PD170 DPF problems after injector recall?

[shark_90]

Hi all

We have noticed that some cars that have had their DPFs removed by us have been smoking more after having the new recall injectors fitted. We recently decided to go through the service manuals and check the mechanical setup of the injectors when we had a particularly problematic car in, and found that they were quite a long way outside of the specifications set out in the service manual.

This particular car was smoking and misfiring at cold start and smoking when driven or revved stood still. Many other cars have been smoking at cold start and show a grey/white smoke at idle. When remapped these cars often smoke more than usual and more than before the recall and we have spent countless hours retuning and retweaking these cars.

Now that we have found this issue and have checked and rectified the injector setup on several PD170 2.0TDIs we are confident that this is an widespread issue which can be easily rectified by having the injectors correctly adjusted. It has been suggested elsewhere that adjusting the camshaft timing manually could mask the problem, however this taking this out of specification is potentially dangerous and masking a problem is of course never as good as solving it properly.

If you could be so kind as to choose an option in the poll, it would be interesting to see if there is a correlation between the new recall injectors being fitted and DPF problems/DPF lights coming on/more frequent regenerations.

Thanks

[andyvee]

You missed the option for the sump filling up with diesel after the recall :-)

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[irishvrs]

since the recall i noticed these exact problems and i felt that the car took an extra turn on the key before turning over after the new injectors where fitted... strange

[B19RAK]

Same problem in my old Audi A4. It need some extra revs at startup to idle properly and would shake a lot with white smoke. Mine still had the DPF.

Was fine when the car warmed up.

[Davidsr20]

No problems with mine at all and iv done 35k km on new injectors. I do get a passive regen every 600km or so but this is perfectly normal. Never had a dpf light on ether. I get 50mpg and have no cold start problems ether. I think a lot of the issues is down to human error. Mine were done in a very good well know vw/Audi main dealer.

[Aston_Bodger]

No problems with mine at all and iv done 35k km on new injectors. I do get a passive regen every 600km or so but this is perfectly normal. Never had a dpf light on ether. I get 50mpg and have no cold start problems ether. I think a lot of the issues is down to human error. Mine were done in a very good well know vw/Audi main dealer.

Same here no problems at the moment,mine was done Sept '11.

Trev

[07 vRS Taxi]

You missed the option for the sump filling up with diesel after the recall :-)

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They mentioned over fueling by saying grey/white smoke at idle though, im glad they did because everytime this pops up somebody on here says the rising oil level is down to the injector seals! How on earth? Poor injector seals would introduce air into the cylinder not diesel into the sump. The diesel into the sump is due to the overfueling of the injectors adjusted out of spec as Shark says, the term for this is 'bore wash' this isn't directed at you Andy just saw a chance to air my view on the matter.

[silver1011]

I've posted several threads on here about this very issue over the last year.

It is for this very reason I decided not to have my DPF removed as I don't want a heavily smoking car.

I had my local dealers master tech, Skoda UK and Skoda Czech Technical Support working on my car for around 20+ working days trying to fix the following issues that appeared within days of the injector recall being carried out...

1) Very poor cold starting, when below freezing I was looking at cranking times of 3-4 seconds followed by a rough idle.

2) Reduced MPG.

3) Diesel contaminating/diluting the engine oil.

4) Occasional and random cutting out of the engine.

5) Two failed turbo's.

6) Much more frequent DPF regens and failed DPF regens. Anything more than a few minutes stop/start driving would see the DPF light illuminate.

The dealer tried everything, removing and re-seating the injectors, replacing the seals, replacing the fuel filter, adjusting the camshaft timing and removing and inspecting the glowplugs.

Skoda UK eventually put their hands-up and admitted defeat. Their only advice was to leave it and see if it got worse.

As it happens something they did must have worked as over a few months things got better to a point I was able to tolerate it.

I'm lucky as all my mileage (30K/year) is motorway which means the DPF has an easier life but I still notice fairly frequent regens.

I'm no mechanic but I knew my PD170 would be a 'smoker' without it's DPF.

I am still concerned though as when I lift-off mid DPF-regen I get an occasional cloud of light coloured smoke out the back.

With my mileage the DPF will have to come off eventually.

This post has done two things...

1) Confirmed that Skoda UK really are quite rubbish.

2) Confirmed that I'll be going to Shark to have my DPF removed (and injectors correctly adjusted) when the time comes.

Edited 27 April, 2013 by silver1011

[silver1011]

So, there will be a fair amount of PD170 vRS's out there with incorrectly adjusted injectors that are overworking their DPF's as a direct result?

I wonder what Skoda UK would say when someone asks for a DPF replacement as a result of mistakes made by their dealer network?

I think we all already know. Shame on you Skoda.

[andyvee]

They mentioned over fueling by saying grey/white smoke at idle though, im glad they did because everytime this pops up somebody on here says the rising oil level is down to the injector seals! How on earth? Poor injector seals would introduce air into the cylinder not diesel into the sump. The diesel into the sump is due to the overfueling of the injectors adjusted out of spec as Shark says, the term for this is 'bore wash' this isn't directed at you Andy just saw a chance to air my view on the matter.

Not having a PD170, I wouldn't know what causes it, but there are plenty of examples of diesel getting in to the sump post recall.

If it is caused by overfuelling and therefore bore wash then the wear rate on the rings and bores must surely increase as well, shortening the life of the engine?

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[07 vRS Taxi]

Not having a PD170, I wouldn't know what causes it, but there are plenty of examples of diesel getting in to the sump post recall.

If it is caused by overfuelling and therefore bore wash then the wear rate on the rings and bores must surely increase as well, shortening the life of the engine?

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I'd say so, not to mention damage to the cam and crank due to contaminated oil, a friends car had a rising oil level due to a fault with the lambda, the ecu thought it was running lean so kept pumping masses of fuel into the cylinder and the high compression was forcing it to pass the rings. I havn't got a pd170 either, I come on this forum to help and build my knowledge as I plan to open my own repair centre by June when the diagnostic course I am doing finally finishes!

[nick74]

They mentioned over fueling by saying grey/white smoke at idle though, im glad they did because everytime this pops up somebody on here says the rising oil level is down to the injector seals! How on earth? Poor injector seals would introduce air into the cylinder not diesel into the sump. The diesel into the sump is due to the overfueling of the injectors adjusted out of spec as Shark says, the term for this is 'bore wash' this isn't directed at you Andy just saw a chance to air my view on the matter.

Poor injector seals on a PD can allow diesel into the oil, and for that matter oil into the diesel. Its only a PD setup where this can happen, you would never get this on a CR or a distributor pump diesel as it would be physically impossible.

If you look at a cross section of a PD injector its really in three sections. The bottom sticks into the cylinder, the middle is sat in a gallery of diesel in the head and the top sticks out into the cam cover. Hence it needs two sets of seals; one to stop anything going between the cylinder and the diesel, another set to stop anything getting between the diesel and the oil in the cam cover. If the bottom seals fail it will drip excess diesel past the injector into the cylinder, and allow blow-by gasses into the diesel. If the top seal fails it will allow oil and diesel to mix in the head. Either can cause rising sump oil level, even if the injector itself is in perfect condition and adjustment.

Oil and fuel mixing on a PD is not uncommon unfortunately, and a certain small amount is reckoned to be normal as you can never guarantee to seal the injectors 100%.

[silver1011]

Good post Nick.

I've learnt so much about DPF's and injectors since experiencing problems with both on my vRS.

[07 vRS Taxi]

Poor injector seals on a PD can allow diesel into the oil, and for that matter oil into the diesel. Its only a PD setup where this can happen, you would never get this on a CR or a distributor pump diesel as it would be physically impossible.

If you look at a cross section of a PD injector its really in three sections. The bottom sticks into the cylinder, the middle is sat in a gallery of diesel in the head and the top sticks out into the cam cover. Hence it needs two sets of seals; one to stop anything going between the cylinder and the diesel, another set to stop anything getting between the diesel and the oil in the cam cover. If the bottom seals fail it will drip excess diesel past the injector into the cylinder, and allow blow-by gasses into the diesel. If the top seal fails it will allow oil and diesel to mix in the head. Either can cause rising sump oil level, even if the injector itself is in perfect condition and adjustment.

Oil and fuel mixing on a PD is not uncommon unfortunately, and a certain small amount is reckoned to be normal as you can never guarantee to seal the injectors 100%.

I've never fitted a PD 170 injector Nick so ill have to take your word on that one. Edited 29 April, 2013 by 07 vRS Taxi

[Dezza]

Aha- I knew I wouldn't be alone...

I had my injectors replaced early 2012 (car died 2 days after receiving the warranty recall letter,) at about 90000 miles.

For the last few months I've had stinky diesel fumes and sluggishness; car then failed its feb 2013 MOT on emissions.

MOT refusal reported "Exhaust emits excessive level of metered smoke for a turbo engine."

Across three garage visits I've had a service, diesel conditioner, and a Bosch diag machine report injector issues, but then my main Skoda dealer diagnosed and replaced a broken inlet manifold actuator rod. They also said the DPF was coming up for replacement due to mileage.

The rod entailed an intake manfold replacement which fell just outside a 3yr extended warranty- £650.

This got the car through MOT, but I have a sweet diesel exhaust smell still, and some grey smoke you mention.

The engine still revs lumpily too, so I've been trying Shell premium diesel in case the supposed cleaning agents help.

No luck. Turbo seems to spool fine and acceleration's still reasonable.

I am now worried I have to consider selling the car to avoid a future large bill. The car's on 108000 miles at present.

So this all sounds like it's familiar to anyone on this post. Any more info I can provide to help with these investigations? Do I have any case to go back to the main dealer and what could I ask them to check without paying out?

My last air filter change was last August, would that help? Or the EGR cleaning? Or do I just need a new DPF??

Cheers

[Dezza]

Aha- I knew I wouldn't be alone...

I had my injectors replaced early 2012 (car died 2 days after receiving the warranty recall letter,) at about 90000 miles.

For the last few months I've had stinky diesel fumes and sluggishness; car then failed its feb 2013 MOT on emissions.

MOT refusal reported "Exhaust emits excessive level of metered smoke for a turbo engine."

Across three garage visits I've had a service, diesel conditioner, and a Bosch diag machine report injector issues, but then my main Skoda dealer diagnosed and replaced a broken inlet manifold actuator rod. They also said the DPF was coming up for replacement due to mileage.

The rod entailed an intake manfold replacement which fell just outside a 3yr extended warranty- £650.

This got the car through MOT, but I have a sweet diesel exhaust smell still, and some grey smoke you mention.

The engine still revs lumpily too, so I've been trying Shell premium diesel in case the supposed cleaning agents help.

No luck. Turbo seems to spool fine and acceleration's still reasonable.

I am now worried I have to consider selling the car to avoid a future large bill. The car's on 108000 miles at present.

So this all sounds like it's familiar to anyone on this post. Any more info I can provide to help with these investigations? Do I have any case to go back to the main dealer and what could I ask them to check without paying out?

My last air filter change was last August, would that help? Or the EGR cleaning? Or do I just need a new DPF??

Cheers

Note: I have a PD engine.

[silver1011]

Is your oil level rising?

[shark_90]

I would definitely check the injector setup, if you need somewhere with experience then we're about an hour up the road.

[JohnMcL7]

I'll be interested to hear if you manage to get to the bottom of the issues after replacement injectors have been fitted, I'm still on my original ones as I've read too many people having trouble after the new injectors have been fitted across all the VW brands. The symptoms seem to be rough starting when cold and the DPF light coming far more often plus turbo problems shortly after in some cases as well but I don't think I've read any case where people have been having these issues and had them resolved instead the best seems to be they are reduced enough that it is tolerable. There was a link here to another forum where someone with an A3 with the PD170 engine had the injectors replaced then had issues and continually took the car back to the garage but after something like 14 or 15 visits and many parts replaced, the owner claimed the car still was rough and not running as smoothly as it was on the original injectors.

John

[Dezza]

Thanks guys.

Oil level stays the same. Think I'll ask the garage to check the injectors ASAP.

I'll keep you updated..

[fozzafozza]

I have an Audi A3 with the same engine 170 pd bmn. It is by far the worst car I have ever owned! I had 1 injector fail at 75mph in outside lane of motorway and shut the engine down! Had the injectors replaced under the recall and the car hasnt been right since! Difficult to start when cold, lumpy idle and grey acrid smelling smoke on idle and sometimes when accelerating hard. Had it back into Audi dealer 3 times to be told all was well. It clearly isnt! Had dpf removed and software mapped out. This improved the lumpy idle massively but made the smoke issue worse as there is nothing to mask it! I did use vcds to check and attempt to fine adjust the camshaft torsion value but cant seem to get it with no smoke. I also found cylinder 1 injector over adjusted or 'too tight'. I feel this may have damaged the injector internally causing the smoke. The car is goin for more diagnosiscat a diesel tuning specialist early to mid october for more diagnosis. Will keep you updated!

[amk2vr6]

Anyone ever get to the bottom of this?

Correctly adjusted rocker on injectors, injector seals or cam timing checked and using vagcom and then adjusted?

[Dread1977]

Id be interested to see what the outcome of this is... mine has def not been the same since the injector recall, despite going back to the garage they didnt find anything (no surprise there) but more recently ive had a few more regens than normal, and also had it randomly stop on me at roundabouts etc (that bit is quite scary esp for the girlfriend!!) ive been told that could be a speed sensor or cam position sensor?? but now thinking it could be related to these injectors and them being out!! (any ideas how I would find out with VCDS if they are out?)

[silver1011]

I hate these posts, brings back memories of my brilliant PD170 vRS.

 

Brilliant until the injectors were changed, then it slowly became the most unreliable car I've owned.

 

Mine too used to randomly stall, immediately after the injector change.

 

The new injectors leaked fuel into the sump - blew the turbo.

 

Oil cooler then leaked oil into the coolant system.

 

DPF light suddenly started to appear more and more often.

 

Car became increasingly difficult to drive smoothly.

 

Cold starting became an issue. The colder the outside air temperature the longer it took to start, sometimes almost 5 seconds of cranking.

 

Rough idle (not DPF regen).

 

Increased fuel consumption.

 

Occasional white smoke out of the tailpipe when lifting off the accelerator.

 

Blew turbo number 2.

 

SOLD!

 

Was in with the dealer almost 28 days in the end. Skoda UK ended up telling me that there was nothing more they could do, they and their technicians did not know what was wrong.

[amk2vr6]

What the hell?

There has to be a simple explanation as to why so many have problems after the injector recall.

Just out of interest, what reg was your car? I've put a deposit on one and hope it isn't your old one! Haha.