DSG question

[g6zru]

I have just ordered an SE 140 Yeti DSG 4X4.

I've never driven DSG before but was impressed during a test drive but now I've started thinking about how my driving style will be affected by it. My main concern is what effect it has on engine braking. My test drive was fairly short and all over level roads and so it didn't occur to me to ask about this.

Any comments from confirmed DSG drivers?

 

Fred

[muckingfuppet]

Engine braking, knock it into manual and drop it a couple of gears and it will hold, or if you leave it in drive, drop it a couple of gears on the paddles and don't touch the throttle it will similarly hold the gear you are in. Works very well, don't think you'll be disappointed.

[Llanigraham]

Yeti's don't have paddles!! (as standard)

[33q]

A short touch on the brakes whilst going down hill will cause the box to drop a cog or two. It works very well.

 

I rarely ever use anything but D.

[mannyo]

DSG is not like a conventional torque converter auto, with DSG its more like a manual so you have engine braking as normal. 

[oldstan]

Fair question and I suspect you'll get plenty of replies. 

 

Mine in a 1.2 petrol - can't comment on the diesel.

 

The DSG is a peculiar thing with a mind of it's own at times....I like it a lot for the vast majority of the time.

 

But you specifically asked about engine braking (EB) and I am conscious of what the DSG is capable of it when driving and compare it to driving a manual quite a lot.

 

The main point I think I'd make is that to increase the degree of EB on the approach to hazards, junctions traffic lights etc. or when anticipating a downhill stretch I sometimes use the SPORT mode. This definitely has the effect of allowing the DSG to automatically select lower gears than in the normal D mode. Whether I do it or how often I do it depends entirely on individual circumstances but it has the effect of putting you in a higher gear which you might want for EB or just because you feel you'd like a higher RPM for, maybe, firmly accelerating out of a roundabout and you 'd like the higher rev. range that SPORT gives you over the D mode.

 

Occasionally, when descendind a sharp hill, you'll find it selects a higher gear or two all on it's own...it kind of senses you're descending and thinks you'd like some EB and you might see the RPM rise quite dramatically....I've seen people on here complaining that the DSG is defective as it increases the RPM in such a manner....but I don't see a defect so much as a characteristic. And you'll find that you can dictate the degree to which the aforementioned occurs by delicate throttle adjustments.  It gets quite subtle but you can detect it responding to your throttle opening adjustments and the more you get used to it the more control you can exercise over it.

 

And of course, instead of what I've just said you can manually choose any gear you wish by knocking the lever over to the left and then pushing forward or pulling back on the lever to select whatever gear you want.  To select SPORT from the normal D position requires that you use the release knob on the side of the selector lever and flicking back towards you...it's a piece of cake and soon becomes as natural as finding the wiper stalk or the horn button without taking you eyes off the road.

 

I think it's lovely box and would miss it...but I wouldn't want it outside of warranty - I suggest you take out the extended warranty from new if you think you'll have it beyond three years.

[CFB]

Stan, I'm assuming that when you refer to a higher gear, eg going down steep hills, you actually mean a lower gear as in changing from 5th to 3rd ?

No offence meant, just trying to make things clear for OP.

Personally, I tend to use manual selection and just drop it down a gear or two at the top of the hill and he flick it back into D at the bottom, when EB no longer required.

Love the DSG box but it did take a bit of getting used to. Even after 6 months I still forget it's not a manual some times.

I'm looking forward to some slippy stuff so I can see how it drives on snow compared to the manual?

[spottydog]

I've aired my views on the dsg in a few posts but to summarise:

This is the first dsg I've driven and I've done about 1,500 miles. Overall it is a decent drive but I doubt if I'd have another, the reasons being:

In "D" driving between 27 and 32mph the box constantly changes gear between 3rd to 5th.

If you cruise into a 30 limit by simply lifting off the throttle the car will stay in 6th until the whole car starts to judder then it will drop a gear.

Going downhill you have to brake really hard to get the gears to change down to say, 3rd, to get some engine braking and if you barely, and I mean just, rest your foot on the throttle, the car will immediately change up to 4th then 5th and increase speed.

I now need to brake much, much, more than I ever did with a manual box. Please guys, don't tell me to use tiptronic as this is effectively driving in manual not auto.

Going up the box is a lot smoother than going down.

I feel this is a fair assessment of my experience although I have no doubt others will disagree.

[spottydog]

Sorry there are no paragraphs in my post they always look like this. I don't know why, they used to post ok.

[oldstan]

Stan, I'm assuming that when you refer to a higher gear, eg going down steep hills, you actually mean a lower gear as in changing from 5th to 3rd ?

No offence meant, just trying to make things clear for OP.

 

 

 

Indeed, CFB, Completely wrong - I should have said what you said - lower, not higher.  Sorry 'bout that.... :-)

[Expatman]

I've aired my views on the dsg in a few posts but to summarise: This is the first dsg I've driven and I've done about 1,500 miles. Overall it is a decent drive but I doubt if I'd have another, the reasons being: In "D" driving between 27 and 32mph the box constantly changes gear between 3rd to 5th. If you cruise into a 30 limit by simply lifting off the throttle the car will stay in 6th until the whole car starts to judder then it will drop a gear. Going downhill you have to brake really hard to get the gears to change down to say, 3rd, to get some engine braking and if you barely, and I mean just, rest your foot on the throttle, the car will immediately change up to 4th then 5th and increase speed. I now need to brake much, much, more than I ever did with a manual box. Please guys, don't tell me to use tiptronic as this is effectively driving in manual not auto. Going up the box is a lot smoother than going down. I feel this is a fair assessment of my experience although I have no doubt others will disagree.

You may have a problem with your DSG, I also have the 1.2 Tsi with DSG and don't have any of your problems. It certainly doesn't 'hunt' at the 27 - 32 MPH speeds you mention and it certainly uses engine braking going downhill - unless you accelerate of course - and I don't mean rest your foot on the accelerator. I stick it in D and leave it there, best auto box I have driven and I have driven a lot after living in USA for 14 years.

[Zib]

You may have a problem with your DSG, I also have the 1.2 Tsi with DSG and don't have any of your problems. It certainly doesn't 'hunt' at the 27 - 32 MPH speeds you mention and it certainly uses engine braking going downhill - unless you accelerate of course - and I don't mean rest your foot on the accelerator. I stick it in D and leave it there, best auto box I have driven and I have driven a lot after living in USA for 14 years.

 

Second that.

[oldstan]

I've aired my views on the dsg in a few posts but to summarise: This is the first dsg I've driven and I've done about 1,500 miles. Overall it is a decent drive but I doubt if I'd have another, the reasons being: In "D" driving between 27 and 32mph the box constantly changes gear between 3rd to 5th. If you cruise into a 30 limit by simply lifting off the throttle the car will stay in 6th until the whole car starts to judder then it will drop a gear. Going downhill you have to brake really hard to get the gears to change down to say, 3rd, to get some engine braking and if you barely, and I mean just, rest your foot on the throttle, the car will immediately change up to 4th then 5th and increase speed. I now need to brake much, much, more than I ever did with a manual box. Please guys, don't tell me to use tiptronic as this is effectively driving in manual not auto. Going up the box is a lot smoother than going down. I feel this is a fair assessment of my experience although I have no doubt others will disagree.

 

Certainly not going to dismiss your experiences, Spottydog ... and do, often, find myself thinking that the engine braking isn't as effective as I thought I remembered it to be in previous vehicles, but I also have a torque converter Hyundai automatic and with that I only have the option of changing from D into 2 or 1.  I find that 2 is OK to drop down into at around 40mph - any faster then the rpm jump is a bit excessive and, in car sympathy terms doesn't feel acceptable.  I still find with the Hyundai that the engine braking isn't as effective as I expect it to be.  And I had a CVT Honda previously and that was somewhat limited in achieving engine braking too. 

 

But there can't be a reason for any of the aforegoing affecting engine braking, surely?  The fact that an auto box, or semi auto box, or even a CVT is fitted shouldn't have any bearing on the engine compression can it?  I ask this as a question rather than making a statement as I can't see why an auto should be any less effective...although, as I've said...it does seem to be the case.

 

I agree that the DSG has had it drummed into it's brain that "I will get in to as high a gear as I can as soon as possible" and loads of people have said the same.  Some complain of this but also complain that putting it in SPORT then goes too far the other way and indeed in SPORT it doesn't get into 7th until you're well into 'speeding ticket' territory.  However, as an old fart I don't mind it achieving a low revving stance most of the time, and if I do want to liven it up a bit I'll use SPORT for as long as is needed, then drop back to D.

 

Re. driving it in Tiptronic mode, I guess there will be some bods who will actually say that if YOU decide that you want engine braking then it's acceptable that YOU can decide to over-ride it's normal programming by means of the manual facility which they've gone to the trouble of providing....and I can't think that a CVT or Torque converter box is going to be any more routinely intuitive at giving you as much engine braking as a manual.

 

There always was, & perhaps still is, a school of thought in advanced driving circles that you shouldn't change down through the gears...right the way through the gears...in order to get the engine braking effect and thus saving wear on the brakes. And the argument would go - it's cheaper to replace (or at least create extra wear on)  brake components due to your braking up to a stop - rather than replace (or at least create extra wear in) a gearbox and/or clutch due to your having used it to slow you down.  It does, of course, go on to cover being in the right gear at the right time which may well necessitate a change down by way of anticipation or extra flexibility when approaching a hazard etc.  And there will be those who regard that as tosh anyway and say the gearbox will take a few extra changes or that brake pads and discs are not cheap...(perhaps this harks back to when you could change brake pads or shoes yourself for just a few bob whereas a gearbox was substantially dearer??).

 

However, I wouldn't necessarily agree entirely given that I did once experience severe brake fade/ failure in a fully laden minibus having descended from Haytor on Datmoor and found that the brakes had overheated by the time we'd got to the bottom of the hill...a lesson learned that I should have used the gearbox even more assiduously to achieve engine braking than I did. (Glad it wasn't my minibus...apparently Mercedes Sprinter brakes aren't cheap).

 

All of which has little to do with the price of eggs, so I think I'll go and have a lie down.

[jonathane1976]

The DSG gear box is a manual gear box, "Dual Sequential Gearboxes"

 

It has two clutches and two gear boxes,  you can do anything with a DSG that you can do with a normal manual other than block change (skip gears).

 

If you want to over ride the computer use the hold gears, which prevent it changing up. But will allow it to change down.

 

As you slow down it drops through the gears by itself.

 

I stick it in drive, never use sport or the hold gears and press the gas to go faster, take my foot off the gas to slow and the brake to slow down more. 

 

Other than in the event of brake failure I would never use the gears to slow a vehicle.

 

Brakes to slow, gears to go.

[oldstan]

The DSG gear box is a manual gear box, "Dual Sequential Gearboxes"

 

It has two clutches and two gear boxes,  you can do anything with a DSG that you can do with a normal manual other than block change (skip gears).

 

If you want to over ride the computer use the hold gears, which prevent it changing up. But will allow it to change down.

 

As you slow down it drops through the gears by itself.

 

I stick it in drive, never use sport or the hold gears and press the gas to go faster, take my foot off the gas to slow and the brake to slow down more. 

 

Other than in the event of brake failure I would never use the gears to slow a vehicle.

 

Brakes to slow, gears to go.

 

 

Without wishing to prolong the affair or start WW3, I don't, myself, think the OP wanted to debate whether or not the DSG is classified as an automatic transmission - or a manual gearbox.  (I happen to think it IS an auto and not a manual box...there's no clutch pedal and no conventional gear lever and you  put it in D and need have no further input as you would in a manual).  Yes, we all realise it is described as an automated manual...but that, in my view, doesn't make it a manual gearbox.

 

Also the OP asked that we don't pursue, at length, the "Tiptronic" aspect of the transmission but you have, above, homed in on that facility by way of a response rather than respond to the engine braking qualities of the transmission.

 

But agree you can do as you say....put it in D, use the throttle and brakes without further refinement or driver input...but none of that adresses the basic question the OP was asking.

Edited 4 January, 2014 by oldstan

[Shaker Steve]

Well done on ordering a great car. I have the same car that you are are getting & I love it. Just use the brakes as you would an ordinary car. The auto box does everything else for you. Into N at lights then D to set off & away you go. You will find that it can be very quick away from a standing start if you want it to. You'll love it!

[spottydog]

Whether or not you like the dsg is very subjective and dependant on your preferred driving style. I don't think my dsg is faulty. I think the main issue (although not for everybody) is that the car does try to attain the highest gear asap to achieve the best fuel economy. As such it is usually in 4th or 5th at 30ish mph. 4th is not too bad but 5th is to high. If you need any instant throttle response it is just not there because it takes a couple of seconds to realise it needs to drop a gear or two. I'll just drive around my niggles, but feel a bit deflated, as this is only my 2nd ever new car in 38 years and wish I hadn't spent £1000 on the dsg. A longer test drive was not possible otherwise I may have realised the dsg was not for me.

[oldstan]

Whether or not you like the dsg is very subjective and dependant on your preferred driving style. I don't think my dsg is faulty. I think the main issue (although not for everybody) is that the car does try to attain the highest gear asap to achieve the best fuel economy. As such it is usually in 4th or 5th at 30ish mph. 4th is not too bad but 5th is to high. If you need any instant throttle response it is just not there because it takes a couple of seconds to realise it needs to drop a gear or two. I'll just drive around my niggles, but feel a bit deflated, as this is only my 2nd ever new car in 38 years and wish I hadn't spent £1000 on the dsg. A longer test drive was not possible otherwise I may have realised the dsg was not for me.

 

 

That's a shame and I feel sorry for you.  Is it worth getting your dealer to do one of those adaptive setting thingy's ?  They seem to re-set the software and ensure you are fully up to date and thereafter I gather the electronics "learn" your driving style from scratch.  It might be worth asking? I had mine done once or twice during the investigations into my clutch judder.  (Now that I've had a new clutch pack fitted under warranty the clutch take up is 100% better).

 

I honestly do like my DSG having had it two and a half years and am now thoroughly used to it.  Maybe you'll warm to it in time ? especially if you get it re-set and, hopefully, notice an improvement.

[g6zru]

Well! Thanks to all for your views, I didn't expect or intend to start a war.

I think I've understood all your views and most seem positive. The negative ones seen to refer to the 1.2 and so I'll discount those but thanks for the observations. 

It'll be interesting to see how it works out in practice but I'm looking forward to a new experience, I don't get many of those at my age.

 

Fred

[spottydog]

Thanks Oldstan. I really like the Yeti and the 1.2 engine is brilliant. The dsg will not totally spoil it for me as I can drive around the bits that irritate me and overall the car is one of the best I've had for all round user ability.

[danbarnes]

I have just swapped my 170 TDi for a 140 with DSG, one of the first things i did was to drive down a hill to see how it behaved regarding engine braking. Whatever gear its in when you release both pedals it remains in providing the engine is revving at a seeable amount but as soon as you touch the brake pedal it will change down a gear or two to give as much engine braking as necessary. As soon as you touch the throttle it will change up again. The gears can be changed as you require just by using the pedals, without braking or throttling sharply.

[spottydog]

Yes Danbarnes you are right. However it will be slightly different with you having a diesel because it revs a lot lower. With the 1.2, when you brake going down hill it will, for example, drop down to 3rd gear and be revving at, say, 4000 rpm (haven't checked exactly so don't quote me on that). However if you just touch the throttle, no matter how gently, the car, quite rightly, assumes you want to pick up speed. But!! the 1.2 usually changes up at about 2000 rpm. I am doing 4000 rpm so it immediately changes up 2 gears and picks up speed very quickly meaning I have to brake again. It's this constant use of the brakes, in this, and other scenarios that is putting me off the dsg. If you are someone that already uses your brakes a lot, and not your gears, for slowing down, then you will not notice any difference. Throughout my driving career on many bikes and cars I always used the gears more than the brakes for slowing down and this is why it is so noticeable, and irritating to me.

[bigjim73]

I have just ordered an SE 140 Yeti DSG 4X4.

I've never driven DSG before but was impressed during a test drive but now I've started thinking about how my driving style will be affected by it. My main concern is what effect it has on engine braking. My test drive was fairly short and all over level roads and so it didn't occur to me to ask about this.

Any comments from confirmed DSG drivers?

 

Fred

 

Have the DSG in my 170 Superb.

 

As noted above you can knock it down the gears by knocking it over to manual, Sport mode also does a better job of engine braking.

 

Alternatively (I've now done 67K in my Superb) you'll just use your brakes a bit more, this does not compromise the brakes too much as I'm still on original discs and just had 1st set of pads fitted at 60K service.

[Phil-E]

I have found the DSG ok for engine braking.

 

If you come of the gas nice and early it will start to slow and then change down.

 

You will get to know the change points at which is changes down.

 

The newer ones like yours will also has an inclination sensor and will change down when descending a hill.

 

Phil

[P6bJOHN]

I have a 1.2 105 dsg Roomster, I have had it since may 2011, it has been used normally, and with the seats out and loaded to the roof with kit. I have not encountered the 4k rpm down hill revving as described, ever. I would suggest your gearbox needs diagnostically looking at.

  I do not use sport mode as it seems to rev past the torque band and sound very impressive, whilst slowing down the rate of acceleration. I have had numerous automatics, and still have a Rover P6b in the garage with a Borg Warner 35 hooked up to a V8 engine. The DSG box is a fantastic bit of kit and, having been recently testing other makes of car and finding their auto's crude, I am going to order another Skoda soon.