Head work

[faboka vrs]

So the bkd 16v head bolts onto the ASZ block and you'll need to bore the block to fit the bkd Pistons. Then play with the cambelt/pulley setup.

Kind of makes more sense to do this as the stock 16v head and cam flows better then a ported 8v head with high lift cam.

If only I had the time :(

[coskev]

So the bkd 16v head bolts onto the ASZ block and you'll need to bore the block to fit the bkd Pistons. Then play with the cambelt/pulley setup.

Kind of makes more sense to do this as the stock 16v head and cam flows better then a ported 8v head with high lift cam.

If only I had the time :(

So that's been done?

[TeflonTom]

hi folks, I only stumbled across this topic because it interests me, but you guys need to keep a lid on it and keep it civil please, or the man will taketh away.

my 2 cents, head work in probably a waste of money at the sort of road tune level you guys are working at, mirror polishing is a waste of time on petrol engines, but I don't have so much experience of doing this on diesels, which probably tells you why... Playing with cam timing is pointless on diesels for a few very good reasons. Messing about putting a 16v lid on an 8v bottom is plain crazy when you could just put the whole thing in there and be done with it. High lift cams aren't worth the bother as opening the valve more than 25% of its head diameter is a waste and all it does it accelerate valve train wear. Matching ports to manifold can loose you power because there's nothing to discourage reversion in the intake tract, but benefits can be had by smoothing out sharp edges particularly around the short side and around the valve bowl area, I reckon the actual intake manifold itself is more or a restriction than anything else. But certainly hogging out ports to the maximum is not the answer, that's more the preferred reserve of clueless boy racers, in fact some head tuners actually add material ( filler, weld, inserts etc) to ports to make them flow better, some Porsches (cosworth design) actually have a ceramic sleeve pressed into the port to increase gas speed which is a direct admission they got it wrong to start with.

I'd be intereted to see what actual documented results with flow bench proof can be offered up relating to this subject, we could argue about it till the cows come home in favour of loss or gain, but it's numbers that will proove this.

[faboka vrs]

So that's been done?

I wish

[faboka vrs]

my 2 cents, head work in probably a waste of money at the sort of road tune level you guys are working at.

Theirs talk that above 270bhp headwork is required. Personally I think the gtb2260vk is too small to go past this and hit the magic 300bhp. Unless your willing to go wild with the boost.

[SKYHAWK]

I got no headwork atm and am 279bhp time will tell when I get my head back

[coskev]

Does a 2ltr 16v engine fit straight into a Fabia then?

hi folks, I only stumbled across this topic because it interests me, but you guys need to keep a lid on it and keep it civil please, or the man will taketh away.

I can't seem to find a 'yawning' smiley, any chance we can have one enabled please?

[alex_e3]

Banter aside, this is turning into a very interesting thread!

I'm now trawling the net looking at the possibility of this conversion as opposed to expensive head work and cam on my current setup.

[faboka vrs]

[devonutopia]

Will the stock PD130 engine management run a 16v head though?  Anything in the PD system (eg cam sensor?) which might throw a wobbly trying to run a 16v head?

[joelk2010]

Is it possible, yes it is, but requires a fair amount of work.

 

This was going to be the next step for me if the engine gave way. Just couldn't justify the costs while things were working lol.

[alex_e3]

I'm having serious think of building one up on the side.

Surely as long as the injectors are readable by the ECU then that is the only thing that could throw a wobbler other than the cam sensor? As isn't the BKD head just a means to draw more air into the cylinders more efficiently.... So long as everything mechanical works together.

[joelk2010]

I cant comment any further as don't know the technical ins and outs :(

 

Most here know where the car was tuned and they are the ones who offered it as an "upgrade". But as before its not as easy as it sounds on paper by all accounts.

[faboka vrs]

One of the reasons for using the original block is because the bkd crank sensor isn't compatible.

People have done this and still using the edc15 ecu. Be good to get a spare head and see if the camshaft sensor is interchangeable. As long as you stick with the pd140 and not pd170 then the injectors "should" be fine.

[TeflonTom]

One of the reasons for using the original block is because the bkd crank sensor isn't compatible..

Is the trigger pattern different then? Most vag stuff uses a standard bosch 60-2 trigger with 85 degrees btdc static timing. There must be something from the vag parts bin that would work.. Or even a retro fit bolted to the aux belt pulley, I refuse to believe it can't be done!

[faboka vrs]

, I refuse to believe it can't be done!

That's why I always like your threads

My logic for using the ASZ block would be so all the engine mounting point are kept the same.

[TeflonTom]

That's why I always like your threads

My logic for using the ASZ block would be so all the engine mounting point are kept the same.

yeah I totally understand the merits of using an original unit from a car, but the concept of opening up an engine block and spending top money to have it bore to take bigger Pistons is crazy, whereas an entire 2.0 engine could be had for relatively small cost from a breaker, the metal parts that bolt it to the car are fairly easily to assemble or adapt from existing parts cut and joined together, but if it's solely down to the fact the crank sensor is incompatible then these club Tdi guys are not thinking outside the box enough, even if you had to have a new trigger disc laser cut and pushed onto the existing crank, it's only a transision fit on the rear crank rear nose, I'd even wager it's the same size mounting across both engine types, some plucky individual could even produce a kit of parts needed to do this conversion.

if somebody wants to give me the car and the engine, I'd make it fit and work, certainly won't be messing around changing Pistons round that's for sure.

[vindaloo]

Will the stock PD130 engine management run a 16v head though? Anything in the PD system (eg cam sensor?) which might throw a won boy trying to run a 16v head?

Has been discussed at length on TDiclub.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=313177&page=3

J.

[alex_e3]

What about the gearbox side of things? Interchangeable?

[alex_e3]

As above with regards to dropping in an engine... if you can then do it.

 

However, IF you're going to re-build with stronger rods anyway, I don't see it as a disadvantage to get the 1.9 engine bored out and new pistons fitted. You'll have a good strong engine that will last which shouldn't be any weaker than the 2 litre in reality and will have the necessary sensors already attached, no problems with box mating (if there are any anyway!) etc...

 

I've read that thread above that Vindaloo has referenced, and there isn't a straight up answer of whether you can run the PD140 injectors on a standard ASZ ECU. No mention of BLT either, which uses a different ECU as far as I'm aware....

 

If I were to go down this route, then I'd be looking at going the whole hog including a 2566 type turbo setup.

 

 

More research needed!!

[Southy]

Alex if you want I have a spare engine which we can dummy build everything on. Infact should this be a means to more power then I could potentially be game for going down this route myself, I was looking at H beam rods the other week.

I really wanna have a read through a few of the links posted but with only access to the internet via my phone it's a tad hard to read into it all in full depth.

[alex_e3]

Oooo interesting  Cheers mate!

 

I'm giving this some serious thought. Been chatting to John.

 

I was trying to think of a way to test the PD140 BKD injectors in my current engine just to make sure that they 100% work with my current ECU. They are a different shape though unfortunately so they don't fit. What I don't want to do is commit to it, build an engine and find that the damn thing will never work!

 

Reading about though, I'd be more inclined to mate the ASZ and BKD engines together. You're gonna have fabrication work to do with mountings, possibly gearbox casing issues, and still the issue of management if you swapped the whole engine. As I'd be rebuilding fully anyway, seems a good idea to keep the original block.

 

Another issue I'm thinking of is bulkhead room. Is there enough? From looking at the pictures, the ports don't really jut out any further than the block. The head gets wider past the ports. So hopefully it shouldn't be an issue. Plus there's other motors of similar platform running this engine no problem, including that tiny Arosa!

 

 

 

Still researching anyway!!

[faboka vrs]

Both ASZ/BLT use the same Bosch edc15p ecu. But different revisions.

The mk5 golf platform use Bosch edc16 ecus for the pd's both 8v and 16v. I've mapped many edc16's with arl injectors in the 1.9 8v engines. So can't see the pd140 injectors been an issue the other way. The pd170's won't work.

[hutchysrs50]

Enough talk, more action. Someone spend some money and see if it works

[sepulchrave]

I'd be surprised if there any significant differences between the block castings, the stroke is identical which suggests the same crank and rods, the bore is 1.5mm bigger, bore centres should be the same, engine mount bosses may have been moved to allow for the different cambelt run but I'd be surprised quite honestly.

 

Frankly it should drop straight in with a hybridised O/S engine mount, it should mate straight to the gearbox as well although you'll probably want a different clutch and flywheel, you may need a custom dogbone to cant the engine forward slightly since the head is a fair bit wider.

 

Since both engines use Bosch PCM I would imagine a full remap of the VRS ECU using standard BKD fuelling values should allow it to run just fine.

 

You'll have issues with packaging like exhaust and maybe turbo position but that's straightforward fabrication.

 

It'll be a lot less hassle than rebuilding the engine to throw the whole lump in and just make it work, you can mod from there once the installation is tried and tested.

 

I'm toying with putting an ABF into a 2.0 MPI using throttle bodies, it's more challenging because the ABF uses a dizzy and has no cam position sensor, but I'd junk the dizzy and use the MPI coil pack and take a modified signal from the crank sensor instead of worrying about the cam sensor. I'm 95% certain it's a goer since the blocks are basically the same.