Replacement tyre recommendations.

[Ootohere]

And light.  Which is brilliant if it does come down to needing pushed.   Also great if traction / grip is lost when off camber.  Slide a bit and get stopped by a verge, kerb, snow bank etc.  No abs, no TC/Asr.  No airbags, just drive with care or not a care in the world and die or life changing injuries or live to remember how good things were and can still be.   Fiat Panda, Mini and many others FWD, RWD and sometimes AWD.  

[Winston_Woof]

11 minutes ago, Rooted said:

And light.  Which is brilliant if it does come down to needing pushed.   Also great if traction / grip is lost when off camber.  Slide a bit and get stopped by a verge, kerb, snow bank etc.  No abs, no TC/Asr.  No airbags, just drive with care or not a care in the world and die or life changing injuries or live to remember how good things were and can still be.   Fiat Panda, Mini and many others FWD, RWD and sometimes AWD.  

even better you can(if you really need too)  use the starting handle with the engine in first gear (and ignition off) to wind yourself out of trouble .

[MarkyG82]

Modern cars are bigger and heavier with wider tyres. It's not a valid argument that you managed 40 years ago rain or shine. Roads are busier, cars more capable of higher speed, people think they are indestructible (cars or drivers). Also tyre technology is more specific. A modern "regular" tyre is now summer biased. A touring tyre is arguably worse in the winter than a performance tyre yet even less likely to be swapped out.

 

All the above feeds my theory that UK cars should come with all seasons as standard.

[Alan_P]

9 hours ago, J.R. said:

 

Dangerous mix?

 

Sub optimal maybe but no worse than driving on winter tyres for several months when the temperatures oscillate wildly around the notional switching point that people believe so religiously.

 

Perfectly legal to change one tyre at a time (arguably not so in my country but for protectionist not safety reasons) all they would need to do is press the TPMS reset button once.

 

I still havn't fitted my winter tyres yet, the weather hasn't justified it, I bought them down here before having lived here for any length of time, in 30 minutes I will be doing an 800km autoroute journey on standard tyres worn evenly to the TWI markers that have done 52K miles in my ownership and an unknown distance before that, its 7.5° and raining here and will be colder in the North.

 

The winter tyres will be fitted in spring when the old ones become visibly illegal and will probably remain on rain and shine until worn out, my new circumstances do not require changing tyres with the seasons.

 

Anyone who has driven 60's vehicles either in period or in the 70s and 80s as bangers will know how to drive to the conditions and available grip, how to modulate the power of a higher performance vehicle, todays drivers have only ever driven cars which would be very dangerous in inexperienced hands but for the traction and stability control systems, they freak out when suddenly in snow and ice they are unable to overcome their deficiencies as well, for them changing tyres with the season is sensible.

It’s probably best that we agree to differ with regards to mixing tyres.

I consider having winter/all season tyres at the front and summer tyres at the rear (or vice versa) at temps below 8c to be dangerous. Even worse if it was mixed across an axle. The mismatch in performance and grip is much worse than having summer or winter tyres all round IMO.

I appreciate you're an advanced and experienced driver who can dramatically lower your speeds and increase braking distances, but I personally prefer my car to brake and steer as well as possible instead of driving around a safety issue I created. Especially when I can’t moderate how other road users drive around me.

This is before we consider ECS/ABS implications or having to convince an insurance assessor that an accident wasn’t due to a mix of 3PMSF and summer tyres.

I sometimes borrow a fiends mk2 Capri for a nostalgic Sunday drive. It takes me back to my teens when I had a 3.0s on barely legal 30yo tyre technology. Roundabouts in the rain were hilarious, but I don’t want even 10% of that for a daily driver now.

[xman]

I reckon over 90% of UK drivers will have standard summer tyres fitted all round, all year. Is that safe? A large proportion will be budget tyres. Never can understand why Mercedes/BMW/Audi/Range Rover drivers fit obscure Chinese tyres. Even funnier when I see heavily modded lowered cars with big bore penis exhausts on 30 profile ditchfinder iii tyres.

 

I notice a lot of new low/mid range Skodas, VWs etc now come from the factory with budget tyres, e.g. Komoran and Nexen.

 

And why do manufactureres think its safe to drive on skinny space saver spares that aren't even the same diameter as the others even limited to 50mph? Never mind load ratings.

Edited 25 February by xman

[Alan_P]

35 minutes ago, xman said:

I reckon over 90% of UK drivers will have standard summer tyres fitted all round, all year. Is that safe? A large proportion will be budget tyres. Never can understand why Mercedes/BMW/Audi/Range Rover drivers fit obscure Chinese tyres. Even funnier when I see heavily modded lowered cars with big bore penis exhausts on 30 profile ditchfinder iii tyres.

 

I notice a lot of new low/mid range Skodas, VWs etc now come from the factory with budget tyres, e.g. Komoran and Nexen.

 

And why do manufactureres think its safe to drive on skinny space saver spares that aren't even the same diameter as the others even limited to 50mph? Never mind load ratings.

Yes, as I said, I think it’s safer than running mixed tyre types. Having winter tyres on the front and summers at the rear might get you up an icy driveway easier than a full set of summers, but handling and braking is negatively affected on the road. Not to mention keeping ESC sane, if and when it’s needed.

Just to clarify, mass loads up on the weaker tyre(s) and causes it to lose grip even faster than it would do normally. Not only are you unbalancing the car, but you are making a poorly performing tyre even worse than it would be normally. You might get away with it, but increasing braking distance and creating oversteer or understeer where it didn’t exist before is not advisable IMO.

I don’t have access to the stats, but maybe people running on a space saver for short periods is safer overall than those who don’t have a spare and sit at the side of the road or even block a lane while they wait for recovery.

[naster]

1 hour ago, xman said:

obscure Chinese tyres

I’ve disproven myself on this one. Long story short, I had 6000kms in the last 2 months through ice, snow, motorway, etc. on commute, errands, family trips with Windforce Chinese tyres. I can say they did not underperform in any situation so far, compared to any Goodyear, Michelin, Vredestein or Debica I have used in the last 2 decades. I am well aware that they would probably last 3 seasons at best but for £200 total, including fitting, I am not going to be worried about longevity if my wife hit a curb by accident.

[Schtum]

13 hours ago, Rooted said:

And light.  Which is brilliant if it does come down to needing pushed.   Also great if traction / grip is lost when off camber.  Slide a bit and get stopped by a verge, kerb, snow bank etc.  No abs, no TC/Asr.  No airbags, just drive with care or not a care in the world and die or life changing injuries or live to remember how good things were and can still be.   Fiat Panda, Mini and many others FWD, RWD and sometimes AWD.  

 

I bought a new Panda in '83.  We had some very bad winters back then.  I remember I used to happily park it in snow drifts at the side of the road and drive out again.

 

Edited 25 February by Schtum

[J.R.]

On 25/02/2024 at 14:28, MarkyG82 said:

Modern cars are bigger and heavier with wider tyres. It's not a valid argument that you managed 40 years ago rain or shine

 

I wasn't arguing, I was stating a fact.

On 25/02/2024 at 14:28, MarkyG82 said:

A modern "regular" tyre is now summer biased.

 

Do you have anything to back this up other than it has been repeated so many times now that it has become recieved wisdom?

On 25/02/2024 at 20:52, xman said:

I reckon over 90% of UK drivers will have standard summer tyres fitted all round, all year. Is that safe

 

There is no such thing as "standard summer tyres", you have bought into the myth perpetrated to sell winter tyres.

 

On 25/02/2024 at 21:39, Alan_P said:

Just to clarify, mass loads up on the weaker tyre(s) and causes it to lose grip even faster than it would do normally.

 

That sounds very convincing and autoritative but reads as total nonsense to me, are you really trying to say that a "weaker" (and you really need to explain what you mean by that) tyre will alter the dynamic weight distribution of the vehicle across its 4 contact points during cornering or braking?

 

If not what were you trying to say?

 

I drove 800km yesterday on tyres that were all down to the TWI's and possibly lower, very evenly worn though, the conditions were atrocious, flooding everywhere to be seen, visibility aside there were no problems on the A and B roads, one brief aquaplaning from one front wheel when passing through a deep puddle (oncoming traffic so could not avoid it), a glimmer of the dash light for the 3 letter acronym stability system, it did not apply any contra-braking but probably engaged the rear Haldex 100% to oppose any torque transfer to the opposite front wheel.

 

I had been out for a play in the downpour the day before and learned that the tyres will aquaplane more than a newer tyre but only slightly and that the 4WD Yeti was remarkably stable during the event, I did not need to back of the power or make a steering correction which would have been necessary on the previous FWD Octavias.

 

It was on the flooded autoroutes that I found the biggest difference, it was the wettest sustained conditions I have ever driven in, the wipers were on the whole time and on the high speed for 80% of the journey, had there been a higher speed I would have selected it, at 100-110 km/h there was no aquaplaning whatsoever and a very relaxed drive visibility and moronic drivers aside, from 110-120 km/h there would be mild aquaplaning, I could see the deep water ahead of time and just feel it and see a brief flash of the dash light, from 120-130 km/h it was a fairly constant occurence, enjoyable, it kept me alert but did not make for a relaxed drive, it was exactly like the parade and initial laps on a wet or drying circuit driving on slicks when others had changed to wets.

 

The thing is I innately knew what was the maximum safe speed, it was only when I realised how many mainly new vehicles were passing me that I went a bit faster, then faster still just to experiment, that is what I mean about driving to the conditions and knowing how and being able to react, for those driving much faster aside from not having the visibility to do so were IMO lulled into a false sense of security by their superior tyres (there I said it! 😁) and the electronic systems that they were probably unware were happening (none of us watch the dashboard at these times) that extra 10 or 20 km/h meant that when they aquaplaned or changed vector too rapidly things would get out of hand very quickly and I reckon very few of them would have had the experience and the reactions to save the situation.

 

More tread on their tyres or not I dont believe that any of them would have been driving so much faster than the rest of the traffic a few decades back when the driver drove the vehicle without assistance, back then they would probably have been fearful when I drove past them faster than they felt safe to drive, yesterday it was the opposite.

 

Plus ça change.......................

 

At one stage the devil in me brake tested a very annoying knobhead, the standing water was quite deep but there was absolutely no loss of braking traction which surprised me.

 

What I learned from the journey was that if my vehicle was a FWD variant with the same remapping I probably would have changed these tyres before now and that I really should have fitted the winter tyres before setting off as its a lot colder here in the North, I still would not have driven any faster on the autoroute though.

[ArisaigDavid]

6 minutes ago, J.R. said:

 

I wasn't arguing, I was stating a fact.

 

Do you have anything to back this up other than it has been repeated so many times now that it has become recieved wisdom?

 

There is no such thing as "standard summer tyres", you have bought into the myth perpetrated to sell winter tyres.

 

 

That sounds very convincing and autoritative but reads as total nonsense to me, are you really trying to say that a "weaker" (and you really need to explain what you mean by that) tyre will alter the dynamic weight distribution of the vehicle across its 4 contact points during cornering or braking?

 

If not what were you trying to say?

 

I drove 800km yesterday on tyres that were all down to the TWI's and possibly lower, very evenly worn though, the conditions were atrocious, flooding everywhere to be seen, visibility aside there were no problems on the A and B roads, one brief aquaplaning from one front wheel when passing through a deep puddle (oncoming traffic so could not avoid it), a glimmer of the dash light for the 3 letter acronym stability system, it did not apply any contra-braking but probably engaged the rear Haldex 100% to oppose any torque transfer to the opposite front wheel.

 

I had been out for a play in the downpour the day before and learned that the tyres will aquaplane more than a newer tyre but only slightly and that the 4WD Yeti was remarkably stable during the event, I did not need to back of the power or make a steering correction which would have been necessary on the previous FWD Octavias.

 

It was on the flooded autoroutes that I found the biggest difference, it was the wettest sustained conditions I have ever driven in, the wipers were on the whole time and on the high speed for 80% of the journey, had there been a higher speed I would have selected it, at 100-110 km/h there was no aquaplaning whatsoever and a very relaxed drive visibility and moronic drivers aside, from 110-120 km/h there would be mild aquaplaning, I could see the deep water ahead of time and just feel it and see a brief flash of the dash light, from 120-130 km/h it was a fairly constant occurence, enjoyable, it kept me alert but did not make for a relaxed drive, it was exactly like the parade and initial laps on a wet or drying circuit driving on slicks when others had changed to wets.

 

The thing is I innately knew what was the maximum safe speed, it was only when I realised how many mainly new vehicles were passing me that I went a bit faster, then faster still just to experiment, that is what I mean about driving to the conditions and knowing how and being able to react, for those driving much faster aside from not having the visibility to do so were IMO lulled into a false sense of security by their superior tyres (there I said it! 😁) and the electronic systems that they were probably unware were happening (none of us watch the dashboard at these times) that extra 10 or 20 km/h meant that when they aquaplaned or changed vector too rapidly things would get out of hand very quickly and I reckon very few of them would have had the experience and the reactions to save the situation.

 

More tread on their tyres or not I dont believe that any of them would have been driving so much faster than the rest of the traffic a few decades back when the driver drove the vehicle without assistance, back then they would probably have been fearful when I drove past them faster than they felt safe to drive, yesterday it was the opposite.

 

Plus ça change.......................

 

At one stage the devil in me brake tested a very annoying knobhead, the standing water was quite deep but there was absolutely no loss of braking traction which surprised me.

 

What I learned from the journey was that if my vehicle was a FWD variant with the same remapping I probably would have changed these tyres before now and that I really should have fitted the winter tyres before setting off as its a lot colder here in the North, I still would not have driven any faster on the autoroute though.

What a long and interesting story about what sounds suspiciously like irresponsible behaviour (I wonder if you should just fit a set of slicks and have done with it), but what does any of it have to do with barnsleyboy's original question?

[MarkyG82]

I'm sorry @J.R. I bow to your driving superiority.

 

I hate to think what would have happened if you needed to do an emergency stop.

[Winston_Woof]

#thinkingoutloud

should a car fail an MOT  if fitted with "summer" tyres and then presented for test on a dark cold snowy day on the basis that they are not suitable?

answers on a postcard to the usual location

[xman]

On 25/02/2024 at 20:39, Alan_P said:

Just to clarify, mass loads up on the weaker tyre(s) and causes it to lose grip even faster than it would do normally. Not only are you unbalancing the car, but you are making a poorly performing tyre even worse than it would be normally.

The biggest load of tosh I've read in a long time.

 

On 25/02/2024 at 17:35, Alan_P said:

Even worse if it was mixed across an axle.

 

Ditto

[xman]

39 minutes ago, J.R. said:

 

There is no such thing as "standard summer tyres", you have bought into the myth perpetrated to sell winter tyres.

Ok, Mr Pedantic, I'll rephrase, tyres that are not "all season" or "winter" tyres. I think 99% of people reading will understand what I said.

 

[Danoid]

38 minutes ago, Winston_Woof said:

#thinkingoutloud

should a car fail an MOT  if fitted with "summer" tyres and then presented for test on a dark cold snowy day on the basis that they are not suitable?

answers on a postcard to the usual location

It’s not a legal requirement for winter tyres in UK, so impossible for it to fail

[Winston_Woof]

53 minutes ago, Danoid said:

It’s not a legal requirement for winter tyres in UK, so impossible for it to fail

but surely our caring sharing government would make it a legal requirement if it was safer wouldn't they ?

Or are summer tyres just as good in a UK winter than winter or all season tyres?

Isn't the MOT a "safety" check ;o)

[Ootohere]

@Winston_WoofYou will just have one caring sharing Government if you are in England, us in other UK countries have to suffer them and our own Governments.

Arses and elbows confuse them though. 

[Alan_P]

@J.R. and @xman
 

I don’t know how else to explain it, but I’ll give it a try with a simple example:

Hopefully everyone agrees that given the same conditions and speed, a car of a fixed mass generates a set amount of lateral force when taking a corner or bend in the road? When tyres with the same amount of grip are fitted, this force is distributed (relatively) evenly and the work is split. In this scenario, when the car starts to lose traction, the mass is distributed anywhere from 60/40 up to 50/50, front to rear for most modern cars. With the outer tyres doing more of the work obviously.

When tyres of mixed capabilities are fitted, this same force is distributed unevenly at the point of losing grip. What was previously a relatively even share of the work has changed because the tyre with superior grip is nowhere near losing traction. The tyre(s) with lower (weaker) grip now has to deal with more mass and loses traction faster than it would do previously. A sort of pendulum effect.

Bumps, potholes, and spillages on the road can further exacerbate the issue. You guys are obviously experienced, well above average drivers so this only applies to other road users. When I mention mixed capabilities, I’m referring to winter or all-season tyres mixed with summer tyres. Apologies for using industry accepted “summer” terminology. A full set of “summer” tyres is safer than mixing winter or all-season tyres with summer tyres during winter conditions IMO. I’m more than happy for someone to actually explain why they think this is wrong, or I suppose you can just call it “nonsense” and “tosh” again.

As I said before, it’s probably best that we just agree to differ, especially as one of you seem to think winter tyres, or their benefits, are a myth.

[Dieselgate]

Winter (and to a lesser extent, all season) tyres are better than summer tyres in winter.

 

Source: Personal experience.

[xman]

When a car experieces acceleration i.e braking or cornering, load transfer occurs in the opposite (vector) direction of acceleration. e.g. braking in a straight line, load is transferred to the front of the car, the front end dips as load transfer compresses the front springs , the back end lifts as it goes light and the springs extend.

 

Distribution of that load is not dependent on tyre performance or grip capability.

 

When I helped with some brake testing legislation in conjunction with HSE(m) the equations were straightforward, basic physics and maths.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weight_transfer

 

An appreciation of that should help with understanding the limits of mixed tyre combinations and how they likely affect handling under certain scenarios, eg cornering "at the limit"

Edited 27 February by xman

[MarkyG82]

13 hours ago, J.R. said:

 

I wasn't arguing, I was stating a fact.

 

Do you have anything to back this up other than it has been repeated so many times now that it has become recieved wisdom?

 

There is no such thing as "standard summer tyres", you have bought into the myth perpetrated to sell winter tyres.

 

 

 

 

OK.  The fact that you managed 40 years ago is irrelevant now.  Tyre design has changed to go along with the average car.  Cars are heavier and wider tyres help with that.  They are also more fashionable.  Argue about that if you wish but fashion drive markets.

The "standard summer tyre" is absolutely valid.  Just look at manufacturers websites, they often list them as summer, all season, winter, off road.  The R&D over the last few decades has gone into the compounds of the rubbers.  they are more synthetic and more effort has been put into making them perform best in specific conditions but also as safe as possible out of those conditions.

 

Cars are also safer than they were and easier to drive in slippy conditions due to stability systems.  My opinion is that the average driver now is less skilled than 40 years ago and they have to deal with more traffic, more powerful cars, heavier cars, reduced patience.  The list goes on.  Driving like you described above clearly resulted in you getting to your destination unscathed.  I doubt that would be the same had someone near you had a blowout or other unpredictable event.  I will continue to have the best possible tyres on my car for the conditions for everyones safety, not just my own.  The fact that you don't have your winter tyres fitted is irresponsible in my opinion and I'm sure the Gendarme would have similar to say given my experience of being stopped for tyre checks.

[J.R.]

13 hours ago, MarkyG82 said:

I hate to think what would have happened if you needed to do an emergency stop.

 

I did one for the repeated tailgating headlight flashing muppet, the grip was undiminished which was a pleasant surprise to me.

 

Driving sensibly with respect to the conditions especially forward visibility and the water dispersal of my tyres I was far safer than the majority of those overtaking. A small proportion were completely reckless (congenital stupidity probably) and way out beyond them was one driver of a very large Van who was driving far faster than anyone else and far faster than I thought those vehicles were capable of

[xman]

14 hours ago, MarkyG82 said:

I hate to think what would have happened if you needed to do an emergency stop.

 

If he hadn't anticipated the situation and finally just stomped on the brakes then ABS and ESC would have saved him provided it was early enough. They react quicker than even the most experienced driver.

 

On  more recent cars, AEB triggered by radar and cameras would have deployed and intervened. I think AEB is now compulsory on all new cars.

 

A different outcome might be likely if a driver panics and attempts to do something stupid such as spinning the steering wheel in a misguided attempt to drive around a situation without the appropriate knowledge or previously acquired skills.

 

Michelin have done extensive testing and state their tyres remain perfectly safe even at the current 1.6mm wear limit

 

https://whattyre.com/news/michelin-why-we-need-to-test-tyres-when-theyre-worn/

 

https://www.tyrepress.com/2019/07/michelin-wet-grip-testing-at-1-6mm-will-provide-greater-transparency/

 

https://www.michelin.com/en/news/high-performance-tires-up-to-the-legal-wear-level/

Edited 27 February by xman

[Alan_P]

@xman

Load transfer is yet another variable which actually supports having as balanced a set of tyres possible. It’s also not the only thing affecting load, grip or the distribution of traction. If you’re suggesting it’s the only factor or somehow mitigates the use of mixed capability tyres, we will have to agree to differ, again.

You posted some info from Michelin so hopefully you accept their findings and not only when it suits. Have a look at the “Can you mix winter and summer tyres” and “Fitting different tyres on the same axle” sections:

https://www.michelin.co.uk/auto/advice/choose-tyres/mixing-tyres

Here is a little safety video from them with a demo covering traction and inertia (some other variables):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaXXrKFJctU
 

Anyway, I’m complicit in continuing to hijack this thread and this is my last post. In some areas it has degraded into providing anecdotal, singular driving experiences as evidence. Written statements of bizarre “testing” and brake checking people for tailgating is certainly evidence, but not of the type that was intended, I think.

Edited 27 February by Alan_P

[xman]

I give up alan, you seem to be making things up to suit imo flimsy and baseless arguments. So I'll agree to disagree and leave it at that.