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Cheap Handling Mod


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#1 sabredylan

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Posted 30 March 2006 - 11:17

The subframe on the Octy Vrs is quite flexible, obviously being bad for handling and power deliverly. A popular modification is to put the Audi TT lower brace on to improve the rigidity. On the TT Roadster, this is taken a step further with the addition of uprated 2 piece rear subframe bushes and rear cross braces. You can see these numbered 2 and 34 on the picture below. Apparantly they make a bigger difference than the front brace, reducing understeer, wheel hop and giving better power delivery. I've just ordered some from VAG PARTS (01793487700). The cross braces (34) are £7.00 each and the uprated rear bushes (2) are £22.00per side. :thumbup:

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#2 KaraK

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Posted 30 March 2006 - 11:38

Just a couple of Stupid Questions™:

1. i'm assuming a regular non-vRS octy would also benefit?

2. How easy are they to fit?

#3 Hans Freikit

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Posted 30 March 2006 - 19:24

Another stupid question: does this suit the vrS Combi (estate) too ?

Si

#4 todonova

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Posted 30 March 2006 - 19:36

May I add to the previous silly question by asking an even more stupid question,
Does it suit the 4x4 hatch? I believe the rear suspension on the 4x4 is different.
In what way I don't know, but I know I want rid of body role.

#5 DaveH

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Posted 30 March 2006 - 20:04

I would have thought it would be more likely to fit the 4x4 than the VRS, isn't the TT back end completely different to the VRS?

#6 todonova

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Posted 30 March 2006 - 23:20

Yeah, that sounds right, aren't all TT's 4 wheel drive?

#7 bpm

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Posted 31 March 2006 - 00:19

Another stupid question: does this suit the vrS Combi (estate) too ?

Si


Excellent question. I'm waiting for the answer!

#8 blankczechbook

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Posted 31 March 2006 - 06:05

Yeah, that sounds right, aren't all TT's 4 wheel drive?


nope

#9 Delcac

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Posted 31 March 2006 - 06:38

Umm........The pic in the first post is of the front sub-frame, as there is a dog bone mount shown. The mod is for the back/rear of the front sub-frame and will fit any 1.8T golf platform. It's been on my car for about 2 years now and it does make a difference.

#10 UncleRic

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Posted 31 March 2006 - 06:49

So this really would be a cheap handling mod then..:thumbup:

#11 Stuart_J

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Posted 31 March 2006 - 07:42

Yeah, that sounds right, aren't all TT's 4 wheel drive?



One exhaust pipe equals 180 bhp FWD & Slow (In germany I know you can order 180's with twin pipes)
Twin Exhausts equals 225 bhp 4WD & a tadge quicker
Octy 4x4 or Rs + jabba remap = faster than both !!!

#12 Beretta

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Posted 31 March 2006 - 07:55

Octy 4x4 or Rs + jabba remap = faster than both !!!


Octy vRs + IP map = also faster than both..:p But this really is a question about handling and not performance...;)
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#13 Stuart_J

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Posted 31 March 2006 - 08:03

Octy vRs + IP map = also faster than both..:p But this really is a question about handling and not performance...;)


Sorry, slapped wrists! I should have said "a decent remap" there are several including IP.

Its also about the driver, Ive come across a few TT's & they only seem quick on the straights which I am sure is a driver thing

#14 TaviaRS

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Posted 31 March 2006 - 08:24

Urm, nope. Single pipe denotes a 180, not necessarily a FWD one.

As for are they quick, well I reckon that if you did the same mods on the TT that you'd do on the Octy there wouldn't be a lot in it although the TT is heavier.

As you say, comes down to the driver as much as anything. Most are bought by poseurs not "drivers". I've driven a remapped one at the Ring and I like to think I drove it to within an inch of its life.

#15 The Skud

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Posted 31 March 2006 - 08:28

Umm........The pic in the first post is of the front sub-frame, as there is a dog bone mount shown. The mod is for the back/rear of the front sub-frame and will fit any 1.8T golf platform. It's been on my car for about 2 years now and it does make a difference.


Des, any chance of some part numbers, the rear bush could be Powerflex could it not? Will look into the bracing piecee as they would complement the S3 lower brace fitted to the front of the subframe.

#16 sabredylan

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Posted 31 March 2006 - 09:23

The braces should fit all configerations, as the sub frame is the same. If you look at the pic below, you can see a home made brace fitted. The sub frame already has threaded mounting holes. You may have to drill a hole near the rear sub frame bush though. The uprated 2 piece sub frame bushes, are fitted to vag cars with high torque, ie TT Vr6 etc. The bushes on the Octy are single piece and not as strong.

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#17 MC Bodge

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Posted 31 March 2006 - 10:37

The subframe on the Octy Vrs is quite flexible, obviously being bad for handling and power deliverly. A popular modification is to put the Audi TT lower brace on to improve the rigidity


Presumably the lower brace makes the bigger difference rather than the small 'cross-pieces' ?

#18 Goochie

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Posted 31 March 2006 - 10:41

Are all of these parts an easy(ish) DIY job that needs no special tools?

#19 SkodiRS

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Posted 31 March 2006 - 10:47

Presumably the lower brace makes the bigger difference rather than the small 'cross-pieces' ?



The lower brace does make a difference and is cheap as chips (£18 IIRC).

However it would also be better to add a top strut as well...effectively making a "square"...i.e. top/bottom braces with the struts either side.

No special tools are required for fitting.

#20 sabredylan

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Posted 31 March 2006 - 10:54

I was told that the small rear braces and bushes made a bigger difference than just the front brace. The braces are a diy job, as the mounting points are already there. You will probably have to drill a couple of holes for the rear braces though. The bushes will be a bit more involved, as you need a bush extractor. This is the write up from someone who has made his own rear braces.

For 2 years I've been experimenting with dogbones, motor mounts, alignment settings, etc. trying to get the front end of my 337 to stop understeering and plowing. I had a '92 Jetta GLi that cornered on rails, so I couldn't believe a 337 couldn't do it too. When I'd go real stiff with dogbone bushings and/or tranny & motor mount, the bite of the front end improved alot but the noise was unbearable. After endless experimentation I realized something important. When I stiffened up motor mounts or dogbone bushings it's wasn't the reduced engine movement that improved handling (think about it, why would it be?), it was the engine acting to reduce movement of the subframe through the dogbone! A few months ago I removed the subframe from my 337. I was amazed at how flexible the whole thing was and how wimpy the rear subframe bushings were. The subframe and these bushings are the key to getting a MKIV to stop understeering! Those that say "improve your handling by limiting engine motion with our poly dogbone bushings/motor mounts" have it completely backward. It's not less engine movement that aids handling, it's less subframe movement.
When I had the subframe out, I strengthened it by welding steel bar-stock braces inside and outside. This helped, but the biggest change came from making new rear subframe bushings. It took a lot of trial and error so I can't provide detailed instructions here, but I took polyurethane boat trailer rollers and turned them down on the shaft of a bench grinder. A slightly oversized top and bottom half are put in the subframe then squeezed to hold the subframe tightly when the bolt is torqued down.
I'm back to a stock dogbone mount and don't need anything tighter. The interior isn't as quiet as stock, but it's far better than with poly dogbone bushings.

What a change in the handling! The steering is far more accurate than my brother's M3 and the front end just won't give up in corners. I can throw the tail out any time I want, or balance it in a 4 wheel drift. Hard accleration creates no front end lift. None. When I get wheel spin, it's both front wheels equally with no wheel hop at all. I just can't believe that all of the other MKIV tweakers out there have missed this one.

This chap made his own rear bushes for the front subframe out of polyurethane, but there is already 2 piece uprated bush available from VAG. I don't think there is an aftermarket poly bush available, but if there is can you post it on the thread please.

#21 MC Bodge

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Posted 31 March 2006 - 10:55

The lower brace does make a difference and is cheap as chips (£18 IIRC).

However it would also be better to add a top strut as well...effectively making a "square"...i.e. top/bottom braces with the struts either side.


Cheers. Increased stiffness would be good. Does anyone have any pictures/diagrams of the braces in situ? How 'stealthy' is it?

I sense a trip to Audi coming on....
A TT wheelarch vent is calling me too...

Actually, my mate's TT 225 could be a suitable donor car.
(I might call round there later :) The way he drives it he wouldn't even notice if I swapped the engine for a 1.4 ;) Why he didn't get a 150/180 I've no idea.....:rolleyes: )

#22 Goochie

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Posted 31 March 2006 - 11:10

I feel a trip to VW coming on - No Audi dealer near here so I'm hoping they can get the parts for me.

#23 Goochie

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Posted 31 March 2006 - 11:13

I cant see the part number for the braces numbered "34" in the diargam, nor the bolts "35"

Anyone got them ?

#24 sabredylan

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Posted 31 March 2006 - 11:39

To be honest Audi and VW dealers can be a bit off, if the part is for another vehicle. I've always used VAG Parts (01793487700). They are cheaper and post it to your door. They have access to part diagrams of all the VAG range, so you can compare part numbers etc. Ask for Alan.

I've had a search and can't find any poly bushes for the front subframe our chassis. The only ones I could find were for a golf mk3 and they said the bushes might transmit a bit of vibration. Might be better with the two piece from VAG in that case.

#25 MC Bodge

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Posted 31 March 2006 - 12:20

So, to complete this cheap handling mod, you'd need:

rear braces from the TT
uprated sub-frame bushes (what vehicle are they from?)
cross-members, from a TT soft-top

Anything else?

oh, yes and a wheelarch vent :)

Any other TT bits that would enhance the dynamics of an Octavia?

#26 Goochie

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Posted 31 March 2006 - 12:24

I have a plan...... going to mearure up the mounting holes at the weekend then get some machined at work next week ;) While I'm under ther I'll have a look and see if ther eis potential for any more mods like this.

#27 MC Bodge

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Posted 31 March 2006 - 12:37

Welding angle-iron to the sub-frame could work, but as that cut n' paste above says, if it's not mounted firmly it will flex about anyway.

#28 Hans Freikit

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Posted 31 March 2006 - 15:20

To be honest Audi and VW dealers can be a bit off, if the part is for another vehicle. I've always used VAG Parts (01793487700). They are cheaper and post it to your door. They have access to part diagrams of all the VAG range, so you can compare part numbers etc. Ask for Alan.

I've had a search and can't find any poly bushes for the front subframe our chassis. The only ones I could find were for a golf mk3 and they said the bushes might transmit a bit of vibration. Might be better with the two piece from VAG in that case.


Could you spell it out for us and save everyone calling Alan with the same request ?

I'd just like to know:

1) What part numbers did you order from VAGParts ?

2) Particularly for the braces for the rear of the front subframe (the #34 £7 parts you mentioned in your first post) - do these bolt straight on with no drilling ?

Thanks :)

Si

#29 Delcac

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Posted 31 March 2006 - 16:37

Des, any chance of some part numbers, the rear bush could be Powerflex could it not? Will look into the bracing piecee as they would complement the S3 lower brace fitted to the front of the subframe.



The bush that is holding the sub-frame onto the car (Octavia part No. IJO 199 429) is the one you need to change for the TT one. Not to be confused with the bush that holds the Wish bone onto the sub-frame (Octavia part No. 1JO 407 181) which can be changed for a Powerflex bush.

In my own humble opinion the TT Lower Braces both front and back ones talked about above are naff and not worth a light as they are to flimsy. Better to go for the Neuspeed lower front brace which bolts onto the sub-frame further forward and manufacture the rear ones. Trade off is the Neuspeed lower front brace will be the lowest part on the car.

#30 Leeboy

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Posted 03 April 2006 - 20:13

Trade off is the Neuspeed lower front brace will be the lowest part on the car.


But good for harvesting road kills, On my last outing, managed to wrap a bit of (already dead) fox wrapped around mine :D