Skoda Superb Estate LPG conversion

[LostShepherd]

Hi,

 

I am wondering if any one has converted the L&K 2016 Superb Estate (or any other Superb Estate) to LPG, the 276Bhp 4x4 model ?

 

I have a chance to get one to replace my 2015 2ltr DSG Elegance estate (which I love) but as a diesel I cannot convert it. I do a reasonable amount of miles with a 120mile round trip commute 2 to 3 times a week.

 

I really love the look & spec of the L&K and the miles are low, my only concern is that I could get a 21 IV 1.4 tsi hybrid for about the same money and it's 3 years old vs 8.

 

Performance is important to me though as about a 1/4 of my journey is on smaller roads where I want to be able to overtake quickly and safely.

 

I have 2 LPG garages on my commute route as well so even with the reduced mpg on the 2ltr it would still be way cheaper in the long run.

 

Any thoughts on the LPG conversion or the IV vs L&K conundrum in general?

 

Cheers,

LS

[numskull]

Personally, I’d say with the installation cost, the loss of performance from the LPG and the doubtful long-term viability of LPG in general (what do you do if said LPG garages stop retailing it?) I’d’ve thought this would be a no-no. I ran a Mondeo with LPG for a while and it was bloody awful - terrible performance and you’d only get about 100 miles from the LPG too….and no spare wheel either, unless you wanted no boot space. 
Depending on the openness of the roads you commute, I could foresee you could get about 35mpg on 99oct petrol with the 280 on a 60 mile trip, possibly more in warmer weather. That would be reduced to 23/25 on shorter commutes. 

[MarkyG82]

The iV would do the power you need (especially with a tune) but is a heavy car for front wheel drive. It's great for lots of short trips with the odd longer one. Longer trips 2-3 times a week is not where the hybrid shines economy wise. They are very comfortable for both be in and drive though.

As above, the money you spend on conversion plus what you lose in resale value would buy a lot of petrol. And you'd have lower performance. 

 

What's wrong with the TDI?

[LostShepherd]

Cheers for the responses.

 

@Numskull In terms of the performance a small dip at this level wouldn't bother me tbh it'll still be a big step up from the 170BHP I am on at the minute.

 

I was expecting a 60ltr LPG tank to fill to about 48ltrs and to get 85% efficiency in it compared to petrol, so hopefully that the conversion would pay for itself reasonably quickly. But I might be dreaming not sure.

 

I'm honestly not too worried about the LPG disappearing from my local garage it's family run and used a lot, they've assured me they have no intent to remove it and I have a back up station further down the road.

 

@MarkyG82

 

Cheers for the info re. the IV, sounds like it's maybe not the ideal motorway commute car 

 

Nothing wrong with the TDI other than the cost of diesel, £152.9 with us consistently whereas the LPG is 80-85p consistently. I love the TDI but the extra power and high spec of the L&K is very tempting, I'm definitely falling into heart over head  territory I think.

 

My plan would be to keep the L&K until it basically falls apart, I'm not sure how long you would tend to get from a well maintained and carefully driver 2016 Superb Estate.

[Ootohere]

?

How much a litre is the LPG compared to 95 ron unleaded or 97 / 99 ron min super unleaded? 

 

Speak to the installer.

 

I used to run V8,s on LPG.    LPG only no petrol starting and no petrol carried.

 

*Engines built by RPI Engineering to run on LPG though. Used in Land Rovers, Morgans and even Ultima race cars. * 

 

LPG is not less powerful,  it is 110 octane. 

 But you might well need double the amount of litres compared to petrol.   

 

**When i ran LPG it was less than 1/2 the price per litre than petrol and for 9 litres of LPG i got more MPG than 4.5 litres of petrol would have taken a v8. **

(@ ASDA not only was petrol £1 a litre and LPG 50 pence, paid with an ASDA credit card you got 2 pence a litre off.)

Then LPG has no Markers like Red Diesel had. Which is maybe why some run it, like to Military Shows etc where they might not fill the tank at a filling station.

I got about 3 miles a litre from the LPG, even towing a Car Transporter and car.

9 litres x 3 = 27 mile.  a Gallon of petrol would not have taken me 27 miles.

 

As to the Tank.

You fill to 80% because that is what tanks fill to for expansion.

 

The Ferry from Scotland to Northern Ireland was an issue.  I never got on. They looked at the Diesel Land Rover, they wanted to dip or open the tanks.

I told them look at the engine it is a petrol running on LPG. 

 I did not use the 'Bomb' word luckily.

 

120 litre and a 90 litre LPG tank.  I missed one ferry then they started guff about the car on the trailer, running on petrol, no Tachograph if i was Towing for Gain or Reward and sh!te.

I told them to spin on it.

 

http://v8engines.com

 

 

 

 

Edited 30 April by Ootohere

[J.R.]

1 hour ago, Ootohere said:

LPG is not less powerful,  it is 110 octane. 

 But you might well need double the amount of litres compared to petrol.   

 

That is an oxymoron!

 

1 hour ago, Ootohere said:

for 9 litres of LPG i got more MPG than 4.5 litres of petrol would have taken a v8.

 

That does not make sense, did you mean "more miles"?

[Ootohere]

@J.R.

Better mpg per the same price spent on fuel. 

 

It is a higher octane and you can get more power from an engine built to run on LPG.

 

As the quantity, weight etc. between Petrol 95 or 99 ron & LPG it is what it is.

   All i know is that in Countries where you can not increase the engine Capacity you can stick with say the Original 3.5 V8 Classic Range rover and get much more power running on LPG. 

 

That is the customers RPI build engines for in lots of cases. 

I bought 2 demonstrators from them. 

 

 

Edited 30 April by Ootohere

[numskull]

Well, I really don’t think you can compare a high performance, 2.0 4cyl turbocharged engine, to a small capacity V8 and I’d be surprised if it would be a particularly successful implementation, but you pays your money.
I disliked the LPG experience albeit that was a long time ago and if the OP wants to invest their hard-earned, good luck to them. On that point, what is the cost of an LPG conversion these days?

[Ootohere]

You certainly can not compare an engine built to run on LPG and not petrol.

 

But a built to be Duel Fuel (Bi-Fuel like a Dacia makes sense for some, or others much more than a conversion IMO. 

 

Then there is the price of the LPG you are paying and a conversion, and testing / servicing of the LPG.

 

Not a good economic choice for the OP IMHO.     A remap and buy the fuel or keep the car you have and remap.

If passing vehicles safely is the aim, then a Superb is hardly a sports car, but normal commuter / city cars can accelerate ok if from 30 mph.

 

 

Edited 30 April by Ootohere

[LostShepherd]

Cheers its certainly food for thought, for me it's a balancing act between keeping a good performance level and minimising costs. The LPG in a higher performing car can provide that I think.

 

I thought about the Dacia a nice cheap well thought out solution, just couldn't live with the performance and comfort levels in them.

 

My current superb is pretty nippy, they might be an estate but they can move, I think folk are often surprised by the pickup.

 

I spoke to the installer this morning he's installing a conversion on a 400bhp Audi ATM so I can only guess there are others out there having the same thought re balancing performance and fuel economy.

 

At this stage I think I am set on trying this my only real concern is the age at 8 years old. I think the economics balance out of you hold the car for long enough which I always do, have never given up a car until about 7 years of ownership, will an 8 year old car last another 7 years though?

Edited 30 April by LostShepherd

[Winston_Woof]

4 hours ago, LostShepherd said:

 

 

Cheers for the info re. the IV, sounds like it's maybe not the ideal motorway commute car 

 

I have a MY18 1.4TSi (non IV) and its absolutely fine on motorway runs. Turn on the ACC and relax. Averaging around 43mpg overall mixed usage

[LostShepherd]

@Winston_Woof sry read it wrong thought you had the hybrid. I get about 43mpg out of my DSI as well.

Edited 30 April by LostShepherd

[LostShepherd]

@numskull Rough cost quoted by the installer was £1800 plus vat.

 

On my miles and current prices I should be breaking even in 18months on the conversion.

Edited 30 April by LostShepherd

[Ootohere]

^^^ Doubt that very much. 

?

How many miles a year do you do?

Have you had an insurance quote yet with and without a LPG conversion? 

 

Is the Audi really having the conversion for anything to do with Economy!

Edited 30 April by Ootohere

[LostShepherd]

Ok we'll have to agree to disagree on that one then, outside estimate is 24months.

 

Insurance wise it cost £13 per annum provided it is done with a registered certified installer and is recorded on drivelpg co.uk, so no big cost to it on that front at least.

 

I've no idea why the Audi is being converted, I'm only guessing, the installer only mentioned it when I prompted him by asking if there were any implications for higher bhp cars, he gave that one as an example, I assume as it was fresh in his head.

 

 

Edited 30 April by LostShepherd

[LostShepherd]

@Ootohere I meant £13 extra a year for insurance not £13 total, would be great though if it were that!

[Ootohere]

It is worth doing some man maths.

 

If you do 15,000 miles a year in the TDI and get 10 miles a litre, so pretty much 45 mpg then that is 1,500 litres.

@155 pence a litre,

£2,320 ish.

 

If in the petrol getting 7.5 miles a litre. 34 mpg. 469 gallons. 2,131 litres.   Say Super Unleaded @ 155 pence a litre.

£3,300 ish. 

 

How much can that be reduced by if you spend £2,160 on a LPG conversion and buy less petrol and LPG @ 80 pence a litre.?

 

I do not know.  

 

If you get LPG from a Farmer that has a Grain Drier or the likes, you save lots.  But then that is not legal. 

Edited 30 April by Ootohere

[Winston_Woof]

25 minutes ago, Ootohere said:

It is worth doing some man maths.

 

If you do 15,000 miles a year in the TDI and get 10 miles a litre, so pretty much 45 mpg then that is 1,500 litres.

@155 pence a litre,

£2,320 ish.

 

If in the petrol getting 7.5 miles a litre. 34 mpg. 469 gallons. 2,131 litres.   Say Super Unleaded @ 155 pence a litre.

£3,300 ish. 

 

How much can that be reduced by if you spend £2,160 on a LPG conversion and buy less petrol and LPG @ 80 pence a litre.?

 

I do not know.  

 

If you get LPG from a Farmer that has a Grain Drier or the likes, you save lots.  But then that is not legal. 

working on the presumption that LPG mpg is 20% lower than petrol then based on 34 mpg(petrol)  then that would be 27.2 mpg (LPG)

So thats 551 gallons / 2503 litres of LPG to do the same 15000 miles which at £0.80 per litre is £2003

Which is approx £317 less per year than the diesel so about 6.9 years to pay for the LPG conversion

Its approx £1297 cheaper than petrol so slightly less than 2 years payback (higher if your petrol MPG is better than 34mpg)

(think I got that right)

 

Edited 30 April by Winston_Woof

[Ootohere]

Possibly might as well have a 1.4 TSI ACT and remap if required.

Same MPG available as the TDI then. 

 

PS

You will not run the engine with the conversion to LPG all the time on LPG. 

Edited 30 April by Ootohere

[Winston_Woof]

9 minutes ago, Ootohere said:

Possibly might as well have a 1.4 TSI ACT and remap if required.

Same MPG available as the TDI then. 

 

PS

You will not run the engine with the conversion to LPG all the time on LPG. 

yup, Im averaging 43mpg from my 1.4TSi ACT and as you say you wont be using LPG 100% of the time so the payback period is probably closer to 5 years  there as well

[J.R.]

6 hours ago, Ootohere said:

Better mpg per the same price spent on fuel. 

 

I think you mean better miles = goes further on the same fuel spend rather than mpg.

 

OK, I take that back, others seem to be converting from litres of LPG to gallons and using MPG.

 

Makes little sense to me when the energy value of a litre of LPG will vary so wildly with pressure and hence temperature.

 

Bottled gas is sold by the KG and I think LPG delivered to a Citerne also,  I have never worked out why they chose to use litres for road fuel, maybe for people to convert to MPG. Probably to "drown the fish" as we say in France!! (muddy the waters)

Edited 30 April by J.R.

[LostShepherd]

Its a good plan to run figures like that so thanks for taking the time all and giving examples 👍much appreciated and it made me work out my own sums.

 

So my mileage is more like 20k per year, but can actually be a lot more as my better half likes to take the Skoda for the commute when I am WFH as it is more comfortable, but I'll keep it on the low side initially for this so we'll say 20k miles.

These are the average fuel prices here, Petrol £1.45, Diesel £1.52 (consistently 5-10p > Unleaded for some reason) , LPG 80p, working off a 50ltr tank for a baseline. Assuming mpg figures of 35 Petrol, 45 Diesel & 29.5 LPG.

 

Assuming a quality LPG installation (guys I plan to use have a very good reputation) I found that LPG saves me about £600 a year over the diesel, its 40 fills of diesel V 61 fills of LPG assuming a 50ltr tank (I know the LPG tank doesn't hold the full amount spec'd, as it has to allow for expansion, so it might be > 61 physical fills but the same volume of fuel if that makes sense!). I suspect my actual mileage is closer to 25k though, which then starts bringing me up to the £800 range of saving annually. So it probably will be 3 years before I get a return on it, which I can live with happily as when I get a nice car I tend to hold onto it forever. I think that is the scenario in which it does work, when you keep the car and benefit from the low priced fuel for several years. I'm really not expecting any quick returns on it, which is why its important to go for a car I'll be happy with for a long time hence the L&K and the performance aspect.

 

I know there are no guarantees on LPG availability or price, but they have been predicting its demise for 20 years and there are still plenty of stations selling it and now we have Dacia, a major car manufacturer shipping new factory ready bi fuel models in the uk, I can't imagine they would be doing if they thought it was about to disappear. The price will always be better relative to petrol and diesel as long as the government keeps acknowledging it as a clean fuel, no guarantees there either, so there is a risk that has to be accepted with eyes wide open.

 

If the decision was just based on economy I wouldn't even be thinking of the 1.4TSI or any superb in fact, I'd be going straight to the Dacia, so there is more than costs at play in the calculation, its also getting to have the spec on the L&K along with the performance, but I don't think I'd want to run that car solely on petrol as it would be expensive, why would I when I have an LPG garage less than a mile away and on my commuting route. Can't even begin to think about pure electric as I just don't believe the tech is quite there yet and it is still just way too expensive.

 

I was hoping some other Superb drivers would have done this LPG conversion but it seems to not be the case, if it does all happen I'll try and get accurate figures about performance, costs etc and general hassle, was it worth it etc.

 

 

Edited 30 April by LostShepherd

[Ootohere]

Dacia stopped selling Bi-fuel cars in the UK, did they restart?

 

There is a thread in the review section.

 

@J.R. They only sold road  fuel in litres in the UK because it went EU Light.  Not that everyone knows what a gallon is anyway.

We never went to kph / km,s, properly metric, just a bit of things with decimalisation.

  Mix & Match & Rule Britannia / Imperial Gallons, & the USA can do their own ones. & quarts.

[LostShepherd]

@Ootohere Still selling them as far as I know, you can get the new Duster and Sandero \ Step as Bi Fuel in 2023\4 models. I went to try them out a couple of weeks back to see if they would fit the bill, just couldn't take the 1ltr engines, not knocking them though they are a brilliant price point.

Edited 30 April by LostShepherd

[leolito]

Cannot compare prices as we are far far away but I am a longtime happy supporter  of LPG, it is a valid alternative fuel, cheaper, cleaner, and otherwise wasted during the oil extraction/processing. Pity it is not so supported as it could be.

I have been running various cars on LPG for more than 20 years now, a few installed by yours truly as well when I was in the trade.

Yeah, there are a number of drawbacks: cost of installation but especially QUALITY of the installation (I cannot stress this enough), fact that you have a second complete fuel system which requires proper calibration (another no no with most installers), a minimal loss of luggage space/spare tire (which can be a problem in the Micra, but not really on a large car like a Superb), range and refuelling is not a drama if you can plan it accordingly, and you have to schedule a couple extra tasks in the servicing (e.g. LPG filter replacement, and so on).

But the pluses are absolutely worth ... at the local prices, running the 280 on "live" petrol costs me more or less the same than my venerable P38 4.6HSE with its horrible gas guzzling RV8 per km. In other words, the ~12km/lt I make on the Superb (long haul) is compatible with the 5-6km/lt of the RR with a fuel around 60% cheaper than petrol - in my case.

I had before an A6 Avant with the 2.8 193cv and was averaging 8-10km/lt which was in cost terms what an A4 1.9TDI would cost, but with a different level of performance and sophistication.

Anyway, each makes its choice.

 

The Superb offers a nice hole for a tank, I recon a 60lt fits easily if not 64/66 (got to measure how deep it is), which allows for a good capacity and range. My LPG colleague/installer mentioned for my engine type (DNF) only Prins is available as an option, and a system would set me back around 1500 eur. Must consider this runs at a 5-15% proportion to petrol, unlike indirect injection engines which can be fully switched. The double injector engines cannot be converted to run on LPG, at least this I was told.

Even with this consideration, for a long run the advantage is considerable.

I do not see as a drawback the "losing" of a spare tire, I use the Micra for a runabout in town since 3yrs/36k km and the spare sleeps in the garage since then. Same for the RR and my previous Audi, except when I make a long trip and then in that case I load it up, yes it bothers and takes some space, but you tend to forget when the wallet thanks you ....

 

I still got warranty left on mine so for now I just go along, but will see in the future.

 

PS: to the OP, I think for the driving you need to do you will hate the iV with a passion. That small capacity engine on such a large body and FWD is not for that use. Today I made 420km in exactly the type of roads you describe, and the capability to 'point and shoot' given by a more than decent powerplant is simply almost exhilarating.

I hope I can remove the "almost" once I deal with the laggy pedal 🤪😝