DSG or manual

[Kiwibacon]

That makes me feel really sorry for the millions of other auto drivers in New Zealand who probably don't have the technical ability to fit such a device to make their car even remotely driveable. How on earth do they manage? Funnily enough, when I was in New Zealand (both North and South Islands) I saw quite a few automatics!

 

Most of them are oblivious to what their car and engines are doing.  It's only when the overheat or lose brakes that they take any notice. 

It is frightening how many people don't know about engine braking, you can smell their brakes while following them downhill and even see smoke pouring off their brakes in some cases.

 

NZ is full of used japanese imports.  About 90% of which are automatic.  These are JDM cars designed to do 80km/h around Japan, they get really noisey and awful at even 100km/h.  The related Japanese cars sold in Europe have far better sound insulation and suspension, often with higher gearing too.

[powerd]

Kiwibacon - you don't think it might have something to do with the aging nature of the vehicle fleet over  there?  And the fact you have many ex-Japan used vehicles with dubious service records, not specced for the different conditions of NZ?  I was driving around there 3 weeks ago and it was a bit like driving through a (Japanese-flavoured) car museum, particularly on the South island - slight exaggeration only. 

 

Mind you, in the 1100kms I drove around both islands, I didn't experience conditions and grades that are much different from what I drive and tow in here in Oz.  Given I live 640m above sea level, and drive both up and down from here through the Snowys and the Great Dividing Range, 1000m climbs are familiar to me.  And others.  My 1996 200,000km old 3.2L V6 auto Holden Jackaroo(Izuzu Trooper to others), after a lifetime of towing (admittedly not max weight) still changes beautifully, having had nothing but regular services and fluid changes.  As they usually do - hard to kill.  100 Series Cruisers, although getting a bit old, are regarded as good, robust high load tow and heavy duty offroad vehicles, even in our extreme heat which you don't experience.  Plenty of people use auto ones rather than manuals too. I am not aware of any endemic auto transmission problems being reported on the 4WD forums I frequent, although people will sometimes fit transmission coolers on older models which don't have high capacity ones already.  In fact, people here prefer autos, particularly when towing large vans (2-3,500kg) which are relatively common here.  Most 4WDs bought here in recent years for towing are large auto turbodiesels such as Landcruiser, Discovery, Jeep Grand Cherokee, Mitsubishi Pajero, etc with dual cab utes in auto turbdiesel becoming very popular, particularly among the tradies.  All durable and capable.

 

Funny autos should be so unreliable in NZ but durable here, when we typically tow heavier loads in much hotter conditions - 35-40 degrees puts heavy loads on drivetrains but most vehicles these days seem well able to cope without problems..  And Unzudders drive so slowly you would think they are off to a funeral.  I even saw a sign by the roadside on the South island proudly boasting "New Zealanders Drive Slowly" - you're not wrong!

 

Cheers

powerd

[wokwon]

OT, but speaking of hills in NZ and automatics , I'll be there in September with my parents and Dad has (unwisely) chosen to rent a Nissan Wingroad which is apparently a 1.3 litre NA petrol with the worst kind of gearbox ever invented, a CVT.  That should be fun.

[Alvaro]

So, answering hulahoop7 question, who started this topic:

 

All in all, hulahoop7 should choose between manual or DSG depending on Australia and New Zealand hills, although you live in London.

 

:wonder: :p

 

 

Ask for a driving test on a DSG and decide yourself

[powerd]

Good point Alvaro.  You speak sense.

 

There again, isn't the whole point of internet forums not to remain focussed on the original question and confuse the argument?  Sadly.  Just like politicians?

 

I'll take an aspirin and have a good lie down.

 

Cheers

powerd

[JakeBlade]

Good point Alvaro. You speak sense.

There again, isn't the whole point of internet forums not to remain focussed on the original question and confuse the argument? Sadly. Just like politicians?

I'll take an aspirin and have a good lie down.

Cheers

powerd

No, you shouldn't have aspirin. Paracetamol is what you should have: it's much better.

(See what I did there?).

[stevehg]

No, you shouldn't have aspirin. Paracetamol is what you should have: it's much better.

(See what I did there?).

Both old school now, ibuprofen is the one most manufacturers are using now ;)

[old newbie2]

No, you shouldn't have aspirin. Paracetamol is what you should have: it's much better.

(See what I did there?).

Bad, very bad person............

 

As for the original poster's question, IMVHO a Superb is better suited to a DSG than a manual box, if only 'cos it suits the pipe & slippers image!

 

If performance is required, then selecting "S"  can help....

 

DC

(Owner of both 6-speed DSG's & a manual.)

[steve20bore]

 I had a test drive in both and ordered the one I preferred.

 

 

 Seemed like a good idea 

 

 

 

 

Steve.

[Its me]

I had a test drive in both and ordered the one I preferred.

Seemed like a good idea

Steve.

That's novel!!

Seems like a good idea though

Regards all

Juan

Sent from my iPhone using my thumbs

Edited 11 August, 2013 by Its me

[Kiwibacon]

Kiwibacon - you don't think it might have something to do with the aging nature of the vehicle fleet over  there?  And the fact you have many ex-Japan used vehicles with dubious service records, not specced for the different conditions of NZ?  I was driving around there 3 weeks ago and it was a bit like driving through a (Japanese-flavoured) car museum, particularly on the South island - slight exaggeration only. 

 

Mind you, in the 1100kms I drove around both islands, I didn't experience conditions and grades that are much different from what I drive and tow in here in Oz.  Given I live 640m above sea level, and drive both up and down from here through the Snowys and the Great Dividing Range, 1000m climbs are familiar to me.  And others.  My 1996 200,000km old 3.2L V6 auto Holden Jackaroo(Izuzu Trooper to others), after a lifetime of towing (admittedly not max weight) still changes beautifully, having had nothing but regular services and fluid changes.  As they usually do - hard to kill.  100 Series Cruisers, although getting a bit old, are regarded as good, robust high load tow and heavy duty offroad vehicles, even in our extreme heat which you don't experience.  Plenty of people use auto ones rather than manuals too. I am not aware of any endemic auto transmission problems being reported on the 4WD forums I frequent, although people will sometimes fit transmission coolers on older models which don't have high capacity ones already.  In fact, people here prefer autos, particularly when towing large vans (2-3,500kg) which are relatively common here.  Most 4WDs bought here in recent years for towing are large auto turbodiesels such as Landcruiser, Discovery, Jeep Grand Cherokee, Mitsubishi Pajero, etc with dual cab utes in auto turbdiesel becoming very popular, particularly among the tradies.  All durable and capable.

 

Funny autos should be so unreliable in NZ but durable here, when we typically tow heavier loads in much hotter conditions - 35-40 degrees puts heavy loads on drivetrains but most vehicles these days seem well able to cope without problems..  And Unzudders drive so slowly you would think they are off to a funeral.  I even saw a sign by the roadside on the South island proudly boasting "New Zealanders Drive Slowly" - you're not wrong!

 

Cheers

powerd

 

Yes the average car here is 12-13 years old.  Most of the cheap rental outfits run used japanese cars.  Interestingly my own fleet has an average age of 16.5 years.

 

Did you drive the Haast, Lindis or Arthurs Passes while you were here?  Just curious which Australian roads rival those.  Arthurs pass reaches 17% gradient on the approach to the viaduct.  Grey Nomads (most of Australias towing) pulling a big caravan on the flat in 35C is far easier on a vehicle than trying to pull up say Porters Pass at 25km/h with a mere 2.5T behind.

 

We hit 35C reasonably most summers here, but 40C is very rare. 

The old 4sp automatics are mostly reliable when they cool back down, it's the engines they kill with over-heat.  The ZF 6sp used in the D3/D4/RRS can hit lockup in most of it's gears and hence doesn't suffer the heat production of prior autos.  It is the first auto that I felt I could live with. 

I actually like it more than DSG.

In a 100 series cruiser you can choose between the early slushly but bulletproof 4sp auto or the later less slushy and not as strong 5sp auto.  The 100 series owner I know (1HD-FTE, 4sp auto) really really wants a manual gearbox.

 

South Islanders driving slowly?  Most of them will be tourists in rentals.  Some are very subtlely badges as rentals, others not at all.  The best drive I've had down the West Coast was at 3am when all the campervans were parked for the night.

[Kiwibacon]

OT, but speaking of hills in NZ and automatics , I'll be there in September with my parents and Dad has (unwisely) chosen to rent a Nissan Wingroad which is apparently a 1.3 litre NA petrol with the worst kind of gearbox ever invented, a CVT.  That should be fun.

 

That'll be very noisey (they have no sound insulation and we have coarse road seal) and very slow.  But if you pump the tyres up (add 4psi to the placard numbers) they handle quite well and it should do 40mpg.

 

I wasn't aware they matched the CVT to the smaller engines.  Normally those got 4sp autos with the QG engines (1.3, 1.5, 1.8L) and only CVT with the 2.0 engines (SR20 in the fast ZV model).  My work car is related to the wingroad, but it's 2.2 turbo diesel 5sp manual and 4wd.

I have added around 100kg of sound insulation to it.

[Supurbia]

Nothing wrong with a modern CVT either, Toyota Prius has proven that and the petrol Avensis T27 is also fitted with them, only one thing I'd say is a miss is they still have that milk float effect where it sounds like a bansaw

[Graham Butcher]

Yes the average car here is 12-13 years old.  Most of the cheap rental outfits run used japanese cars.  Interestingly my own fleet has an average age of 16.5 years.

 

Did you drive the Haast, Lindis or Arthurs Passes while you were here?  Just curious which Australian roads rival those.  Arthurs pass reaches 17% gradient on the approach to the viaduct.  Grey Nomads (most of Australias towing) pulling a big caravan on the flat in 35C is far easier on a vehicle than trying to pull up say Porters Pass at 25km/h with a mere 2.5T behind.

 

We hit 35C reasonably most summers here, but 40C is very rare. 

The old 4sp automatics are mostly reliable when they cool back down, it's the engines they kill with over-heat.  The ZF 6sp used in the D3/D4/RRS can hit lockup in most of it's gears and hence doesn't suffer the heat production of prior autos.  It is the first auto that I felt I could live with. 

I actually like it more than DSG.

In a 100 series cruiser you can choose between the early slushly but bulletproof 4sp auto or the later less slushy and not as strong 5sp auto.  The 100 series owner I know (1HD-FTE, 4sp auto) really really wants a manual gearbox.

 

South Islanders driving slowly?  Most of them will be tourists in rentals.  Some are very subtlely badges as rentals, others not at all.  The best drive I've had down the West Coast was at 3am when all the campervans were parked for the night.

Is this what you are judging DSG's against? Its a bit like comparing apples with pears.

 

DSG's do not have the fluid flywheels and torque convertors and as a result presumably do not need to have intercoolers either. I have driven many vehicles that are automatics of the type that are talking about and they you are poles apart from  a DSG box.

Edited 12 August, 2013 by Graham Butcher

[Kiwibacon]

Is this what you are judging DSG's against? Its a bit like comparing apples with pears.

 

DSG's do not have the fluid flywheels and torque convertors and as a result presumably do not need to have intercoolers either. I have driven many vehicles that are automatics of the type that are talking about and they you are poles apart from  a DSG box.

 

No, not at all.  DSG is a far better drive than any 4sp auto.  Hell a 4sp manual is a better drive than most 4sp autos.

 

To compare DSG to a conventional auto I look to the 6sp ZF's used inline in the landrovers and transverse in the likes of the Mondeo.  I actually preferred the Mondeo 6sp auto to the 6sp DSG. 

The reasons were consistent shifting (no 2 second hunt at a roundabout looking for the right gear in the ZF) and the shift quality.  That ZF was the first auto that I could manually select a gear at 1400rpm, plant foot and it would hold the gear.

 

I prefer manual over them all.

 

Superbia, the Prius isn't like any other CVT, it's a planetary which uses the electric drive motor as speed control.  Fendt tractors use a similar but hydraulic system.  You need another power source (electric or hydraulic) with similar power to the engine to make it work.

Nissan have done CVT from the late 90's in small petrol engines.  But I have never driven one.  People who own them, love them, until something goes wrong.

Honda have done CVT in the Jazz for a long time now.  Again small petrol engines.

Audi's 8sp multitronic auto box is a 4sp auto with a CVT splitter on the tail.  It's okay but not particularly efficient so fuel consumption suffers.

Edited 12 August, 2013 by Kiwibacon

[stevehg]

Nissan have done CVT from the late 90's in small petrol engines.  But I have never driven one.  People who own them, love them, until something goes wrong.

Not just small engines, I drove an Infinit QX60 in US week before last that had a 3.5 V6 (265 bhp) and CVT.

Interestingly it had manual shift mode, and also drive mode for snow, Eco , std and Sport. Moving between Eco and Sport did alter responsiveness of transmission, I didn't try manual shift mode to see what that felt like. Should have at the time, but I didn't realise it was a CVT at the time. I looked it up after I handed it back, as it felt quite different to other Infiniti's I have driven.

It also had an unnerving Brake Assist mode under heavy breaking appeared to brake all wheels independently. Personally, I would have preferred a bit of lock up, as you no longer feel in control. Fortunately,nI was on only playing, by scrubbing a lot of speed rapidly on an exit ramp with no one around. The QX60 is a big beast though, makes a Merchant G class look small!

[United 11]

I would only use a DSG if I had resasnobly low annual mileage, one of the other taxi drivers just traded in his 58 plate Octavia for a pre fl superb 13 plate aqua blue hatch 2.0 TDI DSG SE+, he got it for £15,995 cause they are selling off all old stock, I told him that a DSG will not stand the intense mileage and with a box oil change every 40,000 mile, more £££ too, reliability is what I buy vw products for, my annual mileage is 40,000

[Supurbia]

I would only use a DSG if I had resasnobly low annual mileage, one of the other taxi drivers just traded in his 58 plate Octavia for a pre fl superb 13 plate aqua blue hatch 2.0 TDI DSG SE+, he got it for £15,995 cause they are selling off all old stock, I told him that a DSG will not stand the intense mileage and with a box oil change every 40,000 mile, more £££ too, reliability is what I buy vw products for, my annual mileage is 40,000

 

 

It will stand it, and he'll still be on his clutch plates long after a manual one has had two full clutches done, tell him to start listening for a rattle like a stone in a washing machine at around 90k this is the the flywheel and it's important not to ignore it or it does the same thing a cog does when it leaves the box at high speed, tell him also once it's out of warranty to consider just changing the DSG filter @ £15 rather than £180 for the oil as well, dunk a new filter in fresh DSG oil for an hour, drain and change, the oil I think does not de-grade but the filter is mighty important.

[Kiwibacon]

Keep in mind DSG boxes have dual mass flywheels too.  They should be easier on them than a manual, but at high mileage you'd still have to factor in getting one replaced.

[MarkyB77]

Most people give reasons for and against about lazyness, how easy, how much cheaper, how many problems.

 

My spin on it is, when you are driving, you want to feel like you are in control, not the computer says no scenario.

 

Driving to me is a skill, when you introduce things that are automatic, you just are nervous and thinking, what would I do if this goes wrong, just like the stuck on accelerators, in the toyota's in the states, in a manual, you would simple dip the clutch, whack it out of gear, and let the engine die, as it revs its nuts off, as you coast and brakes to a stop, not ideal, but still not the end of the world, and perfectly safe by comparison to not being able to do it and accelerating to your death.

 

Just like push button starts, rather than a simple key... turn off the engine... computer says no

 

Just like remote central locking... great, while there is a battery, but... where do the keys go to open the door manually, when the battery is dead... give me a key hole please in my door.

 

Just like auto locking ... when you leave keys in the car...

 

Just like electric windows and poor kids fingers, and heads being hanging out them...

 

Just like Auto lights ... and they come on at random times of the day... like a one way tunnel and the car coming the other way says oh great he's flashed me

 

When your driving a car, you are doing that, you dont need to rest a foot... (are we really that lazy?)

When your driving a car, do you really need a hand free to "text" while driving... most people do not take the option to have two hands on the wheel

 

I just find it lazy... and then people dont really concentrate on driving as much as they should.

 

However....

 

regardless of all this I have a manual superb combi 140 tdi, and find the setup, and positioning of the pedal to be badly designed to be fully depressed in the superb with very long travel, and for this reason alone, i'd get a DSG box. My next one will be a DSG lol I just thought the technology was too new when I got my last one, and there was still "problems" I was hearing of. 2 years to go...

 

;-)

 

Have fun in your DSG's :-D

[dippo]

Maybe we should go back to the starting handle, so that you don't accidentally start the car by turning the ignition key too far!

[Supurbia]

Keep in mind DSG boxes have dual mass flywheels too.  They should be easier on them than a manual, but at high mileage you'd still have to factor in getting one replaced.

 

 

Around 90-100k is the general life of a DSG DMF.