THIEVING SCUM

[spenford]

Just had car broken into, can't see any damage to windows or locks, police say they probably used some sort of jammer to unlock doors as every door and the boot were open and I know for definate I locked them.How the hell are we supposed to protect our property if the scum can get in anytime they want, just glad they didn't drive off with it....****ed off as well cos I had just washed and waxed it and it was looking good, but now will have to disinfect it to get rid of the scent of thieving scum.

[Paulbrown]

Wtf?!?

How's that work then?!?

How are we meant to look after our belongings if now people can just come along and jammer open then car ?!?

Is this a new high tech way to get it?

I am lucky as my cars behind a gate down a drive off the road

[webweasel]

Sorry to hear that mate. Out of interest, when you locked it, did you see the car lights flash or did you just press the fob whilst walking away? The most common scam is to flood the frequency to prevent the car from locking: http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/hi-tech-car-thieves-hit-streets-8099557

Unfortunately, the problem is going to get worse. I was reading yesterday about a more sophisticated jammer which can lock and unlock cars: http://arstechnica.co.uk/security/2015/08/meet-rolljam-the-30-device-that-jimmies-car-and-garage-doors/

[webweasel]

By the way, if you have KESSY I recommed you get a Faraday cage for your key. eg: http://www.fobguard.com

[V6Jules]

Sorry to hear this. My car is still waiting for new locks as we were burgled just for the car keys a few weeks back. Makes my blood boil the scum thinking they can just take your property which you work hard for.

[mannyo]

If you have Kessy, how far were the keys from the car. If the keys are close enough then the car can be opened by almost anybody without the need for any electronic gizmos.

 

I have to make sure the keys for my Audi are at least 6 feet from the car, otherwise the key is still within range of the doors. Not sure on the Octy3, maybe worth trying an experiment with leaving the keys indoors and see if the car opens.

[te@lc]

Sorry for that. Get a decent alarm.

Rule of a thumb for me: Check if the door is locked manually when leaving a car in very urban area.

 

BTW sometimes I'm sorry that we don't live in USA, to have a decent shotgun at my porch for trespass issues

 

Don't put to much blame on Yourself cause if someone is determined to break into/steal car, nothing helps...

[KenONeill]

If you have Kessy, how far were the keys from the car. If the keys are close enough then the car can be opened by almost anybody without the need for any electronic gizmos.

 

I have to make sure the keys for my Audi are at least 6 feet from the car, otherwise the key is still within range of the doors. Not sure on the Octy3, maybe worth trying an experiment with leaving the keys indoors and see if the car opens.

6 feet!!? The VAG remotes used to be capable of more like 100 feet.

[pipsyp]

6 feet!!? The VAG remotes used to be capable of more like 100 feet.

KESSY should only work with the key in reasonable proximity to the car...i.e just a foot or two....enough really for you to be able to open the car with the key on you.

Can you disable KESSY in the infotainment if you dont want the comfort lock/unlock?

[te@lc]

6 feet!!? The VAG remotes used to be capable of more like 100 feet.

 

Only? Just sold Audi's remote worked over 700m (~2300feet) when there was clear line of sight. Pure, not keyless.

Porsche keyless entry works only when Your're very, very, very close to car. I would say insite 1m, but not sure cause never took care about it really.

[Warkman]

It's an on going war, the manufacturers devise new security systems, then the scrotes devise a way round and so it goes on.

It's interesting that car drive is nearly non existent in Singapore and also in Jaoan, where morals are still uppermost in society

[KenONeill]

Only? Just sold Audi's remote worked over 700m (~2300feet) when there was clear line of sight. Pure, not keyless.

Porsche keyless entry works only when Your're very, very, very close to car. I would say insite 1m, but not sure cause never took care about it really.

My 100 feet was "from inside a building to car not in sight", which I think goes to the OP's original issue.

[flyingpigvrs]

My 100 feet was "from inside a building to car not in sight", which I think goes to the OP's original issue.

Was that a keyless fob or the traditional remote key?

Did you leave the keyless fob in the house and able to unlock the car or have you just pressed the unlock button on your key from inside the house and it's unlocked?

Traditional keys do have a long range but obviously someone needs to physically press the button to unlock it.

[flybynite]

I would be interested to know if the OP's car had KESSY

 

Having had Kessy or similar keyless on a few cars I can say once you have had it, it is difficult to do without. I would spec it again. There are a lot of scare stories around about what is possible but I think only a fraction are done in practice

 

You don't need to put the key fob in a faraday cage but you do need to be careful where you leave it. The keyless keyfob is designed only to work if you are near the relevant door. I can't open the drivers door if my keys are in the boot. I would say it is unlikely that a key in the house could reach the car but it is possible.

 

What is actively being used is a signal extender. One toe-rag stands by your car with one half of this kit, the other hunts around the outside of the house for a signal. If you have left the keys near a door/window or outside wall they may get a signal to open the car.

 

I have my doubts they can start the car as I think they still need the immobiliser chip in the key, which is why in many cases the car is still there. They do however then have the ability to access the OBD port to re-code a key or roll the car further away to tow it. I guess the last bit is beyond most. There are a lot of these devices around.

 

In some ways keyless is better than push button because you are broadcasting over a shorter range. The old scanners of the 90s that recorded the unlock code and used them later do not work because each button push is a rolling "random" code/ frequency. I think it is a long time before that signal could be cracked but it is very exposed with such a long transmission range.

 

That is why you get the "millennium" thefts, it is easier to just nick the keys, sometimes with you in the car, which is what they do when they cannot get it any other way.Trouble with that is that is when people tend to get hurt.

 

If they want your car they will probably get it, it is less about making it hard, just harder than moving on to the next one. Obviously the rarer your car the less likely they are to do that.

 

I tend to feed my dog in the morning so he is peckish at night. Anyone snooping round my place at night with a box of tricks will save me a bowl of feed in the morning 

Edited 10 August, 2015 by flybynite

[M12MKD]

This is why I didn't opt for the KESSY, I like the idea, it was cool in the PHEV that I test drove, but I just do not trust it that much.

 

To the OP I feel for you but silver lining and all at least they didn't wreak/damage your car to get in to it.

[neiln]

Oh dear, sorry to hear this.

[Orville]

Ocassionally I return to my car to find all of the windows are partially/fully down. I guess the keyfob (non-KESSY) gets depressed accidentally whilst within my pocket. The standard keyfob works from a stupidly long distance meaning that any inadvertant press opens up the car without the owner knowing. I fnd this much more likely than common criminals using high-tech intercepters. VAG keyfobs use rolling-codes with billions of combinations making them extremely difficult to crack. Even if someone "grabs" you last keypress, it cannot be used to unlock the car again.

Edited 10 August, 2015 by Orville

[Mikebham]

It looks like the rolling code can be hacked too now:

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3187299/The-30-universal-remote-cars-hackers-access-vehicle-open-garage-door.html

[webweasel]

It looks like the rolling code can be hacked too now:

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3187299/The-30-universal-remote-cars-hackers-access-vehicle-open-garage-door.html

The RollJam proof-of-concept jams the first keypress and also stores it. When you realise the car didn't lock and press the button again, it jams and stores the second code whilst releasing the first code to the car. The car is now locked but the jammer has a legitimate ulnock code up it's sleeve. So it isn't a hack of the code itself, more of a sleight-of-hand trick. I think the manufacturers will block it fairly quickly as it just requires the codes to time-out after a few seconds.

[skd12]

I read that this morning.

You try to lock your car.

They simultaneously jam the car from receiving the code while capturing the code for themselves.

Your car doesn't lock.

You press the keyfob again.

They jam the signal again, capturing the new code and this time transmit the first code to your car.

Your car has received the correct code so locks and the thieves now know the next code that the car is expecting so can unlock it when you walk away.

It sounds like a lot of steps but this newly demonstrated device would simplify this process.

Previously thieves would capture the first code and rely on you not checking whether your car was actually locked.

The signal booster for kessy was something I was previously aware of so have always kept my keys in the middle of the house.

(My Renault Koleos isn't expensive so little chance of thieves breaking in and stealing/demanding the keys)

[Orville]

"It intercepts the 'rolling codes', one-time authentication codes exchanged by car and key that change with each lock and unlock. 

Because there's no timeout on the codes, RollJam can intercept them to ensure they never reach the car."

 

There may be no timeout for the codes, but they are one-time use only. The code from a keyfob can be "grabbed" and "blocked", but as soon as the owner opens the door (2nd, 3rd, 4th press..), the older intercepted code will become invalid. This intercept/block method can only work if the owner tries to open the car, fails, and then immediately gives up / walks away. Any subsequent legitimate unlocking will invalidate the intercepted code. I imagine that it is also very difficult to block transmissions within open areas from practical (for thieves) distances.

 

The next code cannot be predicted unless the the key-car encryption is hacked (practically impossible). All the grabber does is "copy" the encrypted code, block it transmission to the car, and then attempt to resend it if the owner leaves without opeing the doors.

Edited 10 August, 2015 by Orville

[flybynite]

As I said I think that a lot that may be possible in theory doesn't make it into practice. AFAIK the rolling codes have worked like RSA codes for a while now where you cannot use the code before or after the correct one.

 

One of the hackers claimed he could hack the code turning a lock into an unlock otherwise he would specifically have to record an unlock code to sequence them. Sequencing lock codes would not help them get into a car

 

If you use kessy like i do and just hit the button on the door to lock it, there is no transmission to intercept. One of the reasons I like it is the fob stays in one place, I never have to touch it, also less likely to be pressed by mistake.  

 

Kessy works on short range transmission (think bluetooth not wifi) 

[Orville]

Anyone who really wants to steal a car or it's contents will do so. There are an endless supply of low-life's willing to smash windows, break-in to properties, and mug people for their keys. Stealing a car without the key is actually very difficult, and "intercepting the code" may be preferable for many victims, rather than arriving to find broken windows, barrels and the contents missing.

 

Ultimately, most thieves are opportunists and will take the quick/easy route. Most would rather smash-and-grab, than spend time building electronic gadgets and waiting patiently to clone a keyfob-code. Leave an expensive item inside a car and the window will get smashed FAR more ofther than your keyfob will be cloned.

 

At the end of the day it is just a car, and valuable contents should not be kept inside one. I would be more concerned about KESSY being cloned than a keyfob (which actually requires a key to drive off with the car).

 

Apparently most drivers will have their car broken in to atleast once during their lifetime. I almost had a stereo stolen from an old XR2, but heard a smash late at night and went to investigate. The thief run off empty handed but it still cost me for a new window and chip repairs where the stattered glass impacted the paintwork. I also had my beloved 3dr Cossy stolen back in the early 90's when doors could be opened and gnitions started with a screwdriver. Nowadays car theft's are very rare withoit first acquiring the keys.

 

Sleep with your car keys next to you and never leave valuables within the car. Park where it is well-lit and where possible near a CCTV camera. Nothing will prevent a determined thief, but discourage them and they will look for easier pickings.

Edited 10 August, 2015 by Orville

[M12MKD]

Lots of interesting information in this post!

 

Like he said ^^^ if someone wants what you have, they will take it.

[spenford]

I don't have kessy so a lot of this doesn't apply, all I know is I locked the car as usual, I always wait for wing mirrors to close before walking off.Next thing I know is I hear one of the scum going through a neighbours car when I went outside all my doors were unlocked and everything was strewn around car, and three bags were missing.