Out sells the Veyron as well , must be better than that also

They sell more Fiestas than anything else in this country , I wouldnt want one of those either

Fact remains , sales have dropped , residuals are dropping

Poor argument, it outsells the petrol when it costs more.

Not true. Torque is multiplied by the gear ratio so even at the top of the Rev range you have more torque than in the gear above.

 

But Torque is of no consequence unless you have load for it to work against. The only way to put load on an engine (at any given throttle) is to select a higher gear. To get the most effect you need to do that for the peak torque section of the rev range, then as load lessens with the speed, load it up more with the next gear.

 

Staying in the gear into high revs, may give you more available torque than the next gear but with less to work against it your effective torque will be less and will not accelerate you as hard unless you have a car where the power takes over. But we are talking about turbo diesels with more torque than BHP and getting them to move.

 

What you say is true but you cannot take that fact in isolation

I agree I think the TDI DSG 4x4 version s v compelling. If I were ever in the market to buy a new family estate car probably be the first thing Id look at.

Just a shame the Octavias residuals are so woeful...having just spec'd one up to about the same spec as my stock Golf GTD it came out at £31k....its probably still alot of car for that money but for me its still an exorbitant amount of money for a Skoda Octavia IMHO....particularly given it wont be worth half that after about 18 months.

Mate, what did you add to get 31k?? I just ordered mine for 29k with the following: Columbus sat nav 8inch screen with smart link, leather with heated seats, black pack, sunset glass, DSG and AWD; none of that comes in a stock GTD.  The VRS now comes standard with Amunsden Sat Nav, again not standard in a golf.  0% finance and a £1000 deposit contribution.  So when you add it all up the Skoda wins, as you will pay a lot more over the period of finance, unless of course you paid cash?? 

Back to the OP's question, a couple of people did suggest it earlier (before the handbags started flying :p) I will qualify this by saying this is from my experience of other diesels and I have not driven a vRS TDI (before any handbags come my way)

 

Diesels tend to be better in higher gears than you would be in a petrol to make use of the torque, so the gearchanges are critical.

 

If you rev it to the redline in 1st you will be getting nowhere for half of that as you are past peak torque. If you then change gear it puts you at the end (if not past) the peak torque again. Keep revving it like a petrol and it will not get the best out of the engine as you will miss the torque band in each gear.

 

If you rev it to the point the torque drops off (about 2700 -3000 in most) then change, your revs will end up back at the start of peak torque and have another dose of torque push. Change at the same point again and you are in third at the start of peak torque and that will get you places.

 

It feels really alien to change early, like "short shifting" in a petrol and a petrol (corsa?) revved to the redilne may momentarily get ahead but very quickly the car will be in a higher gear in the middle of the torque curve and will be going as well as it can.

 

If adrenalin gets the better of you and you hit the redline in 1st - try straight into 3rd?

 

torque.jpg

 

This torque curve is for the Ford (PSA) 2.0 TDCi (which I'm a big fan of) but the same principle applies, get it between the red lines and try to keep it there.

 

Get to top of torque curve in top gear and then a petrol will then have the edge but that is normally way past the legal limit for most diesels and explains why they can be very effective on the road but in a straight run to top speed would lose out to an equivalent petrol. it also explains why diesel and DSG don't always get along for some people

 

I am a big fan of common-rail diesels, but I now drive a petrol - Horses for Courses

 

In fact, there's no fundamental difference between diesel and petrol there.

The best acceleration is achieved when the most power is transmitted to the wheels.

The power from the engine is transmitted fully (minus some friction loss ~15%) through the transmission.

So the most power is given to the wheels when the engine delivers its most power.

That means the most efficient, for pure performances, is to remain in the rev range were power is at its max,

shifting gear at upper range where you're still at max power, and the next gear will still bring you at

the lower range of this max power zone.

Meaning for a RS TDI, shifting between 4000 and 4500 rpm and recovering the higher gear around 3000 or 3500rpm.

Just see:

The exercise is often easier with a petrol as the max power plateau is wider.

But in any case everything happens above the revs of max torque. (3000rpm on a RS TDI) 

Edited 30 November, 201510 yr by JPH0091

If it is possible to turn that racket off when in the car as is possible on the video you are onto a winner.

The best acceleration is achieved when the most power is transmitted to the wheels.

The power from the engine is transmitted fully (minus some friction loss ~15%) through the transmission.

That means the most power is given to the wheels when the engine delivers its most power.

That means the most efficient, for pure performances, is to remain in the rev range were power is at its max,

Again not really true.

Torque is what accelerates you not power. Torque is multiplied by the gear ratio so you will accelerate harder in the lowest gear possible.

If you have 2 cars with equal torque and same gearbox but one car can rev longer it means it can stay in the lower gear (higher ratio) longer meaning better acceleration.

Because it revs longer it has more power.

Power in bhp = torque in lbft × revs ÷ 5252.

Again not really true.

Torque is what accelerates you not power. Torque is multiplied by the gear ratio so you will accelerate harder in the lowest gear possible.

If you have 2 cars with equal torque and same gearbox but one car can rev longer it means it can stay in the lower gear (higher ratio) longer meaning better acceleration.

Because it revs longer it has more power.

Power in bhp = torque in lbft × revs ÷ 5252.

 

For the same power, you'll get exactely the same torque at wheel, say at 100km/h, around 1200Nm, but the engine torque may either be 250Nm or 380Nm.

 

The torque that acceleratse you is the torque at wheel which is as much depending on the gear ratio than on the engine torque.

Same acceleration can be achieved either with short gear and low engine torque, or with long gear and high engine torque. However, in both cases, the engine power will be the same.

That is very easy to prove or disprove with one vehicle. (or 2 or 3 cars.)

Take a car with a DSG,  a 7 speed one.

Try in 'D' with the 7speed Box car,  then try again in 'S' where it revs more and has 6 gears. (Holding Gear Longer)

 

Or do it in the 6 Speed DSG in 'D',  then again in 'S',   see if acceleration in 'S' is better than in 'D' with a petrol car, 

and try also with a diesel engine car.

 

PS

The New 2015 VW Polo GTI 1.8 TSI 192ps has been given 320Nm when it has a Manual Gearbox, 

and VW limited it to 250Nm with the DSG.

Surprisingly they are said to have the same 0-62 mph,

but then someone needs to actually time them side by side, because VW have been known to telly porky pies.

The DSG fitted car will give the same figures pretty constantly without all this sitting revving the nuts of the car before setting off.

Edited 30 November, 201510 yr by GoneOffskiroottoot

Hi All,

About 3 years ago I owned a cracking Octavia VRS DSG (petrol), and had the Mk1 with a manual box before that, loved both cars. Value for money, sporty, bags of room and very well made; the Octavia is a great car in its own right, diesel or petrol. Along came the winter and any spirited acceleration from the lights in the wet caused the wheels to spin like a Catherine Wheel on bonfire night, and judder away from the lights; not good. Changed the tyres to some Uniroyal Rainsport 2's and that made a difference, stopped it spinning all the time, but still a pain when trying to get off quickly. This obviously affects all FWD cars with a bit power going through those front wheels

Frustrating enough for me to trade in and get a VW Golf R AWD, stage one remap with 310bhp, which by the way will not spin on full throttle off the line at the lights: awesome. AWD is the way ahead if you can afford it. So when I found out the VRS now comes with AWD, I went and ordered one. Yes its diesel, and slower than my Golf, but I know it will get away from the lights swiftly come rain or shine, and not bog down or start wheel spinning and juddering like a kangaroo on speed.

DSG and AWD are for me the best combination, I know this is not everyone's cup of tea for lots of reasons, but they really make a difference to the drive when you get used to them. You won't be spinning any wheels, and the car will pull away with minimum fuss every time, and faster than any standard van out there.

Can't wait to get the VRS 4X4 and will let you all know what its like in the New Year, expecting delivery early February. Will be straight onto DTUK and get a Stage 2 tuning box to increase the BHP to 240 and the torque to 500NM; now that's pretty damn good, and the AWD will handle the power just fine and kick some ass on many a petrol hot hatch; and I won't care about any trim level jibes. Have a good night guys :-)

This ^ I want one of these with the 240bhp. Sounds awesome. Enjoy!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Mate, what did you add to get 31k?? I just ordered mine for 29k with the following: Columbus sat nav 8inch screen with smart link, leather with heated seats, black pack, sunset glass, DSG and AWD; none of that comes in a stock GTD. The VRS now comes standard with Amunsden Sat Nav, again not standard in a golf. 0% finance and a £1000 deposit contribution. So when you add it all up the Skoda wins, as you will pay a lot more over the period of finance, unless of course you paid cash??

My GTD came with Amundsen Nav equivalent with WiFi, sunset glass, heated seats, heated washers, keyless, front and rear sensors, ACC/front assist and a spare wheel as standard. That is all standard kit on a GTD now. The Amundsen is now standard but none of the rest is.

Admittedly my Golf doesnt have DSG but I didnt want it, I wouldnt choose to have it on a vRS 4x4 other for the fact its enforced.

I didnt buy my Golf...it was a company car....just rather making the point the vRS at 31k with there or there abouts the same spec as a stock GTD doesnt make it a cheap car...note not terrible value for money.

Finance packages are nice granted but it wont be worth 3 pence not too far into the agreement so be prepared to get locked into the finance package if you dont put a few K down as a deposit....which is defeatest on a PCP. I speak from experience as my privately owned from new 2014 150 TDI Elegance estate is worth less than 12k and I owe about 15.5k on it care of the low deposit and 0% finance.

Golf finance is pants granted, its residuals whilst not wonderful are probably quite a bit better than the Octavias so get a good deal on one you could well see a lower TCO on a GTD.

You can negotiate a 10% discount on one and still take finance too so makes it s little less pricey.

Edited 30 November, 201510 yr by pipsypreturns

Sorry OT.

pipsyprereturns,

could you maybe reply please in the New 3rd Generation Fabia section on the Prototype Fabia vRS you drove at the Skoda factory, 

was it fitted with a 1.8TSI engine?

Edited 30 November, 201510 yr by GoneOffskiroottoot

For the same power, you'll get exactely the same torque at wheel, say at 100km/h, around 1200Nm, but the engine torque may either be 250Nm or 380Nm.

The torque that acceleratse you is the torque at wheel which is as much depending on the gear ratio than on the engine torque.

Same acceleration can be achieved either with short gear and low engine torque, or with long gear and high engine torque. However, in both cases, the engine power will be the same.

Engine power is (as I said earlier ) torque multiplied by revs divided by 5252.

So how can differing engine torque have the same power?

Engine power has nothing to do with gears.

Engine power is (as I said earlier ) torque multiplied by revs divided by 5252.

So how can differing engine torque have the same power?

Engine power has nothing to do with gears.

"Engine power is (as I said earlier ) torque multiplied by revs divided by 5252".

You have to understand what this relation means.

Basically, it means P = T w

P is power.

T is torque

w is angular speed.

Let's take the RS TDI engine.

at w = 1500 rpm, the torque is 350Nm, the power around  60 kW; P/T/w= 0.11

at w = 2500 rpm, the torque is 380Nm, the power around 100 kW: P/T/w= 0.11

at w = 4000 rpm, the torque is 320Nm, the power around 135 kW; P/T/w= 0.11

That only means that at engine side, P/T/w is a constant.

This engine has the same power between 3500 and 4000 rpm.

At 3500 rpm, its torque is close to 365 Nm. At 4000 rpm, it is down to 320 Nm.

You have the same kind of relation at the wheel side.

p = t W.

This time, W is the angular speed of the wheel, directly linked to the car speed and the wheel radius.

p is the power from the engine transmitted to the wheel.

As the energy is kept in a system, the power at wheel is the same as the engine power. p = P

(in fact, as mentioned previously, it is a bit reduced due to friction. Say p = 0.85 P)

Assuming max load, P is the engine max power.

Then

- the wheel angular speed equals the engine angular speed (rpm) devided by the transmission ratio.

- the wheel torque equals the engine torque (at this rpm) multiplied by the transmission ratio.

Bottomline, the max torque applicable to the wheel (at max load) is in direct relationship with the engine max Power.

There is no direct relationship between the max torque at wheel and the engine max torque.

In order to apply the max torque at wheel (and so the max acceleration to the car), you need to run your engine in its range of max power (with suitable gear).

This is always above the peak engine torque revs.

And the peak engine torque alone, is usually no indication of an actual car performance.

Edited 30 November, 201510 yr by JPH0091

"Engine power is (as I said earlier ) torque multiplied by revs divided by 5252".

You have to understand what this relation means.

Basically, it means P = T w

P is power.

T is torque

w is angular speed.

Let's take the RS TDI engine.

at w = 1500 rpm, the torque is 350Nm, the power around 60 kW; P/T/w= 0.11

at w = 2500 rpm, the torque is 380Nm, the power around 100 kW: P/T/w= 0.11

at w = 4000 rpm, the torque is 320Nm, the power around 135 kW; P/T/w= 0.11

That only means that at engine side, P/T/w is a constant.

This engine has the same power between 3500 and 4000 rpm.

At 3500 rpm, its torque is close to 365 Nm. At 4000 rpm, it is down to 320 Nm.

You have the same kind of relation at the wheel side.

p = t W.

This time, W is the angular speed of the wheel, directly linked to the car speed and the wheel radius.

p is the power from the engine transmitted to the wheel.

As the energy is kept in a system, the power at wheel is the same as the engine power. p = P

(in fact, as mentioned previously, it is a bit reduced due to friction. Say p = 0.85 P)

Assuming max load, P is the engine max power.

Then

- the wheel angular speed equals the engine angular speed (rpm) devided by the transmission ratio.

- the wheel torque equals the engine torque (at this rpm) multiplied by the transmission ratio.

Bottomline, the max torque applicable to the wheel (at max load) is in direct relationship with the engine max Power.

There is no direct relationship between the max torque at wheel and the engine max torque.

In order to apply the max torque at wheel (and so the max acceleration to the car), you need to run your engine in its range of max power (with suitable gear).

This is always above the peak engine torque revs.

And the peak engine torque alone, is usually no indication of an actual car performance.

My word that's a lot of waffling for something so simple.

Unlike power and torque there is no direct relationship between length of post and accuracy.

Everything I have said is correct and 6 paragraphs of nonsense does not prove it wrong.

BTW your last bit makes no sense.

Max engine power does not equal max wheel torque. Max wheel torque is max engine torque in the lowest available gear.

If what you said was true the car would accelerate best at high rpm but everyone with a tdi will know the best acceleration in any gear is at around 2-2.5k

Edited 30 November, 201510 yr by PhilbvRS

My word that's a lot of waffling for something so simple.

Unlike power and torque there is no direct relationship between length of post and accuracy.

Everything I have said is correct and 6 paragraphs of nonsense does not prove it wrong.

 

Unfortunately, life is sometimes more complex that one thanks.

If however you don't want or have no capability to make the effort, you may at least keep a civil tone ;-)

BTW your last bit makes no sense.

Max engine power does not equal max wheel torque. Max wheel torque is max engine torque in the lowest available gear.

 

Of course a power does not equal a torque.

No, the max wheel torque is not the max engine torque in the lowest gear.

The tsi seems to have a very limited torque output map in first. Somethings definitely there to limit it.

Of course a power does not equal a torque.

No, the max wheel torque is not the max engine torque in the lowest gear.

That's like saying f does not equal ma.

zoom zoom, broom broom

That's like saying f does not equal ma.

 

OK, the max wheel torque is achieved at the revs of the max engine torque in the lowest gear. This makes it 4200Nm, between 16 and 27 km/h. Very good...But you can't get it at higher speed than 27 km/h or below 16...

For any higher speed, you will always have a better (rev, gear) couple solution to put more torque to the wheel than remaining at max engine torque revs.

And this better solution will always correspond to revs in the max engine power range, unless the engineers having designed the gearbox completely screwed up.

That's what I meant by "the max torque applicable to the wheel (at max load) is in direct relationship with the engine max Power" (I should have mentioned except when you are still in 1st gear).

OK, the max wheel torque is achieved at the revs of the max engine torque in the lowest gear. This makes it 4200Nm, between 16 and 27 km/h. Very good...But you can't get it at higher speed than 27 km/h or below 16...

For any higher speed, you will always have a better (rev, gear) couple solution to put more torque to the wheel than remaining at max engine torque revs.

And this better solution will always correspond to revs in the max engine power range, unless the engineers having designed the gearbox completely screwed up.

That's what I meant by "the max torque applicable to the wheel (at max load) is in direct relationship with the engine max Power" (I should have mentioned except when you are still in 1st gear).

Wheel torque is engine torque multiplied by gear ratio. You'll notice engine speed has nothing to do with wheel torque

Power is torque x revs divided 5252.

Edited 30 November, 201510 yr by PhilbvRS

I would say that car 'bites' as long as You are pulled to back od the seat, means You got acceleration, right?

I am no racer, but on vRS it stops brutally after ~3.000rpm, so it's a good time to shift or You will loose that momentum in next gear.

Diesels are always ''driven by torque" and they got them plenty in low rev's, quite opposite as the petrol engines which will most likely hesistate or even stall if You hit them hard at only 1.500rpm. But that rev range is usually a starting point for turbo spinup and where the fun starts on diesel.

No offence, but I need no formula or torque chart for that :-)

Just a few miles of normal drive and I simply know what engine can do.

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If what you said was true the car would accelerate best at high rpm but everyone with a tdi will know the best acceleration in any gear is at around 2-2.5k

Of course a car will give best acceleration in any particular gear at the engine speed which gives peak torque. But changing down a gear will give you more power, less torque at the engine, more torque at the wheel and better acceleration.

You will get more torque at the wheel and therefore better acceleration at 4000rpm in third gear than at 2000rpm in fourth. As you say above, 2000rpm in third will give better acceleration than 4000rpm in third, but then 4000rpm in second will be better still and 2000rpm in second better than that.

Of course a car will give best acceleration in any particular gear at the engine speed which gives peak torque. But changing down a gear will give you more power, less torque at the engine, more torque at the wheel and better acceleration.

You will get more torque at the wheel and therefore better acceleration at 4000rpm in third gear than at 2000rpm in fourth. As you say above, 2000rpm in third will give better acceleration than 4000rpm in third, but then 4000rpm in second will be better still and 2000rpm in second better than that.

That's exactly what I've been saying.

Unlike someone else who started by saying the trick was to change early then went onto say that peak wheel torque was at high rpm in low gear.

Posting paragraphs of nonsense to try and look smart.

Edited 1 December, 201510 yr by PhilbvRS