Upgrading car speakers after collecting new car...

[amitanubha]

Thanks everyone with useful information and thoughts

I think decision is made for me now...

I want to go with a Pioneer SQ1000A or Sony XM-GS6DSP, and first try to adjust more of time alignment as well as EQ a bit 

Next step would be to change speakers but i am more inclined to keep them for now... as in my mind with the tuning they seems good enough

I have already done damping and it has made a big difference in terms of fullness of sound, so i assume they are decent enough speakers

 

Also i keep hearing a lot that even if you change speakers you dont get large changes unless either speakers were too bad or unless some dsp techniques are used

Now i am gonna check with my installer and see what he suggests. Lastly i think adding a sub and relieving mid woofer for more narrow band to play by adjusting active xovers in DSP mentioned above will also make the drivers play nicely, so then that's it (oof relief)

Lastly as we all know stock tweeter is having a 1st order cap and hence  a xover, but if i use DSP active xover how i m gonna control them together or make them play nicely ?

By adding just a dsp like pioneer do i need to still open and rip of door card or i can just do connections thru Amudsen back ? I would like to avoid ripping out door cards for now. another reason to avoid changing the stock speakers

 

Bret i dont see any DSP menu in my Amundsen, can you pls share your version of HW/FW if possible ? Mine is MY17 pre-FL

 

Regards,

-Amit

 

[brettikivi]

Hi,

there seems to be a little confusion here. 

I disagree on the idea that a speaker change can't make massive differences. A lot depends on relative improvements, and the concept that a speaker can't improve what it isn't already getting is correct. So a speaker change on its own is not going to move mountains. But swapping out and giving more power may well make a lot more difference.

Calling the capacitor on the tweeter a "Crossover" is a little rich, in my book: it's a protective cap, and stops the lower frequencies getting to the driver. Swapping it out for a larger one will simply shift the XO point, and as we know, this is a first order or 6dB / Octave XO. So when the previous point wsa 5Khz, you might shift it to 7kHz - but even then, where previously you were down 6dB at 2.5kHz, you've now allowed the larger driver to "take over" all the way up to 3.5kHz. This might mean it "sounds better" because it's more balanced, it might also mean that there's actually quite a hole in the frequency response - I don't know and I've not heard of any measurements. 

How your DSP will work is simple: it takes the signal from the head unit and manipulates it. The manipulated signal is sent to the amp in the DSP and then to the speakers.  Any changes you make - for example time alignment - will be applied. 
The issue with only having one pair of cables to the door is that you can then only have one audio signal coming in, which is then split to the drivers. If you wanted to set up the tweeters to have a different time alignment, you'd need another pair of amplifier channels and cables to do this. If there's a point or not, only you can say. This is the difference of an Active vs passive XO; an Active XO is before the amp, whereas a passive one is after it. "Active EQ" could mean either turning EQ on or applying EQ differently to different channels of a multi-channel system. 

Taking the card off and swapping to different drivers may give you more flexibility with an XO which may have +3, 0, -3dB positions for the tweeter; but still, if you're only running one cable into the door, only one signal for all drivers will be carried.
You should get an improvement with the DSP if EQ is applied well, it should help tame any harshness, but it's limited in terms of just what it can do if both tweeter and woofer are fed together. 

 - Bret

[amitanubha]

Bret i went to audio installer this weekend and i asked about Pioneer, seems it is a really nice plugnplay solution with no wire tappings etc.. including power, acc and ground taken from factory HU. In theory this sounds interesting, though he didn't seem to had plug n play wiring for Octavia yet, so he is gonna check with dealer

Rest all i agree about what you said above but this seems good for me to tame a bit of harshness and play a bit louder then currently i can play including playing treble a bit high to balance the sound.

Next step seems to be tapping into adding an external AMP and change speakers possibly with proper cables for tweeters and woofer, but later once warranty is close to expiring anyway....

Lastly i am also thinking experimenting with my wife's Vento(polo  basically)sold in India. It has only 4 speakers in 4 doors and i wants to add same DSP plus AMP and Speakers all from Pioneer, i did check something called TS-Z65CH model and seems nice but it does need an amp for sure. This way i can be sure if this gives a real good improvements with side benefit of possible using wifes car for my commute as well :-), still under warranty but close to 1 year left now...

Any comment on Pioneer TS-Z65CH speakers range/model 

 

Thanks and Regards,

-Amit

[amitanubha]

Oh and i forgot but i didn't find Vifa tweeter  model online, pls check 

And also if you can let me know FW model of Amundsen as i dont find any DSP menu 

[brettikivi]

this is the titanium tweeter: https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/hard-dome-tweeter/vifa-dq25sc16-04-1-titanium-dome-tweeter/

 

I will try to remember to look at the Amundsen tonight...

 

 - Bret

Edited 17 December, 2018 by brettikivi

[amitanubha]

Hello Bret

 

In the meantime i also studied documentation from Pioneer and seems it has an option to do sound calibration by running some test signals downloaded from Pioneer, and it uses that to adjust/inverse any EQ settings from OE HU and try to reconstruct signal again in DSP. Does this makes sense?

I know can't be done fully but this might de-EQ, obviosuly can't add anything if it was not there . This aspect worries me that even if i add extra sub, is there enough low freq output from HU or they filter low end ?

Isn't this how any Sound processor  and even Home HIFI calibration happens to basically measure and adjust filters based on positioning and reflections in home. In car case it is doing something similar based on speaker positions, acoustics of car and EQued signal from HU. This makes a technical sense  to some extent 

What do you think and any comments ? I am still waiting for my car wiring and seems the power and gnd are taken from back of HU using quadlock signals 

 

Thanks

-Amit

[amitanubha]

Hello Bret 

 

I think i sorted out current issue of harshness on tweeter and dsp by a simple way of using my Oneplus 6 phone and eq process, I think this is what you were also alluding when asking to use hifiberry +rapi and my Phone, is it correct ?

 

1. I downloaded first an equalizer app on google play store and installed it, this allows for some music apps to use that such as google play music and wynk(Indian store music app). What is important here is when i use my Android Auto connection and stream thru USB, i think it does using Analog on USB and i was able to apply in built EQ settings thru app. So i played and tried to lower high freq. and increase a bit of low freq and it sounded encouraging especially my tweeter harshness was under control on bells and sh/ch sounds

 

2.Then i bought a more specific music play app called Jet Audio HD player which has got 20 level of EQ settings and more. It plays flac and other hires files, so i copied most of my music to oneplus6 including ripped audio CD in flac/wav formats and did again same. Now i am using this app on Android Auto thru USB and plays my music using DSP/EQ settings and nicely balances my lows and highs

 

I am quite pleased with results and except time alignment on 4 channels of front and rear it allows to let me play nicely. For now i am relying on balance and fader functions on HU to set something for driver focus as crude way of time alignment and it is enjoyable

 

I am still waiting for Pioneer DSP plug n play wiring but this seems i might not need it

 

Hello " Z Klasee", i saw you are from Mumbai India and manage to get hold on Octavia specific wiring, can you pls point me to dealer/person from where i can source this. I might still put dedicated DSP esp for Auto TA features 

 

Now i need to just sort out lower bass/beats. Should i plan to go 3 way and add a mid on door card say around 3inch and use woofer for low freq. band or should i remain 2 way for now and install either 2 powered subwoofer under seat or a 10inch enclosure in boot side. Both involves some cutting/tampering wiring and connecting to battery terminals, but may be few months later i can decide (warranty issues again)

 

Any comments/suggestions are welcome

 

Regards and Happy New year wishes to all

 

Amit

 

[z klasse]

I got my wiring harness and installation done from Rammie

 

Address: A-B,, 58, Saki Vihar Rd, Ganesh Nagar, Marol, Andheri East, Mumbai, Maharashtra 400072
Phone: 098211 34304

 

What all you are doing is too much of a headache to get average results. Eventually when you go with the better speakers and DSP, the upgrade in the sound stage and overall control of EQ and TA is brilliant. 

 

Hope he can help you out. 

[amitanubha]

totally agree with you it is just a headache to avoid warranty issues and not open and rip things for now..,

Thanks for information i will contact him and see if he can help me out

 

One more thing , the Pioneer dsp is toally plugnplay right ? I mean even power and gnd etc.. ? And it does not introduce any sound hiss/power line issues 

Plus you haven't installed separate amplifier yet ?

 

[z klasse]

1 minute ago, amitanubha said:

totally agree with you it is just a headache to avoid warranty issues and not open and rip things for now..,

Thanks for information i will contact him and see if he can help me out

 

One more thing , the Pioneer dsp is toally plugnplay right ? I mean even power and gnd etc.. ? And it does not introduce any sound hiss/power line issues 

Plus you haven't installed separate amplifier yet ?

 

No hiss or any issue as such. Its not a direct plug and play. The direct fit harness has to be spliced (not the car one) and then fitted. There is no warranty issues in this as none of the wires of the original car are being spliced. See the thread where I have posted the pictures. They cannot void warranty for this as no wires have been spliced. 

[amitanubha]

ok i see but it takes power and gnd from HU wiring ? So once we open and take out HU and from back connector/wiring we can pretty much install this thing from there ? right 

[amitanubha]

do you have pic of wiring harness by any chance you took during install or any other pic of back of install ?

[z klasse]

No picture of the harness.. Its a direct plug and play but the wires have to be spliced and tapped into of the harness. You can speak to the number provided.

[amitanubha]

ok i did talk to him and sent my dashboard pics he is gonna send/confirm me soon

[amitanubha]

Hello Z klasse , i managed to get dap installed today(with some hint / help from Rammie on cabling but i found it in Bangalore and it is like an extension cable for qualdlock connector)

I didn't find time with my installer to fine tune and only install, it does show some improvements on vocals and harshness already ha...

 

I was wondering if you can share you sound processor settings ile as you suggested it can be shared, mostly for time alignment settings for centre imaging/staging

 

I wil find time only probably next week to of back tp installer hence checking/asking

 

Whoever you get some time do send me 

 

Thanks and i took some pics which i can post next week in case people interested

 

Regards

-Amit

[z klasse]

 

 

Hi

 

the file that creates the RTA etc is tuned by Rammie specifically for my set up and he has tuned the EQ as well after a lot of hard work. I would suggest you contact him and pay him his charges for it. It’s something that would be unfair to distribute for someone else’s hard work and efforts. Hope you understand. 

 

All the best. 

Edited 5 January, 2019 by z klasse

[amitanubha]

Hi

 

Not sure i fully agree and not looking for a such a crisp measurements. I anyway paid to my installer for tuning and i just wesanted to get a feel before next week. If you don't mind you can send me just the pic/snapshot of few screens or i will do it myself if i get time

BTW can you tell me how and which tools did he use, was it REW , since this processor is suppose to do based on smartphone, so how did he measure using laptop ?

I remember my yamaha has a software which does it quickly, basically it is nothing but measurement of distance from centre position of your seat and set delay in terms of db.

 

Regards'

-Amit

[amitanubha]

Sorry just one clarification i am asking time alignment and not EQ curve ,. I might have mixed up terms 

[JohnnyType2]

you don't need to wire tap or splice anything. you need the correct harness this is what i've done. Then you can always put it back to stock if you want.

 

i've documented the harness required to piggyback the HU and connect to the DSP/high level to low level converter

don't cut splice into any of the harnesses you will regret it.













you need the speaker (high level) outputs from the HU and its easy to do with this harness

 

[amitanubha]

Hello

 

No we did the touch or splice any original wiring. It was a full 52 pin quadlock male female extension. Then we just connected wires to DSP . It is just that we didn't have right sockets so had to join them. I can always go back and take out this extension harness and reconnect back original socket harness and take out DSP from equation.

 

 

[amitanubha]

And connector on pioneer dap side is anyway different from iso plugs

[JohnnyType2]

is it a new dsp? it should have the correct connector

[amitanubha]

This is Pioneer dev-s100a same DSP made mostly with plugn play wiring for common cars in India/Asia which is Toyotas,Hondas but not available with quad lock wiring in India for VW/Skoda

[amitanubha]

Hello Everyone

 

Just a minor update, i did some tuning on my own using crude spl meter, RTA app and time alignment (using Android and iPhone) and i already feel the vocals are getting narrow to a space, not fully pointed yet. Plus this is still passive crossover for tweeter so getting them all 4 talk together for vocals might be tricky

I am sold on having a DSP in car and it does makes a difference. But why others are so costly just for DSP any idea ?  

Now i am itching to first put subwoofer, my installer suggest not to go for sealed underseat subwoofer and he recommends a good 12" sub in boot to make a real difference. He is suggesting he can customize it in boot left cavity, but i am thinking maybe a premade 12" sub like Pioneer TS-WX300A available in India is bet bet in terms of specs. Or more costly option like rockford fosgate punch 300-12 or jbl  gt basspro 12. Please suggest if anyone has any opinion, experience

One more thing until now my changes are hidden to company,but if i add a subwoofer which is more viisbly in trunk, do i still expect some issues with warranty claims if any comes up. Especially worried about big ticket items on TSI like Gearbox, or other sensors etc.., Aren't the electricals and sensor network divided inside car from entertainment and other important functions ? So putting some extra load and wiring on Battery will it affect really warranty claims ?

This is again a grey area and any help,suggestion previous issues are really welcome

 

With Regards

-Amit

[JohnnyType2]

you need a wave form multi meter, its an cheap way to tune i bought this... and its excellent... waveform and bar chart so you can adjust gains and crossovers, £45 posted





I have a 10" sundown sub in a pre-built enclosure in the boot. A sub would not affect your warranty in terms of engine and running gear? why would it. A 12" encloser would have to either protrude out of the side or free stand due to the volume required >0.6 cubic feet for most 12s. the box in the image below is 0.5 cubic feet and sits flush. Just perfect for a 10"

 

Edited 8 January, 2019 by JohnnyType2