w10 - giving it away hasn't worked ?

[GentleGiant]

There are a awful lot of underpowered laptops out there at the moment with minimum graphics, ram, processors and slow HDs.  I been doing a lot of research recently when I decided to do the upgrade  and it was a decision whether to go for  laptop or a build a desktop.

 

A couple things came to light:-

 

Intel's nomenclature of it's range of CPUs is very confusing as you can have a i7 in a laptop that is basically is the same as mid range desktop power (but lower energy use).

 

Laptops are still poor value v performance.  

 

In regards to cheap laptops I have the following to say:- 

 

My MIL has a cheap Lenovo Laptop with a Intel celeron 2815 and frankly  it's very slow (especially when doing window updates!) - it was under Win 8 and it's probably a little bit quicker under Win 10. If you look at it's benchmarks it should be as fast (if not faster) as the Atom Z3735 powered windows tablets (like the Linx 10) but it just isn't.  I'm not sure why - the OS is the same - it even had more RAM (4gb v 2gb) - the only thing I can put it down to is disk speed - I think these cheap laptops are shipped with the slowest 2.5 HD they can find and this drags the whole performance down to it's very slow level. The tablets don't have an HD or SSD but 32GB Flash (not as fast as a SATA SSD but considerably faster than HD).

 

I considering doing a SSD (£35) upgrade to see if this actually is the problem. MIL doesn't care about the speed as she only uses it to skype her daughter in the US - which it does well. 

 

Fitting a SSD can make a big difference, even to a very old and slow system, I replaced the drives in my ancient Asus notebook and an even more ancient Dell SX280 with SSDs, the Asus has an IDE ATA100MB interface and the Dell a SATA1 (1.5Gbps) interface, but both feel much faster in general use. I recently tested the HDDs in my system, and even the newest and fastest couldnt max out a SATA 1 spec interface, and most didnt reach the limits imposed by the old IDE ATA100 limit.

 

I am rather proud of the old Dell, I managed to bypass the 8MB video RAM limit, so it now uses the maximum the chipset can handle (128MB), upgraded the 32bit, 2.8GHz P4 cpu to a 64bit, 3.4GHz P4 (although this makes the cooling fans run a bit fierce), upgraded the RAM with 4GB of DDR2 1066MHZ Ballistixs modules I had lying around, and plonked in a fast 60GB SSD to replace the elderly WD 40GB HDD.

I am just waiting on a HDD drive bay to fit the media module bay, so I can fit a spare HDD in, and my daughter will have a lovely, compact PC to play her pre-school games on, and to watch Ni Hao Ki Lan videos on.

 

Appears that one of the few constant things in IT is - never buy a Celeron.

 

Even I'd assumed that a Celeron could cope these days since we have Dell 11" tablets with Atom processors that work just fine.

 

But nope - Celeron = ****e

 

Hasn't changed for nearly 20yr.

 

Actually, Intel have rebranded some of the Atom chips as Celeron - just to confuse you.

Edited 12 January, 2016 by GentleGiant

[Clunkclick]

The only downside for businesses with that, is that you probably can't, unlike the home user,  afford from a business continuity pov to  "Replace on fail" - has to be done on an "Across-the board" basis or at least in blocks.

 

The other possibility I'm expecting, given the current trend in most consumer products,  is that the new laptop won't last as long as the old one ! 

 

If I wasn't so cynically inclined I'd be laying a bet that a straight-line apportioned capital  costs of £50 a year or less, as was experienced with the old Packard, will translate into a 8 year life for the new HP  !

 

 

Nick

Edited 12 January, 2016 by Clunkclick

[GentleGiant]

Adding an SSD, even to a laptop, can allow you to have a raid system, you can buy mSATA and M.2 adapters that allow you to put 2-4 drives in the place of one 2.5" drive; depending on the type bought, and the settings selected, you can max out the speed, or mirror your data across multiple drives.

 

Some SSDs also sip tiny amounts of power when idle, making the battery last a lot longer than with an old mechanical drive - or even a main-stream SSD; there is a speed hit with these low power drives, but currently there is very little difference in price.

 

As for SSDs costing a premium, prices are coming down and drive sizes going up all the time, some of the cheaper TLC 1TB drives are now close to £100; which is pretty good value if you compare them to mechanical drives with the same supposed reliability (the "Enterprise" models), and tests have shown the MLC flash versions to be good for Pentabytes of writing, far beyond the suggested reliability limits (in tests the Samsung 840 (TLC) crapped out at about 780 Terabytes - still well beyond expectations)

[CWARD]

Just for comparison I run a Macbook Pro 15 Retina and a Macbook Air as well as the wife having a Lenovo Yoga and an Acer desktop PC. Due to my main work I need a Windows PC as my software isn't available on a Mac. Both my Macbook's are set up as dual boot with Windows 10 installed.

The performance of Windows 10 on a Macbook Pro is fantastic and faster than El Capitan which feels laggy in comparison. Damo's statement about trusting Apple because he never has any issues with his Mac is no where near a fair comparison. On the same hardware Windows 10 will out perform it's fruity competitor and is probably more stable, I've not had any hangups in Windows but on the same machine I've had the spinny wheel in El Capitan. Both have had their fair share of updates. Annoying yes but I'd rather they fix any problems than deny there is an issue.

I mentioned the wife having a Lenovo Yoga. This isn't the latest one with the sexy hinge but a much older one, about 3 years old, that came with a hybrid SSD hard drive, i5 processor and touchscreen. It has been upgraded from Windows 8 to 10 and had some driver issues to begin with but after re-installing the latest driver from the manufacturer it really flies. In normal emailing, browsing, watching videos and office programs it really flies and holds it own against the Macbook Pro at nearly 4 times the cost.

If you give Windows 10 half decent hardware to run on you will be impressed.

Buy a budget laptop and you won't get that same experience. Clunkclick comments about new laptops is spot on. Most new ones I've come across around the £350 price or less are merely disposable items. The plastics flex to the touch, keyboards are cheap and nasty but they have have managed to fit a touchscreen as a selling point and build it to a budget due to kickbacks for installing bloat ware from 3rd parties.

[gullyg]

Kickbacks are the worry - just look at the spyware Lenovo put in its consumer kit. I've been asked to recommend a £1k laptop and I would have normally gone for the Lenovo thinkpad t series but starting to wonder if you can trust them even if they weren't messing with thinkpads.

[CWARD]

Lenovo and Dell are still the brands I would recommend. HP seem to have lost the plot with bloat ware and Sony are no longer on the scene although they still support their laptops. The Lenovo machines that were affected were again the budget ones and as you said the Thinkpad series were unaffected. What ever machine as soon as they get it do software re-install without the additional programs. 

[Mort]

The performance of Windows 10 on a Macbook Pro is fantastic and faster than El Capitan which feels laggy in comparison. Damo's statement about trusting Apple because he never has any issues with his Mac is no where near a fair comparison. On the same hardware Windows 10 will out perform it's fruity competitor and is probably more stable, I've not had any hangups in Windows but on the same machine I've had the spinny wheel in El Capitan. Both have had their fair share of updates. Annoying yes but I'd rather they fix any problems than deny there is an issue.

 

I've found the opposite on my Retina Macbook Pro, Win 10 runs quick but nowhere near as smooth and stable as El Capitan for me

 

My main Gaming PC is still on Win 7, though I may take the plunge with that at some point now I have a bit more confidence with Win 10 actually being an upgrade.

[CWARD]

Using laggy in my description probably unfair as OSX isn't but it doesn't have the snap of Windows 10 where everything is instant. If yours isn't as good try downloading the latest drivers from Apple.

 

My wife previously used a Windows phone and the integrating with Windows 8 was quite impressive. Apple since Yosemite have also gone down the same route with transfer between Iphone/Ipads IOS and the Mac OSX being really good and a God send when you're out of the office. I wonder how Windows 10 has responded to this as they seemed to have seen this integration of mobile and computer a bit earlier and not sure if I'm right on this but Windows 10 mobile now supports (or going to) apps from Android and Apple.  

[GentleGiant]

My main worries about Win10 have always been the data slurping; it goes far beyond what Google tries, and effectively opens a backdoor into your PC; all it takes is some criminal gang to find that backdoor - which is inevitable - and your PC is pwned.

 

I manually check EVERY update file from M$ now, and refuse the ones that want to install Win10 files or spyware "to improve your use experience" - so that is about 70% of the non security updates.

[Aspman]

WinPho 8 on Win10 really is nothing to write home about.

 

I have a lot of the features that rely on slurping switched off which may affect it (no Cortana).

 

Reasonable review on the Lumia 950XL - http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/review/2441156/microsoft-lumia-950-xl-review

 

Most review of Windows phones seem to get written by rabid fanbois of one camp or another.

[Dr Zoidberg]

Sounds like it could be crappy EMMC storage at fault.

[VWD]

Oh dear, hope I didn't pour any fuel on that fire then.

 

My point was primarily about my displeasure with Win 10... Honest.

My point, also . .i wanted a "why is MS trying this on " post ,rather than a mud sling one(as O/S posts often tend to become, with Linux lovers on one side, and Windows lovers on the other) ,where mods have to step in and close the topic.

Edited 13 January, 2016 by VWD

[VWD]

Now we have --

Microsoft Reveals Real Cost Of 'Free' Windows 10

 

And this makes good reading

In short: your computer hardware must remain ‘old’ if you want to keep using Windows 7 or Windows 8 – implausible for anyone hoping to have a respectable system in 2023. Meanwhile if you buy a new computer and attempt to install Windows 7 or Windows 8 on it, the support will be invalid which means no antivirus or security patches. If you want a new computer you will have to use Windows 10 – the first time such a restriction has been made in the 30 year history of Windows.

 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonkelly/2016/02/05/free-windows-10-true-cost/?utm_campaign=yahootix&partner=yahootix&ref=yfp#2a72919e593f

[gullyg]

Now we have --

Microsoft Reveals Real Cost Of 'Free' Windows 10

 

And this makes good reading

In short: your computer hardware must remain ‘old’ if you want to keep using Windows 7 or Windows 8 – implausible for anyone hoping to have a respectable system in 2023. Meanwhile if you buy a new computer and attempt to install Windows 7 or Windows 8 on it, the support will be invalid which means no antivirus or security patches. If you want a new computer you will have to use Windows 10 – the first time such a restriction has been made in the 30 year history of Windows.

 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonkelly/2016/02/05/free-windows-10-true-cost/?utm_campaign=yahootix&partner=yahootix&ref=yfp#2a72919e593f

 

That article is awful!  I'd hope people wouldn't describe me as a MS Fanboi - although I like Win10 to be honest.

 

So much wrong with that article but my understanding is,

 

You don't "own" windows - you "own" a license to use it.

OEM licenses are non-transferable, you can't legitimately move an OEM license from one PC to another, of the licenses the average punter is most likely to see only retail licenses are transferable.

In 2023 Windows 7 will be about 14yrs old (release date was 2009 apparently).  14yrs ago was 2002 which was the release date for Windows XP - I'd be very surprised to find a brand new machine that XP will run on happily, especially as XP has a "bug" where it can't tell the difference between cores and CPUs making it think a dual/quad/etc core cpu machine is SMP and therefore not covered by Home license (1 cpu) or pro (2cpu).

 

Also does Windows 7 or 8 run on qualcom chips? 

Edited 6 February, 2016 by gullyg

[VWD]

 

You don't "own" windows - you "own" a license to use it.

No, but I own the PC, AND I  say what runs on it, what updates it gets etc. I've got round the W10 updates,by installing W10 on a separate partition, but I don't see any advantage in using it. I've also got XP (pro)on a separate partition as I have old faithful hardware that has problems running on W7(even in compatibility mode), and few programs that are not 64bit compatible. XP has no problems working with my DC  AMD CPU.

 

TBH- it's a bit like Brussels ordering the UK to drive on the left, with an incentive of new cars, but the new cars would have some monitoring software.

[SuperbTWM]

 

 

Intel's nomenclature of it's range of CPUs is very confusing as you can have a i7 in a laptop that is basically is the same as mid range desktop power (but lower energy use).

 

 

 

Don't forget there are about a million version of the i7 in both desktop and mobile

 

The 3 or 4 year old i7 in my PC is nothing like the newer ones available, its a minefield

[bigjohn]

 

TBH- it's a bit like Brussels ordering the UK to drive on the left, with an incentive of new cars, but the new cars would have some monitoring software.

 

With phased installation - Lorries first week, cars the week after 

 

Two things I hate about Windows 10 after I installed it (reverted later)

 

1) From my laptop being useable at work throughout the day without charge - was dead before lunch

2) Captures some of your key-strokes for diagnostics?  and phones home

Edited 7 February, 2016 by bigjohn

[gullyg]

No, but I own the PC, AND I  say what runs on it, what updates it gets etc. I've got round the W10 updates,by installing W10 on a separate partition, but I don't see any advantage in using it. I've also got XP (pro)on a separate partition as I have old faithful hardware that has problems running on W7(even in compatibility mode), and few programs that are not 64bit compatible. XP has no problems working with my DC  AMD CPU.

 

TBH- it's a bit like Brussels ordering the UK to drive on the left, with an incentive of new cars, but the new cars would have some monitoring software.

 

That's fair enough - it's up to you to install or not to install Win10 and take the choice of auto updates or not.  If you don't like them you can always stick with Windows 7 or 8 and blacklist the Windows 10 update patch. 

 

XP or XP SP1/2/3?  There was a big difference especially between XP and XP SP1.

Edited 7 February, 2016 by gullyg

[io1901]

With phased installation - Lorries first week, cars the week after 

 

Two things I hate about Windows 10 after I installed it (reverted later)

 

1) From my laptop being useable at work throughout the day without charge - was dead before lunch

2) Captures some of your key-strokes for diagnostics?  and phones home

I would say your first problem is down to your pc manufacturer not having the correct drivers on both my tablets the battery life has been extended considerably. I coming to the conclusion that its not Windows 10 that's the problem it's the dodgy drivers being provided by the hardware manufacturers. I've done 4 upgrades and one new build and they have all gone well - all the hardware was pretty standard (ie off the shelve components) stuff.

A Sony viao at work took days to get working properly as Sony's drivers only liked being installed in a specific order or the wifi/Bluetooth wouldn't work.

This is the main problem of windows v OS X - Apple only has to allow for a finite combination of hardware (as they control the hardware) - I wouldn't want to calculate the number of variations that occur in the PC ecosystem.

Edited 7 February, 2016 by io1901

[VWD]

gully- it's XP pro ON SP3. I've never used auto updates since one time I had a lot of updates on XP and after one lot I had problems. Took a lot of deleting of updates to find the culprit. Another reason for the switch off of updates ,and my singular use of w7 for net, is that I'm on a low speed /low allowance contract and with W10's appetite i'd be constantly throttled and exceeding my data allowance. With w7, I can at least check for any updates and decide which I want. Very useful as my Office is 2003 ,and on manual updates on W7, MS wants to download updates for office 2007. That's the last thing I want, as although I've tried 2007, IMHO, it's a s foreign to a 2003 user as W10 might be to a w95 user

Edited 7 February, 2016 by VWD

[gadgetman]

So essentially your machines are unpatched and vulnerable?

[GentleGiant]

So essentially your machines are unpatched and vulnerable?

 

The latter is true of ANY Winbox.

[io1901]

The latter is true of ANY Winbox.

 

Any computer attached to the internet.

[GentleGiant]

True, but even unpatched, the AV and firewall should keep it safe. Lets be honest, even fully patched, a Winbox is about as airtight as a colander.

[VWD]

Vulnerable if you are brainwashed by MS thinknology. From my experience, Windows downloads are as much of a danger to your PC as none. I run, Avast free, with constant dos run scans/ rogue killer, which runs in C+ ,and scans with Spybot/ Malwarebytes and Superantispyware.

Last time I saw something in this vein was at college , in software development. We were using old 386 based PC,supposedly run without HD . But on my floppy I had a pseudo virus check system, which threw up any possible problems. one lad had problems, and I put in my disc to reboot his PC, to find a virus on his system. Cue screams of the ignorant"that disc finds viruses everywhere." Later i found that college had NO anti virus software, so I lent them a floppy I'd got free in a Magazine. Turned out about 50% of the PCs had HD, with viral content. But , I often wonder these days if there more attention paid to viral infections than to the bigger danger to us home users of malware.