Belgian Grand Prix, Your predictions.

[steve75]

I'm also a Ferrari fan and have been since i was a nipper, but even i can see it's complete bull****..... As i see it, ferrari fan or mclaren fan YOU should be disgusted with the decision! - it makes a mockery of the sport! I agree with this over at planet f1

Such a vague and all-encompassing stipulation in the rulebook gives the stewards considerable latitude. In effect, it allows them to punish any and every driver in the field on every occasion they leave the tarmac. However, given that Hamilton was far from being alone in leaving the race track on Sunday then their decision to focus exclusively on the McLaren driver's whereabouts is bound, once again, to prompt talk of bias and witch-hunts.

Were the stewards to have been inclined to maintain a consistent line then they would, for instance, have had to punish Kimi Raikkonen for leaving the racetrack at the Pouhon corner as he strived to retake the lead. Likewise, Nico Rosberg, with whom both Hamilton and Raikkonen nearly crashed before the Finn temporarily regained the lead of the race as he overtook both cars under a yellow flag, should, if the stewards' application of the rules was consistent, have suffered an identical punishment to Hamilton for sliding off the track and on to the grass.

At the end of the day, if your gonna go enforcing the rules with an iron fist you should ****ing well do it properly and give Raikkonen a grid penalty or other fitting penalty for his small catalogue of rule breaking during those final few laps! - Overtaking under yellows, going off track, tagging the back of LH...........

As it is, i can't stand mclaren, ron and even Lewis gets on my tit's (smug little ****er.......) however he's is a 1st class driver, and he won the bloody race with guts and determination! just the sort of thing we all tune in hoping to see for 18 weekends of the year, only to be dissapointed 90% of the time! and when it does happen - some bloody two bit ****ing bell end decides to turn it on its head........ Something is bloody wrong!!!

This quote from the editorial on planet f1 shows exactly why its such a bloody joke.....

Imagine the response from people watching the FA Cup Final if the match was won, the cup awarded, the pictures taken but then two hours later the result is reversed on a less than clear technical infringement. Well you don't have to imagine it as it would not happen. The FA is well aware the public would just not buy it.

Edited 9 September, 2008 by steve75

[steve75]

like at yellows and double waved Yellows you have to lift and due to the speed of a forumla1 car some drivers hold a hand in the air to say im going slower just so their is no doubt.

Exactly..... and this is one of the reasons people are ****ed off, your meant to lift and not overatake in that area! something KR needs reminding of, and punishing for......

the rule is GIVE the place back, the FACT is he didnt and because of the conditions he gained an advantage in the dry Kimi would of just driven away thus no advantage but because it was wet we got this situation.

And this part doesn't make sense.......... So LH should be punished because KR and the Ferrari aren't good enough in the wet??

Comedy......

Edited 9 September, 2008 by steve75

[BigW]

I realise some of this is passion, frustration and whatever else on this thread guys but names like Child, Fool, Muppet and Schoolkid are not needed, if you cant have a debate in an adult manner without baiting and name calling then pop off to another forum and discuss it there.

Keep it civil.

[Lady Elanore]

I called Lewis Hamilton a ‘child’ as he is only a wee nipper, it wasn’t directed at any of the protagonists in this thread. I am sure I could have been more inventive if I had aimed it at a poster though:D.

On a serious note, perhaps as the OP you can take satisfaction from the Poll result giving massive backing to what seems the general opinion in this thread and so close it if it becomes any more personal? I can see it happening:(

[Ender]

Exactly..... and this is one of the reasons people are ****ed off, your meant to lift and not overatake in that area! something KR needs reminding of, and punishing for......

And this part doesn't make sense.......... So LH should be punished because KR and the Ferrari aren't good enough in the wet??

Comedy......

Steve what im saying is, LH didnt lift ok?, but Kimi had a 6 KPH speed advantage because of a line, in the dry or normal circumstances that speed would of meant Kimi regaining the lead and then holding the lead, However due to the ferrari being not so good in the wet it meant that because Hamilton never lifted it looked or seemed like he had an advantage.

As I said several times the penalty was harsh but warrented due to the mitigating circumstances, Elanore Im not a protagonist im saying it how it is, I cannot help that im england and not Brazil or Italy where you would be labled the protagonist.

[Johnny50]

Steve what im saying is, LH didnt lift ok?

So are Mclaren lying then ?

As they seemed quite happy to let anyone look at the data which they claim shows Hamilton lifting off. :confused:

[cheezemonkhai]

So are Mclaren lying then ?

As they seemed quite happy to let anyone look at the data which they claim shows Hamilton lifting off. :confused:

Yes, telemetry lies don't you know

[Ender]

Basically yes they are lying, The telemetry shows a 6 KPH difference in speed however their was no sign of a lift or ease off as heard in the link posted or with the evidence given by Macca dennis.

[Lady Elanore]

Sorry if this is a reprint but I really can’t find the will to read all the way through this thread again. Note Race Control confirmed it TWICE

McLaren’s statement in full:

Martin Whitmarsh said: "Following our decision to register our intention to appeal the penalty handed out to Lewis Hamilton by the FIA Stewards at the 2008 Belgian Grand Prix, we hereby confirm that we have now lodged notice of appeal. Lewis describes the incident as follows."

Lewis Hamilton said: "In the closing stages of the race I was catching Kimi (Raikkonen) consistently, lap by lap, and with three laps remaining I got close enough to attempt to overtake him on the entry to the last chicane. I managed to get slightly ahead of him in the braking area for the first apex of the chicane. He fought back approaching the second apex - but, in doing so, he left no room for me on the inside line. The only way for me to avoid a collision was therefore to cut inside the second apex.

"I came out of the second apex in front of Kimi and so I momentarily lifted-off on the straight, to ensure that Kimi got back in front. The team also came on the radio and instructed me to allow Kimi to repass, which I had already done. As a result, Kimi crossed the start/finish line ahead of me and 6.7km/h quicker than me.

"After allowing Kimi to completely repass, I crossed from the left side of the track to the right side of the track, passing behind Kimi in the process. I then attacked Kimi on the inside of the first corner, and successfully outbraked him."

Martin Whitmarsh added: "From the pit wall, we then asked Race Control to confirm that they were comfortable that Lewis had allowed Kimi to repass, and they confirmed twice that they believed that the position had been given back in a manner that was 'okay'.

"If Race Control had instead expressed any concern regarding Lewis’s actions at that time, we would have instructed Lewis to allow Kimi to repass for a second time."

[countryboyhaha]

I hope we all know this will not be the last time Lewis will be in trouble, just like MS and Senna before him. He has that magical ability to go sideways and still be quick. I do think it will not be the last time re will be robbed. The sport is becoming to sanitised and a wild man like lewis is just to different to fit into the mold. Just a pity he's British as he will be hounded and hyped too much.

[jlwah]

Does anyone know if the investigation was a result of Ferrari putting in a complaint?

I can't find anything to suggest that it was.

[Lady Elanore]

Does anyone know if the investigation was a result of Ferrari putting in a complaint?

I can't find anything to suggest that it was.

An interesting question, but I don’t think it imparts anything to this discussion. I would expect most incidents (tangling and running wide overtaking, undertaking and querying the correct thing to do with the race controllers) would probably cause this to happen.

[Johnny50]

Does anyone know if the investigation was a result of Ferrari putting in a complaint?

I can't find anything to suggest that it was.

From what i read on ITV-F1, Ferrari did not instigate the investigation.

[gadgetman]

Basically yes they are lying, The telemetry shows a 6 KPH difference in speed however their was no sign of a lift or ease off as heard in the link posted or with the evidence given by Macca dennis.

So you can tell a subtle lift off in an engine that runs at over 15,000 RPM?

Even a hair's width would be enough to create a lift off without any noticable difference in sound to the ear. You'd need a full spectral graph of the sound to see the blip.

Also any slip stream nonsense is just that. How can you slip stream when running at the side of the car to be slip streamed. How can you have any effect in a matter of meters, when slipstreaming takes a lot bore, and relies on the following car not lifting off until the slingshot

Very impartial -

Heard the one about the Kenyan, the Frenchman and the Belgian? - Planet-F1 News - from planet-f1.com

Planet F1 are usually pretty reserved IMO, but there really are gunning for the FIA/F1 admin on this one.

[jlwah]

An interesting question, but I don’t think it imparts anything to this discussion. I would expect most incidents (tangling and running wide overtaking, undertaking and querying the correct thing to do with the race controllers) would probably cause this to happen.

Maybe not, but if they didn't then it takes a little wind out of the sails of the FIA / Ferrari conspiracy theorists.

[KenONeill]

The main thing that this has pointed up about the "Ferrari/FIA conspiracy theorists" is that they don't actually know the rules that they aledge the conspiracy to run under, or the history behind them.

The rules actually state that, if an offence which would merit a stop-go or drive-through is committed in the last 5 laps of the race, the penalty shall be applied by adding 25s to the driver's time post race. This rule was added after the 1998 British GP, when Michael Schumacher, driving a Ferrari, incurred a stop-go which he served after passing the chequer in the lead (entirely permissibly).

[bahnstormer vrs]

From what i read on ITV-F1, Ferrari did not instigate the investigation.

Autosport report similarly; Ferrari have said they said nothing; all down to the Race Stewards.

[bahnstormer vrs]

Not got time to read all posts on this thread, so apologies if this duplicates what has come up before, however;-

Dear Friends,

I have just read and signed the online petition:

"Belgium Grand Prix - Lewis Hamilton was unfairly stripped of his win"

hosted on the web by PetitionOnline.com, the free online petition service, at:

Belgium Grand Prix - Lewis Hamilton was unfairly stripped of his win Petition

I personally agree with what this petition says, and I think you might agree, too. If you can spare a moment, please take a look, and consider signing yourself.

[KenONeill]

In this context, there is also a petition supporting the Stewards' decision: a mate of mine reported yesterday that the referenced "unfair" petition had ~21_500 signatures, and the one supporting the decision had 5! I mean, that's not even all of Filipe's family!

[ScoobyChris]

McLaren's side of the story....

F1 News > McLaren reacts to penalty

Interesting the point about Race Control....

Chris

[bahnstormer vrs]

In this context, there is also a petition supporting the Stewards' decision: a mate of mine reported yesterday that the referenced "unfair" petition had ~21_500 signatures, and the one supporting the decision had 5! I mean, that's not even all of Filipe's family!

the "unfair" petition has 32,000 + signatures as at 10:00am this morning!

[bryan]

Not got time to read all posts on this thread, so apologies if this duplicates what has come up before, however;-

Dear Friends,

I have just read and signed the online petition:

"Belgium Grand Prix - Lewis Hamilton was unfairly stripped of his win"

hosted on the web by PetitionOnline.com, the free online petition service, at:

Belgium Grand Prix - Lewis Hamilton was unfairly stripped of his win Petition

I personally agree with what this petition says, and I think you might agree, too. If you can spare a moment, please take a look, and consider signing yourself.

Yes this has been covered already, but no harm showing it again as many like you may not have read the total thread and have missed it. I see that the number having signed it is now at 32532

[steve75]

The main thing that this has pointed up about the "Ferrari/FIA conspiracy theorists" is that they don't actually know the rules that they aledge the conspiracy to run under, or the history behind them.

The rules actually state that, if an offence which would merit a stop-go or drive-through is committed in the last 5 laps of the race, the penalty shall be applied by adding 25s to the driver's time post race. This rule was added after the 1998 British GP, when Michael Schumacher, driving a Ferrari, incurred a stop-go which he served after passing the chequer in the lead (entirely permissibly).

I don't deny that if you go by the rules and dot all i's and cross all t's the rules were broken........ And the rule that was broken was that he left the circuit........ Now bearing in mind the conditions of the circuit at the time, wet and getting wetter, i don't think it's beyond the stewards to use some common sense that as the weather had changed, people are gonna come a cropper and end up off the track........ Now the bit that is hard to swallow is, that if they are going to punish Lewis with a 25sec penalty, then they should issue 25 second penalties to eash and every driver that left the circuit at any point during in the race - Kimi didn't finish the race but that isn't a problem as they could issue a 5 or 10 place grid penalty for the next race (i'd say 10sec minimum as he broke several rules - Overtaking under yellows, going off circuit etc)

Sound fair? maybe.... sound stupid... YES! But you can't just single out one driver, Bit of common sense and this bull**** wouldn't happen....... I'll quote once again planetf1's editorial as that lays out exactly how stupid it all is.......

Imagine the response from people watching the FA Cup Final if the match was won, the cup awarded, the pictures taken but then two hours later the result is reversed on a less than clear technical infringement. Well you don't have to imagine it as it would not happen. The FA is well aware the public would just not buy it.

I dunno if that made any sense, i was rambling........ But the short version is that i think he broke the rule (i don't think got an advantage though) and lots of others broke the same rule that day too......... and therefore either punish em all or use some common sense!

[chowy]

[Flame suit on] My opinion is that he did gain an advantage by skipping the chicane and although he let Raikonen by, there is no way he would have got into the slipstream, on a short straight, if he would have had to negotiate the chicane.

I think if he would have got away with it, it would pave the way for all of them to skip the chicanes just to get the slipstream of the car in front.

Hamilton also claims he was forced off the road but from what I can see, he tried an overtaking move that only would have come off if Raikonen would have backed off and let him though!

[KenONeill]

It's called a "block pass", and works well provided everyone accepts that someone alongside you inside means you've lost the corner and doesn't just run you off the track.