Even a few deaths is a few too many.  

 

Sentimental, idealistic nonsense, unfortunately.

What do we do with all these spent batteries in 10 years time?

What do we do with all these spent batteries in 10 years time?

Recycled as home storage apparently.

They will do a reasonable job ...... cheap, I assume

Recycled as home storage apparently.

They will do a reasonable job ...... cheap, I assume

I doubt it will be anything but cheap. I think the batteries will end up in third world countries and have children dismantling them. Children dying abroad or getting illnesses doesn't matter to us.

I doubt it will be anything but cheap. I think the batteries will end up in third world countries and have children dismantling them. Children dying abroad or getting illnesses doesn't matter to us.

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1107661_used-electric-car-batteries-should-be-recycled-not-reused-report

Further on supercapacitors

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1107665_supercapacitor-energy-density-could-soar-using-contact-lens-polymer

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1107661_used-electric-car-batteries-should-be-recycled-not-reused-report

I am very cynical about batteries but putting them in homes is a good idea for car companies because the people who have them will have the problem of disposing them a year or two down the line when the batteries are completely useless. Putting batteries in houses is only delaying the problem of what to do with spent batteries by another year or so and the people who are now promoting batteries will be long gone and the politicians will be out of power.

I am very cynical about batteries but putting them in homes is a good idea for car companies because the people who have them will have the problem of disposing them a year or two down the line when the batteries are completely useless. Putting batteries in houses is only delaying the problem of what to do with spent batteries by another year or so and the people who are now promoting batteries will be long gone and the politicians will be out of power.

With human knowledge doubling every 12 months currently, I'm with the scientists.......and they might make a profit out of it also.

Don't worry, those pushing battery tech will have no shortage of enemies.......and they'll have a Trump card to play.

Sentimental, idealistic nonsense, unfortunately.

 

Missed out the word "thousands" ie Even a few "thousand" deaths is ..... too many. 

 

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/diesel-pollution-blamed-for-12-000-early-deaths-a-year-6fh6ns9vm

 

VIDEO

Diesel pollution blamed for 12,000 early deaths a year

Ben Webster, Environment Editor

 

November 24 2016, 12:01am, The Times

Nitrogen dioxide, which is largely produced by diesel engines, inflames the lung lining and causes respiratory diseases such as asthma. More people have their lives cut short by diesel pollution in Britain than in any other European country apart from Italy, a study has found. Almost 12,000 people a year die prematurely in Britain because of exposure to nitrogen dioxide (NO₂), which is largely produced by diesel engines, the European Environment Agency (EEA) said. In Germany, which has 16 million more people, there are 10,600 premature deaths a year from NO₂, according to the agency, which advises the EU on environmental issues.  The High Court ruled this month that the government was failing to tackle NO₂ pollution and ordered ministers to draw up a plan by July to reduce it in cities. 

Edited 10 December, 20169 yr by lol-lol

SCR coming into the market will belatedly make a significant difference hopefully.

The scrapage rate for old ones needs to accelerate

Professional groups pushing for diesels to be replaced by other less polluting means of transport....

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-38274792

 

 

Doctors call for ban on diesel engines in London

•  

  A campaign led by medical professionals is calling for all diesel cars to be banned from London.  Doctors Against Diesel claim 9,400 Londoners a year die  prematurely from breathing in toxic fumes from diesel engines.  Paris, Madrid, Mexico City and Athens have committed to a ban on diesel vehicles by 2025.Doctors Against Diesel - comprising doctors, nurses and health professionals - are calling for Sadiq Khan, Mayor of London, to commit to phasing out diesel vehicles from London.  Mr Khan has already said he wants to get rid of diesel buses by 2018.  A spokesman for the mayor said he has no legal powers to ban cars in London and is calling on the government "to face its responsibility and implement a national diesel scrappage scheme now".  "The mayor has more than doubled air quality funding and is doing everything in his power to tackle London's toxic air and rid the city of the most polluting vehicles....

Edited 10 December, 20169 yr by lol-lol

Did the medical profession get the High Court involved?.

While I'm sure EV cars will become the norm in the future in their present format they are not yet the answer. I rarely travel into city centres, but drive on average 30 - 35k miles a year. I need an estate car to carry equipment and I could be travelling anywhere from 50 to 450 miles in one trip, so EV's are too small and I would have to stop to charge them on long trips. If I went to petrol the mpg would be nowhere near the diesel mpg, so EV's need to have larger models and have a minimum real world range of around 300 miles to be viable.

 

The Renault Zoe at around £18k with the government rebate, which is more expensive than a petrol equivalent car and then you have to lease the batteries at between £45-100 a month depending on the mileage you do, or buy the car with the batteries for around £25k. No real incentive for buying an EV.

 

As for the premature deaths for air pollution I would like to know how premature? The doctors against diesel have stated that 40% of the Nox comes from diesel cars so get them banned, what about the cause of the 60% of the Nox?

In the US they have recorded similar levels of 'premature deaths' due to air pollution, but in the US only 3% of cars are diesel.

I expect them to start off as the second (town) car

While I'm sure EV cars will become the norm in the future in their present format they are not yet the answer. I rarely travel into city centres, but drive on average 30 - 35k miles a year. I need an estate car to carry equipment and I could be travelling anywhere from 50 to 450 miles in one trip, so EV's are too small and I would have to stop to charge them on long trips. If I went to petrol the mpg would be nowhere near the diesel mpg, so EV's need to have larger models and have a minimum real world range of around 300 miles to be viable.

 

The Renault Zoe at around £18k with the government rebate, which is more expensive than a petrol equivalent car and then you have to lease the batteries at between £45-100 a month depending on the mileage you do, or buy the car with the batteries for around £25k. No real incentive for buying an EV.

 

As for the premature deaths for air pollution I would like to know how premature? The doctors against diesel have stated that 40% of the Nox comes from diesel cars so get them banned, what about the cause of the 60% of the Nox?

In the US they have recorded similar levels of 'premature deaths' due to air pollution, but in the US only 3% of cars are diesel.

 

Needing and estate car is just that EVs have not appeared as estate cars yet, though you can get EV vans of course. At some point it is logical to expect a Zoe estate it is just there is not the client demand there yet and not that it is technically more challenging.  My Logan is an estate version of the Clio ie similar originating unit as the Zoe and the power/fuel consumption is not significantly worse than the Clio so adding another half a meter to the length and a little bit more weight does not harm fuel consumption much at all.  We await road test on the new Zoe Z40 but it sounds like it will be capable of 400 mile round trips.

 

As to cost are you comparing apples with apples.  Thinking of the battery hire and the charging costs and compare that to the fuel cost is the fairer comparison surely?   How much fuel do you buy a month?   With my 50 mpg I get in the Logan and my 3k miles per month I am buying 60 gallons of fuel at a cost of £260 on fuel compared to what I might spend on batteries ie £110 rental and say 20 charges at £3 a charge (fee on Saturday and Sundays with some providers) so quids in.

 

In the US they have a different mix of vehicles and other sources ie much dirtier pick up trucks by the million, not sure how much SCR has made it through to the transport fleet but not as high as UK I am quite certain plus other dirtier sources ie coal power stations.  All areas need to be cleaned up not just vehicles but heating systems ie use electric rather than fossil, to achieve the clean up of air pollutants.      

Edited 11 December, 20169 yr by lol-lol

Discussions are taking place already about moving from fuel taxes to tolling on the basis of annual mileage

Double taxation for some?.

Discussions are taking place already about moving from fuel taxes to tolling on the basis of annual mileage

Double taxation for some?.

 

That would be scary for us who do 80k kms per year but then if we get a discount for electric vehicles then it might not be too bad.  

 

Might some additional issues, ie I sometimes take the shorter A road route rather than the quicker motorway route, would it be based on a declared mileage through a retrospective  return.

Many problems I can see. 

Exeter Uni breakthrough in handling of Graphene

http://www.cemag.us/news/2016/12/cheap-easy-graphene-production-method-game-changer?et_cid=5729992&et_rid=916553762&type=cta&et_cid=5729992&et_rid=916553762&linkid=http%3a%2f%2fwww.cemag.us%2fnews%2f2016%2f12%2fcheap-easy-graphene-production-method-game-changer%3fet_cid%3d5729992%26et_rid%3d%25%25subscriberid%25%25%26type%3dcta

^ Sounded interesting until they asked for £24 for a download of the paper! :thumbdown:

^ Sounded interesting until they asked for £24 for a download of the paper! :thumbdown:

Such is the modern uni and its commercial arm these days of government cutbacks

The progress of electrical energy production and linked with battery storage is now a revolution just in time as fossil fuels climb in price due to OPEC and US price controls.......

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-12-15/world-energy-hits-a-turning-point-solar-that-s-cheaper-than-wind

 

 

Emerging markets are leapfrogging the developed world thanks to cheap panels.

by 

Tom Randall

December 15, 2016, 6:00 AM GMT  December 15, 2016, 6:04 AM GMT

There’s a transformation happening in global energy markets that’s worth noting as 2016 comes to an end: Solar power, for the first time, is becoming the cheapest form of new electricity.   There have been isolated projects in the past where this happened: An especially competitive auction in the Middle East, for example, resulting in record-cheap solar costs. But now unsubsidized solar is beginning to outcompete coal and natural gas on a larger scale, and notably, new solar projects in emerging markets are costing less to build than wind projects, according to fresh data from Bloomberg New Energy Finance. 

I was asked on a survey relating to my 2008 if a replacement might include either battery, hybrid, LPG, CNG, petrol or diesel.

Looks like fishing for future intentions. You wouldn't want, as a manufacturer, to be late meeting changing market demands, particularly after moves to ban diesels in large cities.

The old saying, times are a' changing has never been more true.

Aussie moves by BMW for BEV infrastructure

http://goautomedia.cdn.on.net/gan_premium/GoAutoNews_Premium_Newsletter_037.pdf#page19

I was asked on a survey relating to my 2008 if a replacement might include either battery, hybrid, LPG, CNG, petrol or diesel.

Looks like fishing for future intentions. You wouldn't want, as a manufacturer, to be late meeting changing market demands, particularly after moves to ban diesels in large cities.

The old saying, times are a' changing has never been more true.

 

The new 41 Kw/hr Zoe looks like a good fir to my fleet unless I can get one of the Blue Solution EV cars that we are rolling out in the UK but I would probably keep the Dacia Logan for the very long distant journeys ie 300 kms to Plymouth and particularly in winter where EV range is hampered at present.

 

I see Renault Oz is not distributing EVs there but presumably the US cars ie Bolt/Volt etc are.  The Nissan-Alliance seems to have the jump on others in the market but I think it is sowing up the battery producers ie LG Chem.  We produce our own batteries and Superconductors for our EV cars and buses but along with the supply of lithium this could be part of the challenge.     

We have such a competitive new car market, I think the dealerships are dreading BEVs and the effect on there service/maintenance profits.

We have the Nissan Leaf but they're scarce as...