Toyota: 0w-8 Engine oil. A vid.

[Ootohere]

 

 

 

 

[Breezy_Pete]

What's your executive summary George, please? OK or not OK? Can't be listening to 16 minutes of that accent.

 

[Ootohere]

Maybe you can put off the sound and use subtitles, like deaf people would or people watching vids while supposed to be working.

 

Car manufacturers will do anything to get Test Results for the efficiency they need.  Like VW Group and 0w 20 FS IV oil.

 

I had a new Euro 5 Toyota iQ. 

They used the same 5w 30 FS oil as the Euro 4 model and then owners of the New emissions vehicles were reporting that fuel economy was no place near that that had shown in their published figures and this resulted in the oil spec being changed to 0w 30FS

[Breezy_Pete]

8 minutes ago, Rooted said:

Maybe you can put off the sound and use subtitles, like deaf people would or people watching vids while supposed to be working.

Maybe you could just say what your impression of the video was?

 

[J.R.]

Impression, he has the right YouTube name.

 

Summary, thin oil, 0W8, car has free oil change and the dealer used the correct grade of genuine oil, nothing shocking, it was a Toyota dealer.

 

I didn't mind the accent, it seemed genuine rather than affected.

[Ootohere]

@Breezy_Pete  My impression is the guy goes to lots of effort and into detail.

 

Also that this is the future of ICE vehicles and for Euro 7 emissions would already of happened if the German Manufacturers had not managed to kick that into the long grass for a while.

Thinner oil will be getting used before we get to 2035 in Europe i expect. 

[J.R.]

Interesting that it appeared to perform better even under severe extended long term load tests above 150°c than thicker oils.

 

As an ex race engine builder I have never followed the recieved wisdom regarding oil pressure, at one time everyone blindly believed 10psi per 1K RPM, things have moved on a little, I have always seen oil pressure as back pressure = less flow and power losses through pumping, as long as there is sufficient oil passing through the crankshaft bearings to create the hydrodynamic cushion then the lower the pressure and greater the oil flow through the dry sump and oil cooler system the better.

 

You only need 0.05 bar(0.75psi) to get oil to the valve train, less actually, that figure is for water 😁

[leolito]

I am going through the effort to adapt to the concept that some modern oils with apparent "decreased" viscosity can perform better than older oils (in older engines!) with a 'higher' viscosity. Strange world we live in ...

Which makes me wonder what the heck to start putting now on 🤭

[chimaera]

Viscosity isn't the only parameter affecting how the oil performs. Modern lubricity additives will allow a lower viscosity oil function well compared to thicker 'conventional' oils. Lower viscosity means less work pumping it around, and more importantly I think it gets oil into all the moving parts faster since you're not waiting as long for the heat to thin it out.

[SuperbTWM]

Don't forget its in the manufacturers interest to get engines to meet the latest emissions requirements by reducing friction and drag, not to allow the engine to last forever. This is the reason we now have variable oil pressure systems for low engine speeds and loads and drive belts that run in oil instead of a tried and tested chain!

 

Not to be pescimistic or anything 😁

[kodiaqsportline]

The world is full of people who know better. Who gives a 5hite what someone coming from a position of ignorance says? A You Tuber is making money from hits and subscribers so it's in their interest to create havoc.

 

I changed the Karoq for a Toyota last year. I couldn't give a *** what the Toyota main dealer uses, it could be Flora cooking oil for all I care. What I do care about is as long as the car is serviced my a main dealer each year, Toyota will warranty the car for 10 years. If I go on what some, here today gone tomorrow, YouTuber says, my car will be warranted for 3yr from the date of registration. It's not rocket science folks.

 

Here endith the lesson.

 

Buy the way, what's all this crap about manufacturers changing the oil spec because the car wasn't achieving it's claimed mpg. No car achieves it's claimed mpg - the results are based on laboratory conditions. The manufacturer doesn't test the car going up and down hills in the rain and cold ...and high winds ...and effects of surrounding traffic ...and different road surfaces ...and with different loads etc etc etc

 

Are people really that gullable?

[leolito]

That people are that gullable, is a fact, yes. But I believe also the issue is that a claim has to be substantiated by fact.

We live by statements made by ourselves to others, and others to ourselves, that have to be validated by what we do.

In my work, when I provide a deliverable to a customer, I am using my skill, experience and capability to make sure it is as correct and valid as it can be, and therefore I can stand reliably behind it. At the same time, my customer knows he can rely on such results to do whatever he does with them, knowing he can always get back to me on the same contents I provide and work forward.

 

Likewise, you choose a product or service by analysis and comparison of its values and features, and based on that make your choice. Yes, there are also people who do not do that, and there are also people who make (very) poor choices, but let's leave them out of the topic at the moment. That fact is that whether is a kg of rice, or is a car, or the speed rating of an Internet service, as a savvy consumer/customer you expect that the manufacturer or supplier is able to comply with ... what was that saying you guys got in the UK? Does what it says in the can? In the tin? Been a long time ....

 

The funny - and worrying - thing about your last paragraph is that manufacturer DO test in most conditions (perhaps less than in earlier times, where build quality and reputation was a high prized effort) but once cars are produced and sold do NOT replicate as well ... and we do not talk only MPG here, but going back to see awful blunders of many manufacturers, makes you wonder what the heck "did they test" at all ... 😶

[leolito]

On 04/05/2024 at 23:18, chimaera said:

Viscosity isn't the only parameter affecting how the oil performs. Modern lubricity additives will allow a lower viscosity oil function well compared to thicker 'conventional' oils. Lower viscosity means less work pumping it around, and more importantly I think it gets oil into all the moving parts faster since you're not waiting as long for the heat to thin it out.

I've read this before, but if not going into technical details I am having trouble understanding this. Now obviously a lower 'W' viscosity does what you say when on cold start (say comparing a 0W/5W versus 10W/15W), but I still cannot imagine how a '20' or '30' grade can resist higher operating temps (say +110C) better than a '50' or '60' grade oil, with whatever additives.

I've looked for clear and univocal literature on this, but I haven't found any yet.

In the past I have used mid-level performance cars (~330/360hp) and always used oils in the 10W60 range. People with racier pedigrees than me stand by this with years and years and fairly faultless racing and hi-speed performance.

While facts seem to indicate so, I still cannot believe easily that all of a sudden of this is gone in the past, a a 0W20 can magically perform equally, or better ...

[Ootohere]

Test results might be far off real world.  the old EU /European testing & WLTP.  

But still VW Group & others needed to cheat the testing. 

 

The Motor Manufacturers are Global and there is the EPA in the USA, and in other World Regions they could not car less about the WLTP because the World Harmonised Test is not accepted all around the World they way that is done.

 

Toyota did have to act on the figures they gave in the change from Euro 4 to Euro 5 and did do a change of oil spec after the Euro 5 cars were already with customers.

So as much as it might be a nonsense there are those that might not bother to look into things talking nonsense.

It was not just fuel consumption figures and the cost to owners, it was emissions figures that were false / inaccurate / fiddled / cheated.

 

http://bbc.co.uk/news/business-29887117

 

This was after the reveal of the 2015 defeat device scandal.   This was VW, SEAT  tested at VW,s chosen facilities, not any Skoda,s.

http://autocar.co.uk/car-news/business/vw-emissions-scandal-nine-vw-vehicles-have-false-co2-ratings

Euro 6 emissions cars. Sales were suspended and some bought back and scrapped. Or Exported to where it might not matter.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 8 May by Ootohere

[Ootohere]

As to Youtube and clicks and peoples opinions.

Pre Youtube videos, really pre Internet / World wide web, there were people that paid attention to things and their vehicles and remember what happened when.

If you got a new Toyota in 2010 in the EU / UK or other world regions you might remember, or really not give a damn.  Leave it to the dealership, they know best.

Well some worked at dealerships and not just out front where the BS is at it,s greatest.

Or in the Media Department of the Manufacturers, or in the Motoring Press where adverts are more important than impartial reviews or tests.

eg Haymarket Media Group.  Heycar. 

 

 

 

Edited 8 May by Ootohere

[chimaera]

4 hours ago, leolito said:

I've read this before, but if not going into technical details I am having trouble understanding this. Now obviously a lower 'W' viscosity does what you say when on cold start (say comparing a 0W/5W versus 10W/15W), but I still cannot imagine how a '20' or '30' grade can resist higher operating temps (say +110C) better than a '50' or '60' grade oil, with whatever additives.

I've looked for clear and univocal literature on this, but I haven't found any yet.

In the past I have used mid-level performance cars (~330/360hp) and always used oils in the 10W60 range. People with racier pedigrees than me stand by this with years and years and fairly faultless racing and hi-speed performance.

While facts seem to indicate so, I still cannot believe easily that all of a sudden of this is gone in the past, a a 0W20 can magically perform equally, or better ...

I'm not sure what your knowledge level is, so I'll go back a few steps.

 

Oil gets thinner as it warms up, quite a bit through the temperature an engine will span from cold start up to normal operating temperature. A single grade oil that works well in a cold engine will be poor at operating temperature. If this single grade oil is optimised for normal operating conditions, it's going to be like treacle in a cold engine.

 

Multigrade oil overcomes this by changing viscosity characteristics as it heats up, resulting in a constant effective viscosity through the temperature range.

 

Oil works as a lubricant by creating a film between the two parts so that they don't rub on each other. Lubricity is a measure of how well the oil does this. Lubricity is a function of viscosity and the oil's chemistry. Thicker oils create a thicker film and improve separation between the parts (up to the limit of the tolerances between the parts).

 

Oil chemistry looks at improving the oil's ability to prevent contact and friction at a given film thickness (basically making it more slippery). This is a way to give low viscosity oils better lubricity. It's a combination of basic oil chemistry and additive packages.

 

Lower viscosity oils take less energy to pump around, reducing parasitic losses. They will also make it into all of the oil galleries faster from startup, so you improve cold running protection. Manufacturers like this because they can improve efficiency in the first instance, and protect the engine better from ignorant owners in the second.

 

An additional consequence of lower viscosity is that it allows tighter tolerances between parts which can improve performance.

 

So that 0W8 oil is going to be pretty thin all the way through the operating temperature range, and provided the chemistry is good enough, it should be more reliable and efficient.

 

A side note on test cycles: they are not a reliable prediction of how the vehicle will perform on the road due to the variation of real world conditions from the test. What they do give is a basis for comparison: a better WLTP figure will on average mean better fuel consumption/lower emissions on the road. So if Toyota's test with the 0W8 has improved its official test rating, then it will also have improved its real world performance by some amount. Even if the test is done in bad faith by the manufacturer, basic physics still dictates that improvement in the test figure will improve real world too.

[Ootohere]

^^^ 

& VW Group were behind others in getting engines WLTP Certificated and had to delay delivery of vehicles. Bunkering them.

 

The 1.5 TSI ACT Manuals were a problem from the old testing to the WLTP, so they do a Engine Management tweak for the WLTP and stuff the drivers buying the cars and getting landed with a Lack or Torque and 'Kangerooing'.

So they eventually had to admit to cars being unsafe, take some in and lend other cars for months.  Then come up with a Software Update that still has some ars running like sh!te.

 

They never had to Retest vehicles with the Re-map though.    VW are the ones that get away with whatever, because the German Authorities answer to the EU and who is the boss in the EU? 

[leolito]

On 08/05/2024 at 13:36, chimaera said:

I'm not sure what your knowledge level is, so I'll go back a few steps...

Sorry to get back on this late. All is fine, I got no problem following and if I fall behind will ask again.

What you have described (very well) is perfect for the work of the oil as a lubricant in both cold and warm/semi-hot normal condition, and in readiness for engine-start (both cold and hot start, especially cold). I am sure compared to 10Wxx/15Wxx/20Wxx oils a 0Wxx is terms ahead.

Absolutely no doubt about pumping losses and efficiency, which I am sure is the leading reason behind manufacturer's decisions.

This is clear, as it is that a thin oil will be all the way through the operating temperature range - but

 

but ... what I have trouble understanding is how the 'thinner' oil is able to perform equally well in the area of 'cooling' the engine metal, which is its other role, once temps start really to go high and the engine gets working hard. We are talking high RPMs, high load (say highway, maybe loaded or towing), adverse factors (add summer heat, A/C on).

Historically, even good multi-grade oils would tend to degrade when forced to work at a higher temp, and because of this (some) manufacturers and/or aftermarket specialists have proposed the use of multi-grade oils with wide operating range (say 10W60).

 

So while I do agree with the concern on cold starts and viscosity on cold/mid-temp operation, I am still finding weak explanations dealing with how these wonderful new lubricants perform in the condition that to me matters most, which is exactly the one mentioned above: high effort, high load, sustained performance, in adverse conditions.

 

I might be stupid, but setting aside ALL the manufacturer's reasons and data (after all, once engine is out of warranty he will not give a thought about it), I do not grasp in what a 0W20 (or lower) is better than a hi-performance 0W40, 5W50 or 10W60 (or 5W60) multi-grade oil.

Not talking long-life oils either, just some philosophy on manufacturer's decisions. The cars surely work anyway ...

 

[chimaera]

The oil's performance as a coolant is a function of its specific heat capacity, and I doubt that would change very much between different oil grades.

 

Thermal stability is a function of the oil's chemistry, not its viscosity, so clever chemistry can create a thermally stable low viscosity oil.

 

Consider also that modern engines are designed to keep the engine temperature within a pretty tight range regardless of load or environmental conditions. As long as the cooling system is suitably rated to deal with the heat load from the engine, the oil is unlikely to get too hot and break down.

[leolito]

Clear enough. Got it, thanks ☺️