Average vRS Oil Temperature

[jonny boy]

No mention of Mobil 1 ?

[BonnevillevRS]

The minimum your oil temp will be on this engine is 90 degrees as it is a coolant cooled heat exchanger, so when your coolant is 90 degrees at idle your oil temp can only be as cool as 90 degrees if the heat exchanger was working at 100% efficiency.

As for a dyno, a dyno is loaded at a minimum to be equivilant to driving on a flat road. I would load it higher if I wanted to pay particular attention to a section of mapping. You also have to remember that 2 sweep tests will normally have the engine fans cutting in and that is in a cell with an air transfer rate of over 10,000 litres of air per minute and directed cooling fans. That is our cell and its not the best in the country. Once the vehicle is up to temps the only thing that will stop me pulling sweeps is the tyre temps as you can get roller pinch which overheats the tyres. The Bonneville car we were pulling 20-30 pulls without a break in Salt Lake City (thats 55 degree ambient, 5,000 ft altitude on a stock engine running 30 psi of boost).

A step test will put even more stress on an engine, as you will hold the car at 3,000rpm in 4th, let the dyno run max load then release the dyno to the next step (5 or 6k) and repeat......

10 Minutes on a dyno is far harder than 30 minutes non stop on track...remember dyno work is wide open throttle pulls from idle in 4th gear....you don't get the luxury of vehicle momentum on rollers to reaccelerate you down the straight. It is pure engine torque spinning the loaded (loaded is similar to driving with brakes on) rollers that doesn't have the same rate of air cooling or airbox pressurisation.

But we are getting away from the OP questions. Oil temps lower than 110 - 120 degrees on the road with good quality oil will not cause your engine to behave or wear any differently than oil temps at 90 degrees.....I would only start worrying if I were pulling temps towards 140+ degrees on the road! Oil is a coolant as much as a lubricant and modern day oils are superb!

[vRSy]

Cheers for the explanation pal.

The coolant/oil heat exchanger explains why water temps were getting really high on trackdays as well as the oil and also why ive experienced a reduction or 5-10^oC in oil temperatures on trackdays since fitting the bigger radiator. I had put that down to me running a different tuners map.

I still find it very strange that the oil temps in this Fabia with only a little bit of power run 20degrees higher oil temperatures than my last two cars which had 70-80Hp more power, 20 degrees higher than my friends RS4 with 500hp and after searching the forums even the likes of 700Hp+ skylines/supras all run oil temps less than mine on track. Its no wonder this little 1.4TSI has an engine bay thats akin to an oven

[BonnevillevRS]

Hello Mate!

You will probably find the heat exchanger is the biggest reason! in your case anyway!

The bigger power stuff you refer to are running air cooled oil coolers (like radiators) and are even running gearbox oil coolers of the same manner, they are just designed to deal with big power and big temps!

There was a company talking of developing an oil cooler plate on these (the older TFSI 2.0 engines have them as a performance upgrade). This means you can run a proper oil cooler and "dump" the heat exchanger.

This engine is running further up in its efficiency banding (quite a lot of power for a 1.4) compared to say the 150PS single charger 1.4. So the more power it creates, the more heat is created as a by product. This in turn is transferred to the oil not only the coolant, hence why its an over as you rightly say.

But, its nice to see you concentrating on the right things when tuning a motor...oil temp values is more important to the coolant values as the oil temp is reflecting the heat the engine components are running under rather than the heat around the combustion chamber.....

It's a tasty vRS you have though...must be happy APR are in the UK now too...based in Milton Keynes with Volkswagen Racing!

[vRSy]

Yeah very happy.  Next week ApR have my car to  continue with the software development whilst VWRacing sort out the chassis and brakes.  Its a proper one stop shop for tuning now.

Adding a small 7 row oil cooler in the front  grill fed from a thermostatic sandwhich plate under the oil filterwill help with the cooling.  I'm wary of overstressing the oil pump  though, but the small cooler, short oil lines(about 300mm) and the fact that it will only open the valve to the cooler above 87°C  should hopefully not stress the pump to much more

[BonnevillevRS]

So what you having done to the chassis and brakes then?

The oil cooler will help, you could run an electric fuel pump to feed the oil cooler...that will help take the strain off!

Not seen a sandwich plate for this filter yet...let me know how it fits on!

[vRSy]

Full engine mount set, 330mm 4 pot BBK, top mounts, poly bushes and AST adjustable coilovers. Im getting progressive springs for the ASTs though so its more compliant on the road. They offer both linear and progressive springs which are interchangable so if i feel its not stiff enough at a later date i can upgrade to the linear springs

[BonnevillevRS]

Yeah linear is a bit track orientated...we run linear rate on the bikes at BSB but different science I suppose!

Engines mounts make a world of difference! lol

[Ootohere]

Thread revival on this one.

I have used many different oils in Twinchargers, 

but i am more than a little amazed with oil i bought from Asda.

5w 40 Full Synthetic,  meets VW 502 00,  5 Litres for £22 the day i bought it.

 Gone in to buy more today and i got 3 x 5 Litre cans which was all they had left & £16 for 5 Litres.

 

I did 900 miles with it in & a new Filter, and the Indicated Temp was low, and fuel economy was good,

Done another 200 miles today and the Indicated Oil temp never got as high as 90*oC, First 60 mph Average Speed Cameras and then through a 70mph route with Average Speed cameras & it sat at 82*oC constantly.

Worth buying the ASDA Oil for a Twincharger, at least to try IMO.

 

Stage 1 CAVE, 99 Ron & 215/40 R 17 tyres.

[Grantwebster]

Full engine mount set, 330mm 4 pot BBK, top mounts, poly bushes and AST adjustable coilovers. Im getting progressive springs for the ASTs though so its more compliant on the road. They offer both linear and progressive springs which are interchangable so if i feel its not stiff enough at a later date i can upgrade to the linear springs

You must have a big wallet hahaha

Sent from my SM-T530 using Tapatalk

[SeaGoat]

I have just completed a 65 mile journey at an average speed of 50 MPH with an ambient outside temperature of 13.5 Degrees C.

On the Motorway, the temperature ranged from 92 to 95 Degrees C.

On 'B' roads it ranged from 89 and 90 Degrees C.

The figures above were taken off the MFD so may be a bit suspect.

Over some 18,000 miles I have never had the oil temperature above 100 Degrees C and on a reasonable journey around town or on fast roads I would expect to see a temperature at or above about 90 Degrees C so the temperatures above are fairly typical.

 

Calculated MPG over this time has been 40.1 MPG.

[Ootohere]

Is that with Castrol or Quantum 5w 30 Long Life oil in?

Has the engine had 1 Oil and Filter change done now?

 

If you change to 5W 40 & not Quantum 5w 40 (for fixed servicing) you might notice the Oil Temp in the same circumstances is indicating a bit lower, maybe even the MPG might be a bit better.

[briscaF1]

Could cooler oil mean it's not transferring heat away from hot parts as well as it should or is it just down to better lubrication = less friction= cooler oil?

Sent from my XT1039

[VrsGeo]

Means ur not driving fast enough in my book!

[Ootohere]

70 mph as an average is fast enough is it not?

[vxh26]

To return (sort of) to the original question, does anyone actually know what is an acceptable upper limit for car engine oil temperature?

 

I realise that the vRS is more highly tuned than your typical engine but it would be interesting to read an informed, substantiated acceptable engine oil temperature range for everyday road use in a reasonably priced family car.

 

What are the consequences (for the oil) of exceeding the upper engine oil temperature limit?

 

I know (from Wikipedia) that the second number in a multi-grade oil represents the viscosity at 100°C. Therefore 5W-30 has a viscosity of 30 at an oil temperature of 100°C which would tend to suggest that 100°C is a normal operating temperature would it not?

[Woland]

In normal use it's around 90 - 100 degC. But in hard use it can go up to 130 - 140degC. And that's not a problem.

 

With our Fabia, we focus on oil temp because of the oil consumption issue AND mostly because we HAVE the oil temp information ! If we had no access to oil temp, would we worry so much about it ?

 

Also when you realize that on some engines (EA888 for example) the coolant is regulated from 80degC up to 115degC (!) in normal use and the temp needle stays right on 90 ... Well, I wouldn't worry so much.

[vxh26]

Interesting but doesn't really address the question "What are the consequences (for the oil) of exceeding the upper engine oil temperature limit?"

 

And as to the "coolant is regulated from 80degC up to 115degC"; surely coolant is what is in the radiator, rather than being the oil isn't it? Since that is usually mostly water, wouldn't it boil - and thus turn to steam and expand dramatically?

 

ps - I know absolutely nothing about the EA888 or its cooling strategy.

[Ootohere]

Coolant might be mostly H20 unless 'Waterless Coolant'.

It does not have the Boiling point or freezing point of H20.

Because you have the Added Chemicals to Modify the Boiling and Freezing Points.

& it is Pressurised as the Coolant, which again changes the Boiling Point, 

and you exclude Air, so as not to create Steam.

 

The Coolant is passing through and in the Radiator to Cool it from the temperature it is at going through the Engine in its channels.  Radiators to cool the Coolant, Coolant through the Engine to take heat out of the Block & Head.

The Oil is a Coolant going through separate routes, cooling the engine, and oil is also lubricating.

The Coolant is to cool the Oil.

 

You have Oil Coolers, OIl Pumps,  Coolant Pumps, Cooling Fans for the Radiator & the OIl, and the Gearbox.

The Coolant and the Oil should not mix, but they run through the Engine, and then go to be Air Cooled.

 

Simples really.

 

This was the Engine before VW took it to 132-136kW

http://volkspage.net/technik/ssp/ssp/SSP_359.pdf

Show you the Oil system, and the Coolant System.

 

 

[Breezy_Pete]

Oil starts to degrade at a much faster rate when temperatures get too high. What is 'too high' will depend on the exact oil.

[Ootohere]

[vxh26]

OK, let's take these points about "Coolant temperature" bit by bit then:

 

Coolant does not have the boiling point or freezing point of water.

Because you have the added chemicals to modify the boiling and freezing points.

And it is pressurised as the coolant, which again changes the boiling point,

 

So, what is the typical range of effective boiling points for car petrol engine coolant then?

 

The coolant (water and chemicals) passes through the radiator to cool the coolant from the temperature it reaches as a result of going through the channels in the engine so that it can take heat out of the engine block & head.

The radiator and fan(s) cool the coolant.

The oil also acts as a coolant as it goes through separate routes in the engine.

The coolant is to cool the oil.

 

Not really, the coolant is to cool the engine.  The engine has oil running around it which is also taking away heat . . . based on your observations above.

 

 

Once again, my question was "What are the consequences (for the oil) of exceeding the upper engine oil temperature limit" and what is a realistic optimum engine oil temperature for day-to-day driving in an average car - therefore probably NOT a vRS which enjoys the pleasures and pains of a turbocharger and a supercharger?

 

[Ootohere]

http://theaa.com/motoring_advice/general-advice/antifreeze-coolant.html

 

There are Sections in this Forum and others where smart people might answer your questions.

Or maybe why not do your usual and research it online, go to a Public or Reference library, or go do a few Modules on Mechanical & Vehicle Engineering.

Maybe Evening Classes on Basic Car Maintenance.

 

It is just a 1390 cc Engine in a Family Car not some Racing Car Engine.

Developed or Under-Developed by the Volkswagen Group and now production is discontinued by them.

They had flaws and fundamental defects in Component choice from the beginning.

& VW Recommend there usual Oils for what is just a Family Passenger car.

[SuperTurbo]

For the first two years I always ran the vw recommended castrol rubbish, about as good as using water. Higher average temps and some oil consumption.

The last year I've been using Comma X Flow Type V 5w30 vw 504 spec. Costs me about £18 for 5 litres. Consumption is now zero and indicated oil temp significantly lower.

[briscaF1]

Coolant might be mostly H20 unless 'Waterless Coolant'.

It does not have the Boiling point or freezing point of H20.

Because you have the Added Chemicals to Modify the Boiling and Freezing Points.

& it is Pressurised as the Coolant, which again changes the Boiling Point,

and you exclude Air, so as not to create Steam.

...

This was the Engine before VW took it to 132-136kW

http://volkspage.net/technik/ssp/ssp/SSP_359.pdf

Show you the Oil system, and the Coolant System.

Do you have one of those guides for the 1.2TSI please?

Sent from my XT1039

Edited 24 October, 2015 by briscaF1