ULEZ and other similar schemes we are being told are all about clean air for everybody but are they really just a means of making money from motorists?

[lol-lol]

5 hours ago, PetrolDave said:

I'm not sure that is true of all service buses, when living in South Molton it was pretty normal to find a service bus (not a coach) doing well over 50mph on the roads between there and both Barnstaple and Tiverton.

 

North Devon Link Road, lots of up hill and then massive down hill bits to build up speed, probably not even in gear.

 

The wild wild west.  

 

Cops nicked  some big vehicles at almost 90 mph down Holden hill like the arctic coming off the Plymouth ferry catching up time.

 

Thats a lot of kinetic energy.  

 

[Graham Butcher]

1 hour ago, lol-lol said:

 

North Devon Link Road, lots of up hill and then massive down hill bits to build up speed, probably not even in gear.

 

The wild wild west.  

 

Cops nicked  some big vehicles at almost 90 mph down Holden hill like the arctic coming off the Plymouth ferry catching up time.

 

Thats a lot of kinetic energy.  

 

All the same, a 20mph limit makes zero difference if they are speeding, might just as well 30, if their speeding, the result would be the same.

[lol-lol]

42 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

All the same, a 20mph limit makes zero difference if they are speeding, might just as well 30, if their speeding, the result would be the same.

 

Teenagers killed in the 20 mph zone on Monday were in collision with the bus it is reported.  Details are almost nil about the crash.

 

Question is what lesson are to be learnt.

 

Should persons under 21 be allowed to carry 5 passengers for instance ?  Audi A1 is a small car and has one of the better safety rating, even way back in 2010 at launch but, as we know, as car with 5 star rating a decade ago can be zero stars now so what do we do to help protect our young adults.

 

1. Restrict young adults to 2 or 3 passengers ?
2. Insist the only can drive cars with certain level of safety features ?
3.  That they cannot more than 1 passenger unless they pass an advanced test ? 

Maybe do this for those under 21, 23,25 and maybe those over 67 ?

 

New car system can tell a car and driver the max speed, I think all three of our Renaults read road signs and they know what limits are from Google as well so should the car limit its speed to 10% over the published speed limit ?

 

Think most of us agree that sometime a little spurt of power can get one out of trouble as well as in to trouble.

 

Perhaps like the US have a no passing of buses policy in some circumstances when they are alighting passengers ?

 

After all these deaths, especially in Wales, we need some fresh thinking I reckon.  I did spend a year with Dept of Transport in part doing truck road accident investigation.  Bigger killer back then but still way too high numbers both killed and badly injured with life changing injuries and experiences.  

 

[PetrolDave]

2 hours ago, lol-lol said:

North Devon Link Road

Not only on the NDLR, also on the old A361 between the villages.

[J.R.]

4 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

Details are almost nil about the crash.

 

Question is what lesson are to be learnt.

 

 

None if there are no details!

[lol-lol]

1 minute ago, PetrolDave said:

Not only on the NDLR, also on the old A361 between the villages.

 

Quite a road the NDLR.  I was with Exeter South West Regional Office Dept of Transport and NDLR was just being finished off and we were just stating on the Second Crossing of the Bristol Channel, which took 8 miles off the trip from Devon to South Wales !.

 

NDLR was one of the first in the UK to have automated ice warning from sensor to signage.   The road has oft been in the top ten most dangerous roads in England.

 

I usually stayed on the A38 unless there was probably with the 38 or fancied a change when going directly to my sisters on Dartmoor.  All the 3 Moors think are blanket 40 mph signed.

 

Why did God make sheep fog coloured ???   

 

[lol-lol]

5 minutes ago, J.R. said:

 

None if there are no details!

 

There will be details to some ie Police, Accident investigators, council I presume as not a Trunk Road, and locals will know stuff.

Was it front to front collision, did the A1 rebound off in to the metal railing or brick walls.

 

I regularly drive through South Wales and in winter the roads are oft very wet and I very cold, I have seen -10C and below.

Since Summer tyres fall of in braking performance at 7C should we go like mainland Europe and to All Season or Winter tyres in mid November perhaps ???

 

[J.R.]

You are asking me lots of questions that I cannot possibly answer any more than I can say what lessons are to be learned from almost nil details.

[lol-lol]

14 minutes ago, J.R. said:

You are asking me lots of questions that I cannot possibly answer any more than I can say what lessons are to be learned from almost nil details.

 

Questions not specifically at you but I presume there are lots of young deaths by RTAs in France as well 

 

Oll sweats like me have decades of experience of driving. Probably around a million miles in my case and in Canada, France and Germany as well as UK.

 

If we are to get the death toll down lower measures do we think will work ?  Winter tyres being one thought I have amongst others.

 

[Graham Butcher]

Looking at the scene on Google Earth and also street view, it is an undesignated road, narrow, and is reasonably flat has a slight bend in the road, is a very short stretch with apparently no traffic-calming measures and the road, Elwyn Street in Rhondda Cynon Taf is the only road in and out of the hamlet of about 100 houses. The road is assumed to be of the newly limited 20mph road with a 40mph stretch at either end of it. One end comes from the roundabout on the A4119 and judging from the photo showing the taped off section of road, the point of impact was 400 metres from the roundabout and just 50 metres or 139 metres depending on the direction of travel, from the bus stops. The accident happened approx 240 and 120 metres from the point where the speed limit changed to 20mph. Given that the ages of the victims and that the accident happened at approx 7:00pm, it is almost certain that speed was the main factor, ice can I think be ignored and that the bus driver knew the route and was either approaching the bus stop 50 metres away, or was travelling towards the A4119 roundabout which a left bend from post office location. 

 

The occupants of the A1 were teenagers, so form your own opinions of what actually happened, and I think most of us will be thinking the same thing.

 

I really cannot see that altering the speed limit is going to any difference to the outcome of any similar accident in the future, it could be 10, 20, 30 or 40 mph on that stretch, if someone is speeding, then they are the main cause.

[Graham Butcher]

2 hours ago, lol-lol said:

 

Teenagers killed in the 20 mph zone on Monday were in collision with the bus it is reported.  Details are almost nil about the crash.

 

Question is what lesson are to be learnt.

 

Should persons under 21 be allowed to carry 5 passengers for instance ?  Audi A1 is a small car and has one of the better safety rating, even way back in 2010 at launch but, as we know, as car with 5 star rating a decade ago can be zero stars now so what do we do to help protect our young adults.

 

1. Restrict young adults to 2 or 3 passengers ?
2. Insist the only can drive cars with certain level of safety features ?
3.  That they cannot more than 1 passenger unless they pass an advanced test ? 

Maybe do this for those under 21, 23,25 and maybe those over 67 ?

 

New car system can tell a car and driver the max speed, I think all three of our Renaults read road signs and they know what limits are from Google as well so should the car limit its speed to 10% over the published speed limit ?

 

Think most of us agree that sometime a little spurt of power can get one out of trouble as well as in to trouble.

 

Perhaps like the US have a no passing of buses policy in some circumstances when they are alighting passengers ?

 

After all these deaths, especially in Wales, we need some fresh thinking I reckon.  I did spend a year with Dept of Transport in part doing truck road accident investigation.  Bigger killer back then but still way too high numbers both killed and badly injured with life changing injuries and experiences.  

 

OK, I'll have a stab at answering your questions here, goes.

 

1,2 and 3 I don't see a way that you could enforce this as it would require police to pull over and check almost every car carrying 1 or more passengers unless it clearly visible that the driver met those ages.

 

New cars can detect speed limits. this is strictly true is it? Do you know for a fact that all new cars can do this? Then you also have the fact that a speed sign could be obscured by say a bus, lorry, overhanging tree etc or even be defaced enough that system cannot detect the limit. You mention that they can also know the limits from Google maps, but someone has to update Google maps with the latest speed limits, which have recently changed in Wales, do you know, if all these changes have yet been updated on Google, or even TomTom and other sat navs. The built-in one in most Skodas and other VAG cars for instance will not know that info either. I have just updated to the latest maps on mine, and there are speed limits shown on it which do not reflect those in my city for instance.

 

Apart from that how many teenagers do you know could afford to buy a new car with the latest tech, let also get insurance for a new car?

 

The US rule of no passing of buses when they are alighting passengers, given that most buses the days are front entrance ones, you are unlikely to know if the bus is stopped at a bus stop for passengers to alight or disembark, or if it is just sitting in a traffic jam.

 

To my mind, there is only one way to attempt to cure the problem and that is far better training in the first instance and far more police on the roads in unmarked cars so they can observe a person driving and if required stop them and deal with any observed problem before a nasty accident occurs, and it is too late. Speed cameras are not the answer, only more police on the roads, both high visibility and low key can do this. 

[PetrolDave]

16 hours ago, lol-lol said:

 

Quite a road the NDLR. 

 

The road has oft been in the top ten most dangerous roads in England.

Why? The overtaking opportunities are so few and far apart that people who either don't know the road intimately (usually Grockles) or are just impatient take risky overtaking manoeuvres which all too often end up in a fatal accident.

 

If only the NDLR had been built to the same standard as the A38 Devon Expressway it would be a MUCH safer road for all, locals and Grockles.

 

It remains to be seen if the "little bit here, little bit there" current improvement scheme will represent a real improvement in safety, I and many others who live(d) in the area have our doubts.

[lol-lol]

5 minutes ago, PetrolDave said:

Why? The overtaking opportunities are so few and far apart that people who either don't know the road intimately (usually Grockles) or are just impatient take risky overtaking manoeuvres which all too often end up in a fatal accident.

 

If only the NDLR had been built to the same standard as the A38 Devon Expressway it would be a MUCH safer road for all, locals and Grockles.

 

It remains to be seen if the "little bit here, little bit there" current improvement scheme will represent a real improvement in safety, I and many others who live(d) in the area have our doubts.

 

North Devon has much smaller population centres than South Devon is the reason for the less lanes to North Devon than South.

 

Trucks have just been approved to be longer by about 6 foot so overtaking might be even more dangerous.

 

Another reason I went for the mild hybrid Arkana rather than the etech version as that version is slow overtaking.  Etech owners complain about overrevving and Renault do a "fix" but I would rather have the revs and better acceleration I think.

 

OK on motorbikes usually but a heavily ladened Grockle box is a recipe for disaster for summer roads in Westcountry, Wales, Scotland etc.

 

[Graham Butcher]

I'm confused, thought you was happy with 20mph, so why not on the NDLR? 

[PetrolDave]

25 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

North Devon has much smaller population centres than South Devon is the reason for the less lanes to North Devon than South.

But how many lives have to be lost before that "cost of the road" calculation is more than offset by the" cost of lost lives" and "cost of lost time to the economy" calculation?

 

Regular stretches of dual carriageway would have been a more suitable option than the NDLR as originally built, and not as expensive as a complete dual carriageway.

 

Anyway, lives have been lost and other lives caused mental anguish because of the original decision, let's hope the current improvements are enough to significantly cut the toll of lost lives and serious injuries - but the jury is out on that.

[PetrolDave]

2 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

I'm confused, thought you was happy with 20mph, so why not on the NDLR? 

@Graham ButcherI don't know who you're replying to but it sure isn't me, I think the 20mph limit has no place on any of our roads.

Edited 14 December, 2023 by PetrolDave

[Graham Butcher]

4 minutes ago, PetrolDave said:

@Graham ButcherI don't know who you're replying to but it sure isn't me, I think the 20mph limit has no place on any of our roads.

Yeah, sorry, I thought I was replying to @lol-lol.

 

I agree, we don't need 20mph on our roads. I discovered today that my own city council were planning to introduce 20mph on all residential roads but at a recent meeting, residents said no. 

[lol-lol]

This is the vid from about 15 years ago as part of the Think campaign.  At 20 mph odds improve by a further third I heard.

 

my ol 

[Graham Butcher]

1 hour ago, lol-lol said:

This is the vid from about 15 years ago as part of the Think campaign.  At 20 mph odds improve by a further third I heard.

 

my ol 

Not disagreeing with that, I remember the adverts well, however, a 20mph blanket speed limit for all built-up areas is plain stupid.

 

Drivers should be taught how to drive according to the prevailing conditions within the speed limits. In other words, near schools, hospitals etc, drive sensibly and reduce speed in case you need to brake in a hurry because people/children are pre-occupied with other things on their mind and forget their own safety.

 

Children should also be taught at school and by their parents to understand the inherent dangers in crossing a road (green cross code) and also playing near roads etc. Parents especially should be drumming this into their children instead of just relying on someone else to do it, i.e., schools. There used to a dedicated team of people, including police that used to go around the schools giving safety talks and videos, but that seems to have gone the way of other things, i.e, cut. Instead, they would rather take us backwards in time to match all the other ancient diseases that are making a comeback because of the flipping cuts that 13 years of Austerity have ushered in.

 

The 20mph limits are far more to with shifting responsibility rather saving lives. I think that most would say that the biggest threat to drivers and pedestrians safety on the roads is the shocking state of the roads, which is directly the fault of the authorities.

 

These are TV ads about safety crossing the road and instructing drivers what lights means on crossing etc, these are from 1976 era, when was the last time you saw things like these on TV, all part of the cuts I'm afraid.

 

 

Song The Green Cross Code (youtube.com)

 

(719) Green Cross Code 3 - YouTube

 

Green Cross Code - Kevin Keegan (youtube.com)

 

Green Cross Code - Joe Bugner (youtube.com)

 

(719) DAD'S ARMY GREEN CROSS CODE ADVERT - YouTube

 

 

Edited 14 December, 2023 by Graham Butcher

[lol-lol]

11 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Not disagreeing with that, I remember the adverts well, however, a 20mph blanket speed limit for all built-up areas is plain stupid.

 

Drivers should be taught how to drive according to the prevailing conditions within the speed limits. In other words, near schools, hospitals etc, drive sensibly and reduce speed in case you need to brake in a hurry because people/children are pre-occupied with other things on their mind and forget their own safety.

 

Children should also be taught at school and by their parents to understand the inherent dangers in crossing a road (green cross code) and also playing near roads etc. Parents especially should be drumming this into their children instead of just relying on someone else to do it, i.e., schools. There used to a dedicated team of people, including police that used to go around the schools giving safety talks and videos, but that seems to have gone the way of other things, i.e, cut. Instead, they would rather take us backwards in time to match all the other ancient diseases that are making a comeback because of the flipping cuts that 13 years of Austerity have ushered in.

 

The 20mph limits are far more to with shifting responsibility rather saving lives. I think that most would say that the biggest threat to drivers and pedestrians safety on the roads is the shocking state of the roads, which is directly the fault of the authorities.

 

These are TV ads about safety crossing the road and instructing drivers what lights means on crossing etc, these are from 1976 era, when was the last time you saw things like these on TV, all part of the cuts I'm afraid.

 

 

Song The Green Cross Code (youtube.com)

 

(719) Green Cross Code 3 - YouTube

 

Green Cross Code - Kevin Keegan (youtube.com)

 

Green Cross Code - Joe Bugner (youtube.com)

 

(719) DAD'S ARMY GREEN CROSS CODE ADVERT - YouTube

 

 

 

Governments, City legislators, transport departments, analysts in to the statistic disagree. Bit surprised we have not heard more noise from businesses ie in my industry of logisitics, particularly last mile logistics.

 

I am personally offended that the Devonian Mr Prowse was again dubbed in some of the Green Cross Code man videos, just like in Star Wars playing Darth Vader.

James Earl Jones has a great voice but I would buy a video with the Devon accent Darth Vader.

 

Any road up, New York city has introduced a 25 mph city wide speed limit which I think was throughtful to go a middle ground.  Drivers would then perhaps kee to truly under 30 rather than driving up to 35 mph.

 

Road speed and taxes, people seem to want to push the nominal limits by 10 or 15%.  As long as we catch those who do 16% or more that is the aim I reckon.

 

 

  

 

[PetrolDave]

The other factor in a 20mph limit is driver attention, keeping to 30mph is pretty easy to do whilst looking out at the road but in many vehicles keeping to 20mph requires more checking of the speedo and hence less time looking out at the road.

 

This can result in more accidents, albeit that every one is less serious and maybe some are so minor that they don't get reported?

 

I seem to remember this was reported by the BBC about the 20mph scheme in the northern part of Portsmouth, but can't find any links to it?

[lol-lol]

18 minutes ago, PetrolDave said:

The other factor in a 20mph limit is driver attention, keeping to 30mph is pretty easy to do whilst looking out at the road but in many vehicles keeping to 20mph requires more checking of the speedo and hence less time looking out at the road.

This can result in more accidents, albeit that every one is less serious and maybe some are so minor that they don't get reported?

I seem to remember this was reported by the BBC about the 20mph scheme in the northern part of Portsmouth, but can't find any links to it?

 

I would not rely on an analogue speedometer and I am pretty sure most professional drivers ie truck drivers, reps of various types, use either:

1.  Their car's digital display which is normally quite a large figure ie one or two inches tall
2. Their GPS device displaying the GPS speed displayed at screen level
3. A GPS HUD, head up display device, which can be had from £9 and upward, depending on features ....

No excuses.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Display-Speedometer-Motorcycle-OverSpeed-Reminder/dp/B0CMXW3ZVN/ref=sr_1_3?crid=16CX4Q369KOYB&keywords=gps+hud&qid=1702654632&sprefix=gps+hud%2Caps%2C377&sr=8-3

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 15 December, 2023 by lol-lol

[Graham Butcher]

@lol-lol I do like the idea of that large digital display, but seriously, I think your way of course with that belief. I have not seen those before and I see very few people with add-on in their car adhered to the screen or anywhere else for that matter. Used to see it a lot before, with after market handsfree phone kits and satnavs, but most cars these days are coming with a built-in microphone and Bluetooth radios for pairing up to their phones, and the one thing I have seen a few times is people using their phones as a satnav with Waze, or Google Maps installed on it. Most people still rely on the cars built in analogue speedo.

 

I use both methods, my Tom-Tom is mounted in the centre of the screen, has GPS speedo which has a very small font and is next to useless because it is so small. I also have Next base dashcam which also has a screen blanker to prevent distracting me, and then it displays GPS digital speedo, but this is located behind the rearview mirror, less than ideal for the driver use, so the main speedo is the analogue one. I do know that the analogue one is fast by a margin, and that margin increases the faster I go.

 

I think that the big push towards a 20mph limit is more to do with the fact electric cars are so quiet that they normally cannot be heard, and rather than spend more money trying to educate children like they used to before they axed the funding, they are getting the lower limit in place now so that by the time EV's are the norm, they know that their will be more accidents with pedestrians etc, but if they occur at 20 rather than 30, that their will be fewer fatalities.

Edited 15 December, 2023 by Graham Butcher

[Ootohere]

Dead simple for UK cars with MPH speed restrictions is buttons.  Like gear selector buttons, or like a F1 Grand Prix car for the pit lane.

 

Instead of all the Sh!te there is on the steering wheels, or touch screens, at the finger tips a  20MPH, 30, mph, 40 MPH button to hit.

 

Or as is coming with the New Tech and already here,  GPS / Sat Nav / Speed recognition, an Automatic Max Speed in a 20, 30 or 40 mph even 50 mph when not a NSL road.

You have to press the over-ride button if you need to go over the speed limit and each action is logged, just incase you cause an accident while over the posted speed.

[lol-lol]

Intelligent Speed Assistance is still due to become EU law in July 2024 so less than 200 days and if the EU is doing the UK has to follow suite as it is making most of cars made in the UK for other markets.  US looks like it will follow suite within month of this too. 

 

Legislation covers much more than just speeding..... EU) 2019/2144  https://www.legislation.gov.uk/eur/2019/2144

 

We might see thousands of cars registered in Q2 of 2024 ie removed from customs WHs and put in to UK Free Circulation as there are some cars that need a big design to make ISA work on the vehicle.

 

Renault UK HQ asked me to test drive the new Austral, very impressive dash and sensor systems.  Its ability to sense cyclists and I presume pedestrians is awesome.  Felt a bit too futuristic and I miss not having a tacho which seems to be one of the things that go along with gear number indicators which I like.

 

Its garlic bread ie the future.  Irish quick explanation, them still being an EU country and not still sorting out which laws to follow......