Valve stem seals gone after head gasket repair

[thomasaspin]

12 minutes ago, Catherine41 said:

OK thank you for your advice, I'll see if I can find a garage to check the timing 👌 do you know what the cost for this check would be? 

Catherine I myself am in Manchester and my mother had the 1.2L HTP engine and the same thing happened to her , if you would like some help feel free to DM me , garage wise I would be taking it to Ashton autoworx in lees oldham 

[Catherine41]

Thank you, I didn't know a warranty complaint was an option but I'll  Look into that that's helpful to know 😊

[Warrior193]

Hello Catherine, I'm unable to estimate the cost of checking the valve timing - but I don't think it will take very long to establish - certainly less than an hour.

If you do go down this route, ensure the mechanic is aware of previous work done - and that you will require a written report on the results of the check.

[Catherine41]

51 minutes ago, thomasaspin said:

Catherine I myself am in Manchester and my mother had the 1.2L HTP engine and the same thing happened to her , if you would like some help feel free to DM me , garage wise I would be taking it to Ashton autoworx in lees 

8 minutes ago, Warrior193 said:

Hello Catherine, I'm unable to estimate the cost of checking the valve timing - but I don't think it will take very long to establish - certainly less than an hour.

If you do go down this route, ensure the mechanic is aware of previous work done - and that you will require a written report on the results of the check.

That's great thank you, just so I have an idea of how big a job it would be to check 👌

 

[Warrior193]

Another thought occurs to me - if the original garage replaced valves bent/damaged by the timing chain failure - why were the valve stem seals not replaced at the time?  they aren't expensive, and to reuse stem seals (if that's what they did) on an engine with that mileage, just beggars belief.  

[Catherine41]

He said it was because I didn't take it to him for valve seals, I took it there for timing belt 🤷‍♀️

[Warrior193]

If engine valves were damaged by the failure of the camchain, the valves and associated gear would have had to be stripped and repaired or replaced - to do that, the valve springs and stem seals would have had to be removed from the cylinder head.

Did you receive an itemised invoice listing all parts used for the original repair - are you able to post it on here? 

 

[xman]

Its a chain, not a belt. Radically different, would have required a complete kit, new sprockets, guides and tensioner. And much, much more besides.

 

Is it a 3 cylinder HTP engine or a 1.2tsi engine? On your registration document.

 

A photo of the engine will tell us.

 

Post the invoice showing any detail of the parts and work carried out and statement of warranty.

 

Various routes to getting your money back:-

 

If you paid any part of the bill by credit card  then section 75 protection applies, or debit card (chargeback rules apply) also Consumer Rights Act 2015 could apply and help.

 

 

Edited 28 February by xman

[Warrior193]

@Catherine41 - in your second post you mentioned bent 'pistons' that had to be replaced due to damage - did you actually mean engine valves?

[Catherine41]

15 minutes ago, Warrior193 said:

If engine valves were damaged by the failure of the camchain, the valves and associated gear would have had to be stripped and repaired or replaced - to do that, the valve springs and stem seals would have had to be removed from the cylinder head.

Did you receive an itemised invoice listing all parts used for the original repair - are you able to post it on here? 

 

I do have the invoice, don't recall anything about stem seals but will post it on here once I get home, I did take it back to him a couple of days after the work was done because there was oil coming up through the ignition coil, he sorted this but said he thinks the valve seals need replacing and this would be a seperate job, he even sent a video of spoke coming from the exhaust which I have never noticed before or since then (there is  small amount of blueish smoke) but nothing to the extent of what he 'discovered' as soon as I left the garage so I suspect he had put something in to make this happen but not sure why

9 minutes ago, Warrior193 said:

@Catherine41 - in your second post you mentioned bent 'pistons' that had to be replaced due to damage - did you actually mean engine valves?

Yes, sorry I don't know the correct terminology 

[Catherine41]

17 minutes ago, xman said:

Its a chain, not a belt. Radically different, would have required a complete kit, new sprockets, guides and tensioner. And much, much more besides.

 

Is it a 3 cylinder HTP engine or a 1.2tsi engine? On your registration document.

 

A photo of the engine will tell us.

 

Post the invoice showing any detail of the parts and work carried out and statement of warranty.

 

Various routes to getting your money back:-

 

If you paid any part of the bill by credit card  then section 75 protection applies, or debit card (chargeback rules apply) also Consumer Rights Act 2015 could apply and help.

 

 

That's great thanks so much, I think I paid by credit card! I will post invoice and photo of engine as soon as I get home 👍

[Jocko]

3 minutes ago, Catherine41 said:

That's great thanks so much, I think I paid by credit card! 

You could contact your credit card company and instigate a Section 75 action against the garage. The credit card company is actually the customer in this transaction. I am currently following the same line after defective roof repairs. It costs you nothing and the garage has to prove that they did everything correctly TO THE CREDIT CARD COMPANY.

[Catherine41]

Just now, Jocko said:

You could contact your credit card company and instigate a Section 75 action against the garage. The credit card company is actually the customer in this transaction. I am currently following the same line after defective roof repairs. It costs you nothing and the garage has to prove that they did everything correctly TO THE CREDIT CARD COMPANY.

Amazing! I did not know this! Thanks so much! 

[Paws4Thot]

@Catherine41 This might be tricky to follow because I'm trying to address two of your posts.

 

1. " I didn't take it to him for valve seals, I took it there for timing belt" -   Unless you explicitly directed him to replace the timing belt and carry out no other work he should have noticed the valve seals and possibly other damage, and at least advised you of other works needed and/or other damage to the engine before proceeding to replace the belt.
2. "there was (by implication engine) oil coming up through the ignition coil" - Complete and utter male bovine faeces. The ignition coil may contain electrical insulating oil, but if that starts leaking you'll get rough running, initially at high revs but eventually the engine won't run at all. There is no connection between the coil and the lubricating oil system so lube can not leak through the coil!

 

 

[Catherine41]

3 minutes ago, Paws4Thot said:

@Catherine41 This might be tricky to follow because I'm trying to address two of your posts.

 

1. " I didn't take it to him for valve seals, I took it there for timing belt" -   Unless you explicitly directed him to replace the timing belt and carry out no other work he should have noticed the valve seals and possibly other damage, and at least advised you of other works needed and/or other damage to the engine before proceeding to replace the belt.
2. "there was (by implication engine) oil coming up through the ignition coil" - Complete and utter male bovine faeces. The ignition coil may contain electrical insulating oil, but if that starts leaking you'll get rough running, initially at high revs but eventually the engine won't run at all. There is no connection between the coil and the lubricating oil system so lube can not leak through the coil!

 

 

1...exactly my thoughts, he did the timing chain and had gasket and said it was all sorted, it was only when I took it back days later (because smoke coming from under the bonnet) that he said the valve seals needed doing and that would be a seperate job 

2. He said it was something he just hadn't 'tightened up properly' I believe he said it was around the spark plug, maybe below spark plug, and that was what was coming up through the engine. I eventually had to get the coil replaced bacause the engine stalled shortly afterwards 

[Paws4Thot]

4 minutes ago, Catherine41 said:

He said it was something he just hadn't 'tightened up properly' I believe he said it was around the spark plug, maybe below spark plug, and that was what was coming up through the engine. I eventually had to get the coil replaced bacause the engine stalled shortly afterwards

Make sure the credit card company know about this; it's definite proof beyond reasonable doubt that the engine work was not carried out to an acceptable standard.

[Catherine41]

Great! I will, I even have the video he sent of smoke coming from the exhaust shortly after the work was done so that might help too, thanks so much for your advice! 

[J.R.]

2 hours ago, thomasaspin said:

A cause of smoking after a belt snap / slip can be fitting new oil control rings / pistons rings into an old bore without honing the bore also if the pistons did slap the valves then it can scrape the bores causing ways for oil to get into the combustion chamber , it would of been cheaper to drop a second hand 1.2L engine into your car than to pay for a rebuild sounds like they have ripped you off and I would be making a warranty complaint 

 

It never sounded like the pistons were replaced and the OP has now confirmed that it was bent valves replaced.

 

There is no warranty to complain about, they received a non running vehicle with a slipped timing chain and bent valves, they replaced these components, the engine is now running, arguably if the valve stem seals were damaged they should have been replaced or should have been done so as good practice, we only have the garages opinion that the oil burning is due to worn valve stem seals.

 

I dont believe anybody will be able to force the garage to do the additional work at their own cost and I don't believe the credit card company will get involved in any way shape or form.

[Breezy_Pete]

@Catherine41 Have we yet established which engine type this is?

@xman asked, but I see no answer.  If you can share the VIN or a photo of the engine bay we can see.

 

[xman]

1 hour ago, Paws4Thot said:

"there was (by implication engine) oil coming up through the ignition coil" - Complete and utter male bovine faeces. The ignition coil may contain electrical insulating oil, but if that starts leaking you'll get rough running, initially at high revs but eventually the engine won't run at all. There is no connection between the coil and the lubricating oil system so lube can not leak through the coil!

I've given this strange incident some thought

If true, my hypothesis is:-

 

This is probably a 2010 htp 12 valve engine either CEVA or CJLA. The timing cover sits on top of the cylinder head and spark plugs are mounted centrally deep in the timing cover. If the timing cover to cylinder head had not been sealed properly using the proper liquid sealant, there is potential for the oil in the camshaft space can leak into the bottom of the spark plug wells, and up into the ignition coil packs sitting on top of the plugs.

 

 

So maybe timing cover not sealed correctly. And were the timing cover/cylinder head bolts correctly tightened? We have to presume a new cylinder head gasket was installed according to manufacturers procedure (which might incude sealant). Also I hope they didn't  reuse the old bolts which will have been one time stretch bolts.

 

It would be standard procedure to replace stem seals if any new valve is fitted (and lapped in). The first things that would bend with loss of camchain would be the valves, pistons may be damaged, but I doubt conrods would, although little and big end shells might be damage. Valve heads can sometime break off in fragments so its vital to examine bores for debris and damage otherwise oil burning is inevitable.

Other things like hydraulic tappets should be checked and changed if damaged. Any damage unexpectedly found should be reported to the customer before any further work is carried out, with the customer agreeing. If the customer declines a recommendation then the garage should put it in writing to the customer. Otherwise it never happened.

 

Items that could have been damaged

 

6  Roller rocker arm

8,9 Valves

7 Hydraulic tappet

13 Valve stem seal

 

Edited 28 February by xman

[xman]

14 minutes ago, J.R. said:

I dont believe anybody will be able to force the garage to do the additional work at their own cost and I don't believe the credit card company will get involved in any way shape or form.

Maybe living in France you don't have the same protections as us. Section 75 protection is a uniquely British credit card thing enshrined in the Consumer Credit Act 1974. And they must listen.

https://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/consumers/complaints-can-help/credit-borrowing-money/goods-services-bought-credit

[thomasaspin]

Hey guys if you see second comment from OP she states pistons had to be replaced , if garage are cowboys and used new pistons rings and did not hone the bore this is a classic example of the symptoms the op is stating (sluggish driving due to lack of compression , oil getting past control/ compression rings) also if any scoring to bore , another good point is if the cylinder head was skimmed to accommodate new head gasket , a bent valve would also potentially damage a valve stem seal , & a valve stem seal in my personal opinion would only smoke on startup like my mothers Kia ceed diesel currently does. 

[Paws4Thot]

25 minutes ago, xman said:

there is potential for the oil in the camshaft space can leak into the bottom of the spark plug wells, and up into the ignition coil packs

Agreed, but I'd suggest that this proves the necessity of using exactly the correct names when describing an issue?

[Paws4Thot]

6 minutes ago, thomasaspin said:

a valve stem seal in my personal opinion would only smoke on startup

Next time I see him, I'll tell my mate who had 2 CVH engine XR3(i)s and one RS Turbo that all smoked on overrun pickup due to hardened oil seals of your opinion, then wait until he stops laughing at you.

[xman]

Without further evidence, its difficult to guess what was or not done. The OP keep talking about a cambelt when any 1.2 engine of that era is a camchain. She said they replaced a couple of bent pistons, pistons dont generally bend, a conrod might but unlikely, Valves will definitely bend due to the angle they hit the piston crown.