the possible fault or other items to check?

 

I have also noted today, that the stop start status screen is sometimes showing an error and that the engine must be running even tho it is. 

 

Thanks

[TheClient]

On 24/03/2023 at 19:29, davepope said:

Hello,

 

Recently I have been having a couple of issues with my vrs tsi which is on 125k. I am experiencing lumpy idle and stalling when the car is between cold and normal operating pressure. The fault code is P0341, I have changed the camshaft position sensor, checked and cleaned the variable valve timing magnets and solenoids. At the same time the timing chain was changed as it was getting close to maximum limit. 

 

 

Hi. Was the p0341 showing before you replaced the timing chain? Was the bad idling during warm up present before timing chain replacement or has both issues started since? 

[MarkyG82]

As above, if the issue was there before it points to other problems.

If on the original battery I would change that first. Make sure to get it coded to the car or it won't work correctly and could potentially limit the life of the new battery.

Then I'd be checking the air and fuel filter. At cold the engine will be running rich so the fuel filter would struggle if a bit blocked. 

[Ootohere]

@davepope

Welcome.

When was the Air Filter last looked at to be sure that clean and dry, 

& when were the spark plugs last replaced or checked? 

[davepope]

5 hours ago, TheClient said:

Hi. Was the p0341 showing before you replaced the timing chain? Was the bad idling during warm up present before timing chain replacement or has both issues started since? 

All symptoms were there before timing chain was replaced. 

[davepope]

4 hours ago, MarkyG82 said:

As above, if the issue was there before it points to other problems.

If on the original battery I would change that first. Make sure to get it coded to the car or it won't work correctly and could potentially limit the life of the new battery.

Then I'd be checking the air and fuel filter. At cold the engine will be running rich so the fuel filter would struggle if a bit blocked. 

Thanks, I will check the air filter but the fuel filter is built into the pump on these engines and you have to replace the pump at the same time. 

[ords]

3 hours ago, toot said:

@davepope

Welcome.

When was the Air Filter last looked at to be sure that clean and dry, 

& when were the spark plugs last replaced or checked? 

I agree. Check the filters and plugs before replacing an expensive item like the battery.

[TheClient]

5 hours ago, davepope said:

All symptoms were there before timing chain was replaced. 

Mmm. ok.  That is a bit suspicious then. If it is not the actual sensor, as it has been replaced with a genuine known item, then.......... another possibility is the chain is not timed correctly - e.g. one tooth out... If it say slipped, and it was not checked properly when replaced....

 

On a gen 3 ea888 there is 2x camshaft sensors isn't there, intake and exhaust?  Have both been replaced? 

 

I'd be focussing on the message you've got as that is a good indicator or why it is not happy and until you clear that there is little point on focussing on anything else. Yes, if battery is aged you could replace that if it is likely to need doing soon anyway or get it tested. As for other investigations, fuel / air filter etc.... not much point until you get a grasp of the fault code and keep it cleared. Its probably showing EML?

 

Out of interest, did you replace chain yourself, or ask a garage to do it, or did the garage fault find and recommend it doing to fix it?...

[davepope]

The timing chain was done by a garage. They changed the cam position sensor on the exhaust side first as that the obvious thing to do but as it made no difference they then went on to check other items as found that the timing chain was close to maximum stretch. As the car is on 125k and I don't plan to sell soon it made sense to change the chain even if it wasn't causing the issue. 

Battery was changed about 2 months ago as the stop start stopped working, and this fixed it. 

I will get them to check the timing and that it hasn't jumped a tooth. 

[TheClient]

1 hour ago, davepope said:

The timing chain was done by a garage. They changed the cam position sensor on the exhaust side first as that the obvious thing to do but as it made no difference they then went on to check other items as found that the timing chain was close to maximum stretch. As the car is on 125k and I don't plan to sell soon it made sense to change the chain even if it wasn't causing the issue. 

Battery was changed about 2 months ago as the stop start stopped working, and this fixed it. 

I will get them to check the timing and that it hasn't jumped a tooth. 

Yeah. Fair enough. 125k. Probably a good idea to replace chain and tensioner regardless, if you are keeping it.

 

Trouble is they probably need to remove the lower cover to recheck all timing marks properly. Probably near half the labour cost of the whole timing chain.

 

Did they replace the intake camshaft sensor as well? Or is p0341 exhaust cam timing specific? For cost and hassle ot may be a worthwhile shot in the dark.. 

 

if it is not either camshaft sensor I can't think of anything other than timing set up!!!

[davepope]

I believe there is only a camshaft position sensor on the exhaust but will check. 

 

I will probably quickly change over the crankshaft sensor as well. 

 

For the timing, I will get them to check the relationship between the intake and exhaust camshafts first incase one has jumped. 

[MarkyG82]

Just confirming that the new battery was coded correctly?

[TheClient]

1 hour ago, davepope said:

I believe there is only a camshaft position sensor on the exhaust but will check. 

 

I will probably quickly change over the crankshaft sensor as well. 

 

For the timing, I will get them to check the relationship between the intake and exhaust camshafts first incase one has jumped. 

Ok.

 

I reckon there are 2. There are in the golf mk7 r gen 3. Have you got 2 camshaft magnets, If there are then to get actual timing advance on both intake and exhaust, will more than likely need 2. 

 

You can measure the link length accross the top of the timing set up between camshafts... behind upper cover...  But this is mainly to check for stretch. If you measured and it checks OK, ghe whole timing could still be one tooth out.   

[TheClient]

The other possibilities beyond cam sensors  are wiring loom to sensors, ecu (remote possibility), engine timing not set properly. 

 

Another possibility could be the camshaft valves themselves, behind magnets although I'm not 100% the fault would show range / performance P0341 It is a possibility. 

 

To this point, has your garage, monitored camshaft adjustment timing, specified and actual on intake and exhaust camshafts? The measuring blocks should track relatively closely, specified = actual. They could log it and review. If one is not tracking properly it could indicate and issue with the camshaft adjustment mechanism (magnet, valve, variator part of camshaft). 

[davepope]

So fault is still apparent. We have been monitoring the running. The crank and camshaft sensors all seem to be following each other, no correlation issues being seen even when it stalls.

 

What we did notice when it stalls is that the timing values dont seem to be adjusting correctly. It seems like potentially the camshaft isn't adjusting correctly, the magnets and solenoids have been changed. Is there anything else to check? 

[TheClient]

On 04/04/2023 at 19:48, davepope said:

So fault is still apparent. We have been monitoring the running. The crank and camshaft sensors all seem to be following each other, no correlation issues being seen even when it stalls.

 

What we did notice when it stalls is that the timing values dont seem to be adjusting correctly. It seems like potentially the camshaft isn't adjusting correctly, the magnets and solenoids have been changed. Is there anything else to check? 

Do you mean the intake and exhaust camshaft timing, actual vs specified start to deviate?

 

Is it one or both - intake or exhaust.

 

If it is that and you've replaced the valves and solenoid actuators then it's only the camshaft variator itself which is sold with the camshaft and a pretty big job to pull camshaft or shafts out..

 

I'd try to Rule out cam timing being out. 

[davepope]

Been speaking with the garage that did the timing chain and they are going to check there work next week. So will see what happens 

[TeebsVRS]

Did you ever get to the bottom of this?

 

My 2014 VRS tsi is doing exactly the same. It started after I drove a few miles without the oil cap fitted by accident after topping up.

 

It was recently diagnosed a coolant leak from the thermostat, with potential damage to a wiring plug and timing correlation fault codes.

 

Had a whole new timing chain kit and waterpump fitted recently. 

 

Still doing the lumpy idle/stalling at cold start.

 

Garage is looking to change the two VVT solenoids as a next step.

[lou3b]

Did you ever get to the bottom of this?

 

My 2017 FL VRS TSI DSG has been doing this on cold start. When revs are higher on first start its okay, once its slightly warmed up around 3 - 10 mins of driving - it runs rough on idle and will stall when slowing down or at a stop after say 10 mins it doesn't display any symptoms and runs fine. 

 

Had a error come up about a sensor which is attached to the water pump - which was replaced.

 

If you leave it idling for about 7 mins and set off it runs fine. Mechanic doesn't know what's causing it. In warmer weather it doesn't seem to happen as frequent as the engine warms up faster? maybe could be thermostat

[varaderoguy]

Can we get a proper code scan done and posted up here pls? We can then advise more fully.

[lou3b]

It was a while ago that I had it looked over and the waterpump changed (with a sensor attached to it) that was flagging up. I'm pretty sure the mechanic said there where no other fault codes showing up regarding the engine after he changed that part. I'll try and take it back and get a fault code read again. Millage is high but all over 100k are just motorway miles.

 

I do have a video showing the dash when its in 'D' flicking between D and D1 - this is when its runs rough and sometimes stalls - oh and when it does do this, the dash lights dim with each 'rough idle' it does.

 

Uploaded a video - not the best but does show it swapping from D to D1 - once warmed up doesn't do this at all.

Edited 29 January by lou3b

[varaderoguy]

thats a little worrying....I've not seen a DSG do that before.  Its almost like the car is either not sure whether it is in normal drive or manual drive mode - or it thinks its moving.

Can you do a gearbox relearn please? 

Reset Procedure

1. Put the key in the ignition and turn on – Do not start the car.
2. Hold down the accelerator pedal fully for at least 10 seconds (many suggest 20 seconds). You will feel a little click under your foot at you push down the pedal fully.
3. Release the pedal – turn the key in the ignition.

Can you also confirm when the DQ250/381 gearbox has its last oil change? 

[Ootohere]

If a DQ250 6 speed wet DSG then the Oil & Filter changes should have been at around 40,000. 80,000 and 120,000 miles. 

[ords]

As the dash lights dim I suggest you get the battery and alternator checked out.

[lou3b]

2 hours ago, varaderoguy said:

thats a little worrying....I've not seen a DSG do that before.  Its almost like the car is either not sure whether it is in normal drive or manual drive mode - or it thinks its moving.

Can you do a gearbox relearn please? 

Reset Procedure

1. Put the key in the ignition and turn on – Do not start the car.
2. Hold down the accelerator pedal fully for at least 10 seconds (many suggest 20 seconds). You will feel a little click under your foot at you push down the pedal fully.
3. Release the pedal – turn the key in the ignition.

Can you also confirm when the DQ250/381 gearbox has its last oil change? 

 

Yea I've never seen one do this either. I'll give that a go tomorrow. It doesn't do it when it's warmed up. Just between 3 and 10 min usually. 

 

Pretty sure it's the DQ250 6 speed.

 

2 hours ago, Rooted said:

If a DQ250 6 speed wet DSG then the Oil & Filter changes should have been at around 40,000. 80,000 and 120,000 miles. 

 

The oil and filter where done at 119,700ish miles. 

40 minutes ago, ords said:

As the dash lights dim I suggest you get the battery and alternator checked out.

 

This was my next port of call, as my theory probably completely wrong is that when it first starts. It revs higher (higher energy into the system) runs fine. Revs drop - lower energy and something is struggling, after 10 mins or so enough juice to keep happy and run fine until next or fully cooled down. It's worse cold temps but has only started down it the last 6 months ish