But do you feel that having passed his test he has nothing further to learn and his driving cannot be improved in anyway?

No, but I feel that he would need instruction to learn more. Trial and error on the road is not something I'd advocate at all. As you say; Dire consequences.

I was just referring to the fact that trying to learn these techniques from 'a mate you've heard talk about it in the pub (or online;))' or from a YouTube video is asking for trouble. In the same way I've been learning Taekwondo for the past 6 years - You could buy a book but it's never going to teach you the way a qualified instructor will be able to.

Saying that offsiding can benefit your driving etc. is all well and good but without the tuition to know when and where then you can just be making yourself a more dangerous hazard on the road - something both yourself and Chris have discussed here.

As the original post was asking why no one did it, I was just trying to place the idea that maybe a lot of people don't do it because they do not know how or why, and the best way to learn that is not to go out and try it because someone said its an 'advanced technique', but to actually go and seek an IAM or RoSPA qualification so you know how to use the technique properly. I suppose in essence I saw the original post as saying 'why don't more people do this, as it's better' and I don't feel it's better unless you can utilise it safely so wouldn't encourage people to try without supervision, that's all.

IME those people are never "let out" because they lack the cojones to actually turn on their indicator when they want out! "Your" lack of assertiveness is not my problem.

Sadly I have been that person and I have sat there patiently with my indicator on for minutes at a time waiting for a gap to develop. I have also tried to create a gap by edging out but I'm always amazed how people close ranks to prevent it. Maybe people are more courteous around your way and realise that letting cars out and keeping the traffic flowing won't actually affect their journey time.

Chris

Sadly I have been that person and I have sat there patiently with my indicator on for minutes at a time waiting for a gap to develop. I have also tried to create a gap by edging out but I'm always amazed how people close ranks to prevent it. Maybe people are more courteous around your way and realise that letting cars out and keeping the traffic flowing won't actually affect their journey time.

Chris

With the note that it covers a considerable amount of time, as well as area, "around my way" in this context would include M5 North of Taunton. and anywhere North of M6 J1 on weekdays, and pretty much every other motorway bar the M4 East from Bristol on weekends. I'll accept that your mileage may vary though.

With the note that it covers a considerable amount of time, as well as area, "around my way" in this context would include M5 North of Taunton. and anywhere North of M6 J1 on weekdays, and pretty much every other motorway bar the M4 East from Bristol on weekends. I'll accept that your mileage may vary though.

Mine is just based on rush hour traffic on M27/M3/A34/A303 so presumably when the traffic density is at its highest and everyone wants to get home. I try and avoid the main roads when driving for pleasure

Chris

Mine is just based on rush hour traffic on M27/M3/A34/A303 so presumably when the traffic density is at its highest and everyone wants to get home. I try and avoid the main roads when driving for pleasure

Chris

Fair enough; the only one of those I've even come close to at that time is M3 as the evening rush hour's tailing off.

Interesting this came up on another forum and one of the police instructors advised the following:

Sec 2/3 RTA refer to careful/reckless/dangerous driving.

The general consensus was that the only problem where undertaking was concerned would be if the people being undertaken were inconvenienced in some way and forced to change course or direction.

An example of this is where you are in lane 1 and there is a lorry some way in the distance also in lane 1. In lane 2, there is a car travelling slower than you are (presumably staying in lane 2 because of the lorry) so the police would not have a problem with you undertaking so long as you had plenty of time to get into lane 2 before the lorry. Where this situation becomes more complicated, however, is when you have to factor in lane 3 traffic which may also be returning to lane 2 after overtaking the car you are undertaking. You also have to factor in that the chap in lane 2 may "wake up" and decide he should be in lane 1 as you're passing him so you need to make sure he's aware you're there.

With so many variables it can be very hard to plan for and I'd only do it if I was 100% sure of the outcome.

Chris

I don't follow how we get from cutting corners on an empty road, to undertaking, where there are clearly other road users. 2 wrongs do not make a right. ie middle muppets shouldn't be there, but you shouldn't undertake unless entering queuing traffic, and it can't be helped.

I do detest middle lane muppets, even on a clear m-way they still sit there, that's my lane..

If the road is clear and I can see that there is no traffic then I will cut the corner.

It is relatively safe to do, at night you can usually see headlights.

Daytime I am more cautious though especially on blind bends.

Generally though if its clear and safe to do so, you can cut the corner as it keeps the car planted and smooth.

My friend goes white knuckle when I have done this.

He tends to stick rigidly between the lines and IMO brakes a little too harshly on fast flowing roads before bends.

Each to their own though. Its what style you feel most comfortable with.

As for middle lane muppets. It is stupid but my mate says if its not causing an obstruction then whats the harm?

I can see his view at times as some people will not let you change lane despite having your indicator flashing for what seems like ages but not using correct lane discipline really annoys me.

It is relatively safe to do, at night you can usually see headlights.

The word *usually* here is the problem though. I'd like to have guarantees that it's safe to do it which means that I rarely chose to cut corners at night unless I am 100% sure I can see the corner, through the corner (including the road surface which might give indications of severity of the corner, amount of grip available, debris/dead animals on the carriageway) and also where I'm going to "land".

Doing it during the day is much easier because our sight is designed for use in good light conditions which means we can see further and are better and quicker able to judge our surroundings. At night, it's a whole other ball game....

Chris

Is this a confusion of 2 different concepts?

Off-siding is taking the "wrong" side of the road into a left hander, to extend your vanishing point, and needs to be done with caution, simply because you're in potential conflict with a vehicle you can't see, so you need to be slow enough to be able to change your speed and line enough to move back over before you get half-way to your vanishing point.

Straight lining is the practice of clipping apices, usually on right-handers or through series of short duration corners. It can be used in the face of oncoming traffic, as long as it's clear that you will be back on the appropriate side of the road before you could come into conflict.

Given this, do either of you think you need to modify your last?

not wanting to add any fuel to the fire, but i did an advanced driving course recently and had a few problems with the whoel offsiding thing. I have been involved with 1 1/2 accidents (if 1/2 an accident is possible) where the person in the on coming traffic cut the corner and hit/clipped my car. I will cut a corner if suitable but in everyday driving i just keep my distance and speed to something resonably suitable and don't offside.

i will overtake on a suitable straight piece of road without a hesitation, but offsiding on windey bits of road serve no perpose and might pee off the person infront! most people seem to have a wierd irritance at being overtaken on a 'single carridge way'

I say usually easier at night as if I'm alone on an nsl road I flick to full beam which not only enable me to see that little bit farther but reach the corner before the car so if other drivers are observant they'll see the light and take appropriate action.

But I can see your logic Scooby. Daytime does give a better indication of the corner and conditions. I was just using the clear dry night scenario and assuming vehicle is well maintained.

Think i went slightly off topic.

I cut a few corners on my way to work but then I can see the road ahead fairly well through the trees.

Lewist123:

In your first paragraph, the collisions were the result of someone not looking far enough ahead, and trying to straight-line where they didn't have road space (or maybe even a sightline?).

In the second, you seem to be confusing straight-lining and offsiding. I agree that offsiding is rarely of use, unless you're in terrain where it moves the vanishing point at surface level significantly, but you can see other vehicles from much further away.

Straight-lining, used correctly, allows you to maintain speed and drive more smoothly (reduced acceleration and braking, and shorter periods of reduced lateral G loading).

Finally, I agree about the "wierd irritation at being overtakin on single carriageway". I suspect this is a mixture of 2 factors:-

a) A fond belief that they are a "good driver", and therefore that anyone who is trying to go faster must be a "reckless lunatic" and "driving too fast".

A lack of any, never mind adequate, situational awareness, so that they're actually not aware that you were going 50% faster than them to catch them, and have been following them for 5 minutes!

I agree with your summary, Ken.

As an additional point, offsiding is also of use where you have a line of traffic in front of you and you're looking for "landing spots" when planning an overtaking strategy. It also gives an unobstructed view of the road ahead to see how it lies, hazards, and what traffic is oncoming. Obviously if you're in a line of traffic, it tends to be a partial offside to discourage the car behind from assuming you're overtaking and moving into your space), but if at the back of a queue I'd happily move completely to the offside which will give the best view.

Chris

Thanks Chris. I hadn't thought of "moving out for a better view" as offsiding per se, but I can see why some bodies would consider it to be off-siding. Actually, on that basis, I offside more than I'd previously thought!

Anyone care to answer this one for me?

This is something I admit to doing that I think is wrong. I only do it when I am on my way to work very, very early in the morning when there is next to no traffic about.

There is a dual carriageway that is about one mile long that I have to travel on. The way I approach it is from a link road that is a two laner aswell with traffic lights at the entrance of the dual. My ultimate goal is to be in the right hand lane at the end of the dual carriageway in order to take the third exit on the roundabout. So, this is how I normally drive it......approach and then proceed up the dual in the left hand lane until I am almost at the top and then I move over into the right hand lane in order to approach the roundabout at the end. No probs.....

This is what sometimes happens.....I drive onto the link road and see someone sitting at the red light in the right hand lane waiting to get onto the dual with nobody else in sight :confused: This person then proceeds up the dual at 40mph in the right hand lane with no other traffic around. I end up using the left hand lane to get around them, but stay in it for as long as I can until I move over to position myself for the roundabout.

That to me says I'm undertaking and I'm wrong in doing so (I would never do this unless the road was empty) would I get the book thrown at me?

That to me says I'm undertaking and I'm wrong in doing so (I would never do this unless the road was empty) would I get the book thrown at me?

You're only legally allowed to undertake if the undertakee is signalling right or if you're in a queue of traffic. if what you are doing is safe and not inconveniencing anyone, I can't really see it being a problem. In the situation where there's no-one else about, does it really make any difference which lane you are in?

Chris

It makes a difference if I get caught yes

It makes a difference if I get caught yes

But if there's no-one around, who will catch you?

Chris

Pixi, what you're doing is technically wrong as you present it, but, if they're turning right as well, or you're out-dragging them off the lights without speaking to them (so you can't have "organised" anything), then it becomes more or less legal I think.

Just thought I'd post what RoSPA say about straight lining...

When you are driving round bends and corners, and not overtaking you should not cross marked centre lines and should not cut corners when entering marked junctions. RoSPA Advanced Drivers and Riders believe that to do so is potentially dangerous because such actions may be the result of entering the hazard too fast and may confuse oncoming and following drivers. This view is supported by The Highway Code. If anything untoward happened during such a manoeuvre the driver might be seen to be at fault and might then blame RoSPA Advanced Drivers and Riders for teaching or condoning this action. If there are no centre markings then some movement over the centre of the road may be acceptable

IMO there is some truth in the RoSPA quote (if you have to straight-line in the face of oncoming traffic due to your speed you're driving too fast), but it's rather marred by a motivation which seems to be the avoidance of potential liability to RoSPA, rather than the promotion of advanced driving.

Which is part of the reason I sought education beyond RoSPA As someone pointed out in another discussion on this a freshly tarmac'd road could be straight-lined quite safely on a RoSPA test, yet once they apply paint to it, it is no longer acceptable.

Chris

Or, as "Police, Camera, Sanctimonious Drivel" would have it, it is safe and legal to overtake over a blind brow on fresh tarmac, but dangerous to do so on a solid white line which only exists for reasons of symmetry with one prohibiting overtaking in the opposite direction on the entry to the bend you're exitting.

:wrthless:

Typical Swedish contry road (probably with a 70 km/h or 44mph speed limit so I would most likely be driving at 50 or so...

Here I would cut the first bend - unless I was comparing different steering techniques. If I didn't cut I would feel downright stupid. NB Right hand driving in Sweden!

But had this road been in the UK (LHD) I would not cut the second bend since I cannot safely see what's behind the next one

As I understand Swedish regulations, it's also perfectly legal. However, should there be the slightest risk that oncoming traffic will be disturbed or obstructed in any way, I mustn't cross the line.

I wouldn't cut the second one either. It's covered by the adage "position to improve a view you already have, not to gain a view where you don't".