ULEZ and other similar schemes we are being told are all about clean air for everybody but are they really just a means of making money from motorists?

[J.R.]

1 hour ago, Rooted said:

Instead of all the Sh!te there is on the steering wheels, or touch screens, at the finger tips a  20MPH, 30, mph, 40 MPH button to hit.

 

Great idea but it would no doubt be buried deep down through several sub menus on a (not for me) touch sensitive infotainment screen.

 

I think a cross between cruise control and the wiper delay switch would work, I click for 20mph, 2 for 30mph etc.

 

We have "pedagogique" traffic lights, often there are no warning or instruction signs, you approach them at anything over 50km/h and they turn red, they dont care that you then slowed down they will make you stop and wait 30 seconds much to the chagrin of those behind who knew about them.

 

It takes a few experiences for some people before the penny finally drops, as much as I hate them they work remarkably well and 99% of drivers having slowed down in advance or been forced to stop stick to the limit through the rest of the village.

 

To explain a RN (Route Nationale) will be 80km/h national speed limit (was 90 till a few years ago) whenever it crosses a village the limit is 50km/h inside its boundarys, people know as soon as they see the standardised sign with the village name they should slow to 50km/h the exit from the controlled zone is marked by the same sign with the village name crossed through.

 

I slow down a bit, maybe all the way to 50 dependant on the conditions or if the Flics might be hiding out of view, its a gentle deceleration off the throttle, equally when I can see the exit sign I will gradually accelerate before reaching it, French drivers will hammer on the brakes when they enter the zone, often having overtaken me at the last second as I ease off, and on leaving they will wait for the sign drop down several gears and race away like a scolded cat, no wonder they always complain about poor fuel economy!

[Graham Butcher]

1 hour ago, Rooted said:

Dead simple for UK cars with MPH speed restrictions is buttons.  Like gear selector buttons, or like a F1 Grand Prix car for the pit lane.

 

Instead of all the Sh!te there is on the steering wheels, or touch screens, at the finger tips a  20MPH, 30, mph, 40 MPH button to hit.

 

Or as is coming with the New Tech and already here,  GPS / Sat Nav / Speed recognition, an Automatic Max Speed in a 20, 30 or 40 mph even 50 mph when not a NSL road.

You have to press the over-ride button if you need to go over the speed limit and each action is logged, just incase you cause an accident while over the posted speed.

I had the same thoughts, a seres of speed limiters, a cruise controller in reverse.

[Stonekeeper]

2 hours ago, Rooted said:

Dead simple for UK cars with MPH speed restrictions is buttons.  Like gear selector buttons, or like a F1 Grand Prix car for the pit lane.

 

Instead of all the Sh!te there is on the steering wheels, or touch screens, at the finger tips a  20MPH, 30, mph, 40 MPH button to hit.

 

Or as is coming with the New Tech and already here,  GPS / Sat Nav / Speed recognition, an Automatic Max Speed in a 20, 30 or 40 mph even 50 mph when not a NSL road.

You have to press the over-ride button if you need to go over the speed limit and each action is logged, just incase you cause an accident while over the posted speed.

 

 

The speed limiter on my minibus is a stalk. Goes up and down in 5mph intervals. ( Mercedes)

[Graham Butcher]

37 minutes ago, Stonekeeper said:

 

 

The speed limiter on my minibus is a stalk. Goes up and down in 5mph intervals. ( Mercedes)

Yes, I remember when I was given a C class as temporary hire car while company was being ordered. It came with no owners manual and the person who delivered the car, managed to leave the speed limiter switched on and never explained how the system worked. I had to be a quite a bit of head scratching that day to discover what the problem was and how to disable it. 

 

Once I had learned about, I used that to keep within the limits as It is even harder to gauge your speed in a strange car.

Edited 15 December, 2023 by Graham Butcher

[lol-lol]

16 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

@lol-lol I do like the idea of that large digital display, but seriously, I think your way of course with that belief. I have not seen those before and I see very few people with add-on in their car adhered to the screen or anywhere else for that matter. Used to see it a lot before, with after market handsfree phone kits and satnavs, but most cars these days are coming with a built-in microphone and Bluetooth radios for pairing up to their phones, and the one thing I have seen a few times is people using their phones as a satnav with Waze, or Google Maps installed on it. Most people still rely on the cars built in analogue speedo.

 

I use both methods, my Tom-Tom is mounted in the centre of the screen, has GPS speedo which has a very small font and is next to useless because it is so small. I also have Next base dashcam which also has a screen blanker to prevent distracting me, and then it displays GPS digital speedo, but this is located behind the rearview mirror, less than ideal for the driver use, so the main speedo is the analogue one. I do know that the analogue one is fast by a margin, and that margin increases the faster I go.

 

I think that the big push towards a 20mph limit is more to do with the fact electric cars are so quiet that they normally cannot be heard, and rather than spend more money trying to educate children like they used to before they axed the funding, they are getting the lower limit in place now so that by the time EV's are the norm, they know that their will be more accidents with pedestrians etc, but if they occur at 20 rather than 30, that their will be fewer fatalities.

 

You not noticed Renault EVs, and presumably Dacias EVs as well, sing when the are moving between 1 and 19 mph ?

THis is a Zoe ZE40, or ZE22, difficult to tell, but my ZE50 does the same thing.  Works well.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 16 December, 2023 by lol-lol

[Graham Butcher]

11 hours ago, lol-lol said:

 

You not noticed Renault EVs, and presumably Dacias EVs as well, sing when the are moving between 1 and 19 mph ?

THis is a Zoe ZE40, or ZE22, difficult to tell, but my ZE50 does the same thing.  Works well.

 

Since those ads were on TV about the increased chances of surviving a accident at 30 rather than 40mph, there has been a great deal of work done in designing pedestrian injury mitigation systems in the 14 years since then and cars now have things like bonnet hinges/catches and crumble zones etc that cushion any pedestrian impact thus making fatalities at 30mph far less likely anyway.

 

More and more cars these days come with emergency braking systems to detect a pending crash before it happens and apply maximum braking to reduce and possibly prevent any impact from actually happening in the first instance, so 20mph zones are not strictly required these days and of course in parallel to these advanced measures, they have greatly improved braking systems/tyre technology so actual stopping distances have been reduced.

 

As to EV's that emit noses, or as you say "sing," that's all well and good but in reality what is the point if you can actually override the sound system and shut it off anyway?

 

As to the aftermarket add-on digital GPS speedo's, some cars such as the Mk3 Superbs come with both analogue and digital speedo's as standard, but the digital one is not GPS, it uses the same system as the analogue and so shows faster readings so would be inherently safer than a GPS system as they are always 2 to 3 mph slower than a GPS digital, so when my analogue shows 30mph, the GPS units are reading 27/28mph with the last digit flipping between the 7 and 8, meaning it is probably doing around 27.5mph. This percentage error (7%) reading continues throughout the range, so an indicated speed of 40mph is in fact closer to 37mph and thus, 60 becomes 55mph.

 

So if EV cars use GPS signals for their speedos, then they are inherently more dangerous to pedestrians than ICE, ironically, especially if any sounds (singing) can be turned off.

Edited 16 December, 2023 by Graham Butcher

[lol-lol]

14 hours ago, Graham Butcher said:

Since those ads were on TV about the increased chances of surviving a accident at 30 rather than 40mph, there has been a great deal of work done in designing pedestrian injury mitigation systems in the 14 years since then and cars now have things like bonnet hinges/catches and crumble zones etc that cushion any pedestrian impact thus making fatalities at 30mph far less likely anyway.

 

More and more cars these days come with emergency braking systems to detect a pending crash before it happens and apply maximum braking to reduce and possibly prevent any impact from actually happening in the first instance, so 20mph zones are not strictly required these days and of course in parallel to these advanced measures, they have greatly improved braking systems/tyre technology so actual stopping distances have been reduced.

 

As to EV's that emit noses, or as you say "sing," that's all well and good but in reality what is the point if you can actually override the sound system and shut it off anyway?

 

As to the aftermarket add-on digital GPS speedo's, some cars such as the Mk3 Superbs come with both analogue and digital speedo's as standard, but the digital one is not GPS, it uses the same system as the analogue and so shows faster readings so would be inherently safer than a GPS system as they are always 2 to 3 mph slower than a GPS digital, so when my analogue shows 30mph, the GPS units are reading 27/28mph with the last digit flipping between the 7 and 8, meaning it is probably doing around 27.5mph. This percentage error (7%) reading continues throughout the range, so an indicated speed of 40mph is in fact closer to 37mph and thus, 60 becomes 55mph.

 

So if EV cars use GPS signals for their speedos, then they are inherently more dangerous to pedestrians than ICE, ironically, especially if any sounds (singing) can be turned off.

 

In reality zoe drivers do not bother to switch off the singing, why would one ?

 

It is EU it exists and UK effectively still follows.

 

As Farage said in the jungle the UK now has a right to do its own thing even if it is worse for UK citizens.

 

In reality the UK is too small a market to do something different even if 1 in 10 Zoes are UK or Ireland spec.

 

Hoping to upload the sound of a Tie fighter to replace one of the 3 sounds.

 

[Graham Butcher]

Haha, I expect that sound effect might scare the **** out of them 

 

 

On a more serious note however, just because you wouldn't disable your sounds, does not mean that other wouldn't, because they would just to revel in the hushed travel that EV provides. 

[@Lee]

Welsh anti 20mph zone Facebook groups turn out to be run by tories. Quelle surpise!

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/english-tory-politicians-running-facebook-28449407
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1746942241950560337.html

Edited 16 January by @Lee

[Graham Butcher]

@@LeeWell that was an obvious thing, they want to discredit the Welsh government as we are heading into election time.

I have zero problems with 20mph zones near schools or hospitals, but they should accompanied by flashing signs when speed limits are in force, especially the school ones as schools are not open 24/7 so when they are not open, speed could be returned to 30mph safely.

 

As to the stupid slogan “20 is plenty where people live” people live everywhere and if governments spent some money educating children that roads are hazardous and need to be treated with respect, learn how to cross roads safely, and that they are not playgrounds, ever, then the number of accidents involving pedestrians will fall significantly as a result and air quality will also improve as cars are more efficient at 30mph. 

[BTandSid]

And enforce the zigzag lines outside schools. These are the parents, not people who’ve gone to the shops, taking a walk in the park.

[Graham Butcher]

8 minutes ago, BTandSid said:

And enforce the zigzag lines outside schools. These are the parents, not people who’ve gone to the shops, taking a walk in the park.

Doesn't that in itself say something about the world that we live in today, that we as parents feel that it is no longer safe for our children to walk to and from school? In my time as a child, it was rare to see children being driven to and from schools. Its yet another sign of just how soft governments have become on law and order these days. 

[Ootohere]

Lots of main streets and not just housing areas in Scotland have 20 mph limits and some villages or towns have a 20 mph on the main road the full length of them.

 

No big deal IMO other than those that will be right up your jacksy as you comply to the signs..

Pre School children alone might not know how to cross a road safely, but generally school children can cross roads quickly by 20 mph limits can help it be safer.

 

It is not just the dottery, infirm, maybe elderly or disabled that might benefit from traffic being slower, children with adults, adults with buggies / prams.  Drivers seeing them and even slowing if they are attempting to cross roads as they have the right to. 

 

[Paws4Thot]

42 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

I have zero problems with 20mph zones near schools or hospitals, but they should accompanied by flashing signs when speed limits are in force, especially the school ones as schools are not open 24/7 so when they are not open, speed could be returned to 30mph safely.

Like around almost every school in Scotland for example?

[Graham Butcher]

15 minutes ago, Rooted said:

Lots of main streets and not just housing areas in Scotland have 20 mph limits and some villages or towns have a 20 mph on the main road the full length of them.

 

No big deal IMO other than those that will be right up your jacksy as you comply to the signs..

Pre School children alone might not know how to cross a road safely, but generally school children can cross roads quickly by 20 mph limits can help it be safer.

 

It is not just the dottery, infirm, maybe elderly or disabled that might benefit from traffic being slower, children with adults, adults with buggies / prams.  Drivers seeing them and even slowing if they are attempting to cross roads as they have the right to. 

 

But 30mph has never been a problem and is there any proof that 20mph is better in any way at all?

[Ootohere]

Of course 30 mph has been a problem.

Hence people have on their refuse bins speed signs and they support reduced speed limits through their towns and villages or streets / roads in cities.

Hence cut out figures erected of a Police Officer with a hand held speed gun.

 

What is the issue with having to knock 10 mph off your speed when going through areas where other live or shop and want to walk along pavements or cross roads.

 

Some of the places with 20 MPH limits are to have traffic / goods vehicles use other routes like trunk route rather than take the routes they do..

Perth to Forfar and the A90 being an example of that where there are now 20 mph speed limits in villages and there will be more coming.

[Graham Butcher]

3 minutes ago, Paws4Thot said:

Like around almost every school in Scotland for example?

Yes, although, where I live I have 5 schools and a 6th form college, located on 6 different roads, they are 160yds, 300yds, 400yds, 520yds and 540yds away as the crow flies, and they are all within 30mph zones except the college 400yds away is in a 20mph zone. I've lived here 30 years and there has not been a single incident I'm aware off and the ages range from todds that are preschool to 16 and 17year olds.

[@Lee]

43 minutes ago, Graham Butcher said:

But 30mph has never been a problem and is there any proof that 20mph is better in any way at all?

Apparently if you look.

 

Quote

Pedestrians are also proven to have a much higher chance of survival if hit at 20mph with a 2.5% chance of death, compared to 20% when travelling at 30mph.

https://roadsafetygb.org.uk/news/opinion-20mph-policies-are-anti-death-not-anti-motorist/#:~:text=Pedestrians are also proven to,20% when travelling at 30mph.
https://www.brake.org.uk/get-involved/take-action/mybrake/knowledge-centre/speed/speed-and-injury


Speed limts here (Germany) are 50Kph in urban areas but outside schools, residential/ care/ retirement homes that's lowered to 30Kph (18Mph) The school/ kindergaten onse almost always have a time restriction such as 06:30 - 14:00 but care homes etc I think are 07:00 - 20:00
In some residential side streets it's also 30Kph. Other streets, usually block paved such as ours there are signs as you enter telling you to watch out for children playing/ pedestrians. These have a walking pace limit. 

Edited 16 January by @Lee

[Ootohere]

If an area has no issues or needs for a lower speed limit then there might be no support for a reduced speed limit.

 

That is not the same as the Conservatives & Unionists pre GE trying to make out they would stop councils and local authorities from introducing them.

 

We are years past in the British Isles from when the Local Authorities were supposed to be making adjustments to speed limits based on the location and other circumstances.

Many just never bothered doing that in England, Wales or Scotland in a timely manner. 

 

 

Edited 16 January by Rooted

[Graham Butcher]

Well, here is a aerial view of my area of the city and it seems that I have the lions share of schools in my locality S1 is infants and junior, S2 is junior and senior Catholic, S3 is preschool, infants and junior, S4 is preschool Catholic (often used to see Suzi Quatro there as her children used to go there, and now I think her grandchildren do), S5 is infants and juniors, S6 is Girls County High School and S7 is an ex senior school, now planned to be a new housing estate and C1 is 6th form college.

 

The stretch of road that is a 20mph zone is the 400yds, shown by the red line and the only fatal accident involving a pedestrian is as far as I know my drunken neighbour coming home from the pub one night who stepped out from behind a parked car in the road between S5 and S6 back in the 1960's.

 

So I don't think that 30mph is a bad thing as long as people understand that roads are for vehicles, footpaths are for pedestrians and when they need to cross the road, think about it and remember the green cross code and cross over directly in a straight line and as quickly as possible.

 

  

[Graham Butcher]

1 hour ago, Rooted said:

Of course 30 mph has been a problem.

Hence people have on their refuse bins speed signs and they support reduced speed limits through their towns and villages or streets / roads in cities.

Hence cut out figures erected of a Police Officer with a hand held speed gun.

 

What is the issue with having to knock 10 mph off your speed when going through areas where other live or shop and want to walk along pavements or cross roads.

 

Some of the places with 20 MPH limits are to have traffic / goods vehicles use other routes like trunk route rather than take the routes they do..

Perth to Forfar and the A90 being an example of that where there are now 20 mph speed limits in villages and there will be more coming.

There will always be people who think speed limits should be lowered, but that is not to be confused with the wishes of the majority, who don't think they should be lowered as there is not an inherent problem if people actually stop and think about their own safety and use the green cross code. Where the traffic is higher they install zebra crossing or even pelican crossings to enable the people especially the elderly, and they have microwave detectors built-in on the pelican crossings to detect slow people still being on the crossings and will hold the lights at red until they have safely crossed the road. 

 

Yes lower limits could save lives, so the 10mph reduction gives a 2.5% chance of death if hit by a car, if we ban cars completely then they can claim 0% chance of death by being hit by a car. What about the last mile delivery vans, cyclists, motorbikes, buses, ambulances, fire engines etc. I think that deaths might well rise because pedestrians will become complacent and make the fatal mistake of thinking that there is no need to think for themselves any more and step into the road and get struck by an almost silent EV vehicle.  

Edited 16 January by Graham Butcher

[Ootohere]

There will always be people who think in residential and built up areas that thing 'Speed Limits on roads' should be reduced.

 

As to Confusing the majority,  that might be those talking about people, when they mean 'Drivers'   Is it the majority of those that drive that are against the reduction in speed limits?

 

Maybe so, maybe they have no children, or could not care less about children, or children in areas they drive through and only children where they actually live.

 

Maybe it is users of Public Transport like busses complaining that they can only go at 20 mph, or maybe they are happy they can do 20 mph. 

 

Location location location,    Villages, towns and areas with main roads passing through might be very different from in a city, or a housing scheme or even places with Public Transport. 

 

Lets get back to teaching the Green Cross Code. after all it was a good thing 54 years ago when introduced. 

 

&  I might still be in the Tufty Club. 

[PetrolDave]

3 hours ago, Rooted said:

Of course 30 mph has been a problem.

Hence people have on their refuse bins speed signs and they support reduced speed limits through their towns and villages or streets / roads in cities.

Hence cut out figures erected of a Police Officer with a hand held speed gun.

That's not giving an example of 30mph being a problem, that's drivers exceeding 30mph being a problem.

Edited 16 January by PetrolDave

[Graham Butcher]

35 minutes ago, Rooted said:

There will always be people who think in residential and built up areas that thing 'Speed Limits on roads' should be reduced.

 

As to Confusing the majority,  that might be those talking about people, when they mean 'Drivers'   Is it the majority of those that drive that are against the reduction in speed limits?

 

Maybe so, maybe they have no children, or could not care less about children, or children in areas they drive through and only children where they actually live.

 

Maybe it is users of Public Transport like busses complaining that they can only go at 20 mph, or maybe they are happy they can do 20 mph. 

 

Location location location,    Villages, towns and areas with main roads passing through might be very different from in a city, or a housing scheme or even places with Public Transport. 

 

Lets get back to teaching the Green Cross Code. after all it was a good thing 54 years ago when introduced. 

 

&  I might still be in the Tufty Club. 

What I actually said was that the majority of people don't have an issue with speed limits being too high in general. That does not however mean that they neither have children, or don't care about children in their own areas or areas that they drive through, you are misunderstanding what I am saying there. I seriously doubt that there are people around who actually think like that, and I also believe that such lower speed limits of 20mph are justified in certain areas such as schools and that most people would also fully support such limits. 

 

I have a friend whose wife used to be employed as school visitor giving talks and presentations to children parents alike at schools on road safety, cycling safely, and the green cross code and was appalled when the county council pulled the funding for her role and made her redundant years ago. Maybe I'm cynical but I can't help but see these moves as a means of driving cars off the roads, combined with 15 minute cities, cycle lanes that now reduce the road width for motorised transport even if it means that ambulances are now struggling to take patients on a 999 call to the A&E hospital near me, along with reduced speed limits coming in, LEZ and ULEZ and ZEZ in some cities like Oxford for instance that are banning everything but cyclists and ZEV from parts of the city. It all strikes me as a bit too contrived.    

Edited 16 January by Graham Butcher

[Graham Butcher]

22 minutes ago, PetrolDave said:

That's not giving an example of 30mph being a problem, that's drivers exceeding 30mph being a probolem.

Exactly that, otherwise wouldn't they have been displaying a lower speed limit of say 20mph? This is what happens when the police are becoming ever more reliant on speed cameras to catch speeders. Years ago there would have been more traffic patrols both in the famous batten burg cars and also undercover cars patrolling the roads catching not only speeders but also those drivers under the influence of drugs, booze or just downright dangerous driving, standards have been dropped and the country is going downhill.