Automatic boot - Completed

[m0bov]

Red or even yellow.

[blackspaven]

Right, I'm gonna categorically say it's NOT down to just getting springs and fitting them!

 

You need the springs to build up the inertia to overcome the boot being down and the pistons compressed, and once that's happened to carry on the push you need either newer struts (as what Radders has done) which still have their original maximum force OR buy more powerful ones, such as on the Exeo estate or possibly the even more powerful Audi A4 estate (B6 model), although with those ones you'd have to either swap the end bolts or the rod connectors which I can't see as being tricky as well as seeing if the extra half centimeter in length once fully extended which might only make a difference when it's contracted as the boot is closed.

 

I will say, whether this opens all the time or not is definitely down to the quality/power left in the struts, NOT just the spring. I see everyone's banging on about red/blue/yellow/green/blah springs (although I get that it's easier to reference them that way.... mine are same specs as the red but coloured orange! ), but I've tried die springs from a nearby spring manufacturer (pages ago in this thread) who's specs and choices go well above the specific coloured ones people are talking about on here, and luckily they let me play with all sorts of different variations for days at a time trying to work out which did and didn't work, and they STILL only opened when the weather was clement.

 

I tried ones stronger than what are referred to as red on here, and after a few days even they just popped the boot exactly the same amount as the orange ones I currently have, absolutely no difference. The guy at the manufacturers said they're just not designed to be compressed and when they are, over time, they weaken, which pretty much explained why they were fantastic out the box then after a few days of them sitting in their natural state in a car boot of being squashed, started to weaken.

 

The struts weaken with age and, as above, the springs are only designed to be used as a rebound for machinery they're put on, so the way we're using them isn't ideal as we're wanting them to be a definite, maximum exertion push force. Once the springs have done what they're not designed to do and expanded when the boot is opened, the strut has to be powerful enough to take over the job from a very early point. If they're old (unlike sparkly Radders new ones) or not the uprated strengths from other car models, they're just not gonna be able to do the job, which is why everyone else is left with them just popping open a few inches and settling down again unless it's warm/sunny when the internals/fluids of the piston either expand or warm up enough and become more viscous so travel better.

Just an educated guess on the weather bit, but I'm 100% positive the rest of it is correct.

Edited 14 May, 2015 by blackspaven

[blackspaven]

Okay, update. Cos this keeps raising it's ugly head and it's winding me up not knowing what the best to use is, I've been on the phone to FEBI/Bilstein and the guy there says they do have a total list of all their boot/bonnet struts with all dimensions.... but it's is a BIIIIIG document! He's gonna email it to me and I'll let you guys know which struts appear to be the closest so which are the best bet to experiment with.

 

Spoke to him initially about the Octy, Exeo & A4 (B6) struts, dunno about the A4 ones but the Exeo ones are really close in size and 30nm more powerful! Those crazy dutch b@stards might be on to something??!! 

 

 

**EDIT... this WILL take me some time to look through!! **

Edited 14 May, 2015 by blackspaven

[langers2k]

Blackspaven, are your friendly spring company able to suggest a spring that will survive under constant compression and still provide the initial push required to get the boot moving? Seems worth an ask rather than using an off the shelf spring which is out of it's comfort zone.

[blackspaven]

From what I remember, there's nothing they were aware of that has the convenient dimensions of a die spring that does the same job. I presume the only way to get one specifically to do the job, and this is just my understanding not theirs, is one that's a similar length but with stronger coils separated further apart so they can compress naturally and bounce back to their original size due to the greater strength and being closer to a straight line, whereas the die springs we're all talking about have many, many coils close together so have a limited amount of spring. Hence their usage as a rebound spring used for tiny amounts of play rather than full compression.

 

Only other problem is that you need any spring to still fit within the confines of that side 'tunnel' where the strut sits. Official strut width is 1.9mm so you're looking at that or only a little larger without it fouling. Kind of restricts what you put in there as well. It also needs to sit nicely on the piston rod so that it doesn't score the rod or go the other way and have too big a central hole and cause the spring's force to deflect off centre. All these crazy things to take into account just for an automatic boot!!

 

**edit - other thing I forgot is that if you go too crazy with powerful springs,... remember you still have to shut the damn thing!! )

 

Company (assuming it's still there) is based in Wokingham. Bloke I spoke to was a lovely bloke, very helpful and one of those uber geeks about springs. Gonna be working there permanently in a month's time so might go back and ask a few questions.

Edited 14 May, 2015 by blackspaven

[blackspaven]

Not sure if it's much of a guide, in the same way Radders has NEW octy struts and he's a lucky bunny in that his autoboot is working fine at the mo, but octo2lpg changed his struts (for the more problematic hatchback) for laguna ones (top of page 8) and their force is a whopping 670nm. They ARE brand new again though, so time will tell as original octy estate struts will work for a while until they fade a little with age. And they will, otherwise they'd never need replacing. However, I have absolutely no idea whether NEW hatchback struts would work straight away like with estate struts as it seems either the boot is a lot heavier or the way the force is displaced makes it more difficult to open due to the design.

 

Just seen I posted a video of when I first fitted mine on post #182 and the springs hadn't compressed enough for them to fail at that point. All the specs needed are just below. Bare in mind, the ones in this video DID fail exactly the same as my current extra-heavy duty ones, which makes me think once they're 'settled' to their weaker state from compression you DO need stronger struts. The springs just give it that jump start.

 

 

Looking back around that time, looks like literally everyone who was having success was due to having gotten new struts. Mine do still work occasionally so it's gotta be quite close... just need to find that sliiiightly stronger strut.

Edited 14 May, 2015 by blackspaven

[radders567]

I have to say laguna struts and red die springs are still working perfectly and showing no signs of not being up to the job. I think they key to success is in replacing the struts; the springs are just required for that little push when you press the button.

[Jimmy Swede]

If my springs would make my trunk pop about 5cm more it would go up! Thinking of trying to put a washer there and give the spring a bit longer pushlength, could work!

And if it doesn't, which laguna have you taken your shocks from? Think I'm gonna measure my parents in laws shocks as well, their mondeos trunk is heavy as **** so the shocks should be powerful!

[Jimmy Swede]

If my springs would make my trunk pop about 5cm more it would go up! Thinking of trying to put a washer there and give the spring a bit longer pushlength, could work!

And if it doesn't, which laguna have you taken your shocks from? Think I'm gonna measure my parents in laws shocks as well, their mondeos trunk is heavy as **** so the shocks should be powerful!

[blackspaven]

I have to say laguna struts and red die springs are still working perfectly and showing no signs of not being up to the job. I think they key to success is in replacing the struts; the springs are just required for that little push when you press the button.

Absolutely. I'm positive the key is in getting stronger struts to carry the throw once the spring has done it's bump start. Do you have any idea what exact model or even better part number you have for your strut cos I could see on the FEBI list how much force it throws out in comparison to the original octavia hatchback unit?

 

Scratch that, already been answered in Post #211. Interesting thought that the housing is much bigger. Looks like there is plenty of room to play with hopefully.

This is FEBI's listing for the octy (hatch then estate)

 

This is the Renualt equivalent that I think you fitted Radders...

 

Edited 14 May, 2015 by blackspaven

[blackspaven]

And if it doesn't, which laguna have you taken your shocks from? Think I'm gonna measure my parents in laws shocks as well, their mondeos trunk is heavy as **** so the shocks should be powerful!

 

Gotta make sure the housing is the right size to sit in the groove without fouling and the length closed is close enough as well, not just about force, unfortunately. On top of that, if the rod is really thin or thick it might make getting the spring on tricky. Octy ones have an 18mm housing with an 8mm internal rod.

[blackspaven]

YOU ARE NOT GOING TO BELIEVE THIS!!!!

 

Okay, so I'm a way down the FEBI list and there are MANY possibilities already to getting the estate working with a stronger strut, a lot of them being Vauxhall, strangely enough, but then one sprung out at me that according to the specs might be a surprisingly perfect answer:

 

Mk1 Octavia VRS hatchback!

 

Turns out, apart from the lifting length being 4mm shorter, the dimensions are IDENTICAL to the MkII estate, but it's got 565nm of force! Has to be the VRS version to have that force though, the non-vrs version is only 515nm, which is still stronger, although I suspect the extra force is to counter the VRS having the boot spoiler.

 

So if anyone has a Mk1 and want to give it a shot, they might be pleasantly surprised. How absolutely f*cking ridiculous!! :rofl:

 

(if it's STILL not enough with a second hand strut, there are quite a few stronger alternative... but we don't want the boot to fly up like an ejector seat I'm guessing!! )

Edited 14 May, 2015 by blackspaven

[Tilt]

My dad had an automatic boot years ago!...........................

 

                                                                  ............................Automatically went up my arse when I did something wrong, .

                                                                                                                                                     (I can laugh about it now).

Edited 14 May, 2015 by Tilt

[radders567]

Absolutely. I'm positive the key is in getting stronger struts to carry the throw once the spring has done it's bump start. Do you have any idea what exact model or even better part number you have for your strut cos I could see on the FEBI list how much force it throws out in comparison to the original octavia hatchback unit?

 

Scratch that, already been answered in Post #211. Interesting thought that the housing is much bigger. Looks like there is plenty of room to play with hopefully.

This is FEBI's listing for the octy (hatch then estate)

Capture.PNG

 

This is the Renualt equivalent that I think you fitted Radders...

 

Capture1.PNG

Looks like it.

[blackspaven]

Gonna go to the scrappy on monday probably and try what I think will work. Not saying anything before then in case someone gets to the car in question before me!

[m0bov]

Ok, for my Estate I ordered the Laguna struts, I noticed the are longer. Is this correct? The sockets on the end are smaller, I could swap them over but I might as well get new ones if I can source them.

 

i have a selection of springs and the heat shrink from before. Or do I need the SEAT struts?

[m0bov]

Looks like I went for the wrong ones! Anyone got a link for the Seat ones? Anyone wanna buy my unused Laguna struts?!

[m0bov]

Quick google found this:- http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SEAT-EXEO-GAS-TAILGATE-BOOT-STRUTS-ESTATE-2009-/120997717393?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item1c2c06a591

[meistars]

As english isn't my first language, i didn't quite get what am i supposed to do after removing the strut,

to get the spring on it. Am I supposed to unscrew something or do it with strenght?

[m0bov]

Does the Seat struts for the Combi fit the stud mounts or do I need to remove the ends of the old struts and swap with over?

[mrhappy]

YOU ARE NOT GOING TO BELIEVE THIS!!!!

 

Okay, so I'm a way down the FEBI list and there are MANY possibilities already to getting the estate working with a stronger strut, a lot of them being Vauxhall, strangely enough, but then one sprung out at me that according to the specs might be a surprisingly perfect answer:

 

Mk1 Octavia VRS hatchback!

 

Turns out, apart from the lifting length being 4mm shorter, the dimensions are IDENTICAL to the MkII estate, but it's got 565nm of force! Has to be the VRS version to have that force though, the non-vrs version is only 515nm, which is still stronger, although I suspect the extra force is to counter the VRS having the boot spoiler.

 

So if anyone has a Mk1 and want to give it a shot, they might be pleasantly surprised. How absolutely f*cking ridiculous!! :rofl:

 

(if it's STILL not enough with a second hand strut, there are quite a few stronger alternative... but we don't want the boot to fly up like an ejector seat I'm guessing!! )

Blackspaven, can you confirm whether the Octavia I estate struts are the ones to go for for Octavia II estate?  I have tired old struts on mine and with the 'red' springs they're not enouhg to fully lift the tailgate.  While I'm replacing the struts it'd be nice to know which ones will give the best chance of this working permanently!  Thanks!

[mrhappy]

Blackspaven, can you confirm whether the Octavia I estate struts are the ones to go for for Octavia II estate?  I have tired old struts on mine and with the 'red' springs they're not enouhg to fully lift the tailgate.  While I'm replacing the struts it'd be nice to know which ones will give the best chance of this working permanently!  Thanks!

 

Or... what are the 'stronger alternatives' with dimensions to fit the Octavia II estate?

[blackspaven]

I haven't found anyone conveniently near enough to me with an octy I to test them so can't help yet. There was peugeot I tried it from in the local scrappy but it flew up far too strong for my liking: pushing it back down seemed to hold a LOT of pent up tension in the strut!

 

Oh, and read carefully, it's not a MkI estate, it's a MkI hatchback, VRS ONLY because the boot is heavier due to the spoiler which subsequently makes the struts needed to lift it to be stronger than the non-vrs model.

 

Think there's a fair chance, I was more concerned whether they'd always work or fade like other ones. the Laguna ones earlier in the thread work fine but I have no idea if they'll last once they start to age, and I've not seen an old model in the scrappy to test that theory yet. New ones worked well, check earlier in the thread, but I suspect brand new standard octy estate replacements would work for a while before failing too.

Edited 12 November, 2015 by blackspaven

[planehazza]

Hi all.

 

Bumping this thread. Seems a shame that red springs alone aren't enough.

 

I'm not sure if it was ever confirmed that VRS MKI springs worked perfectly, but can I check that these Laguna springs are still the recommended choice, along with red die springs?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RENAULT-Laguna-III-Grandtour-07-Tailgate-Boot-Struts-Gas-Springs-Lifters-x2-SET-/141615081845?hash=item20f8eaa975:m:mw2qD-rnfhgEXhbadypq8AA

 

My car is a 2010 VRS Oct hatchback, so the struts are probably not at their best being 6 years old.

Edited 2 May, 2016 by planehazza

[blackspaven]

Still waiting until I'm down Winchester way for another member to let me play on their Mk1 to find out.

 

Only thing I'm wary of of the Laguna ones is that they're always bought brand new on this thread so I'd expect them to work. I'd expect brand new MkII struts to work as well as they're gonna be powerful if they're new. It's when they've been on the car a few years which is what I was trying to find out as they all lose efficiency.

 

Still, if anyone has a Mk1 and lives anywhere near Wokingham or Farnborough, I'll give it a go and report back.