https://www.whatcar.com/news/nissan-leaf-vs-renault-zoe-vs-volkswagen-e-golf/

 

Shocker on the new LEAF real world range.

e-Golf is a joke.

Zoe tested was the quick charge version where I would go for the non QC as it has 9 % more range but still fast charges 40% in 1 hour.  

 

 

Specifications: Nissan Leaf 110kW N-Connecta

Engine Electric motor

List price £30,490

Target Price £25,990

Power 148bhp

Torque 236Ib ft

Gearbox Single-speed automatic

0-60mph 8.2sec

Top speed 89mph

Official max range 235 miles

Real-world claimed range n/a

What Car? test real-world range 108 miles

---

Specifications: Renault Zoe Q90 ZE40 i Dynamique Nav

Engine Electric motor

List price £29,020

Target Price £18,719

Power 87bhp

Torque 162Ib ft

Gearbox Single-speed automatic

0-60mph 13.0sec

Top speed 84mph

Official max range 230 miles

Real-world claimed range 174 miles (summer), 112 miles (winter)

What Car? test real-world range 131 miles

---

Specifications: e-golf

Engine Electric motor

List price £32,190

Target Price £27,690

Power 134bhp

Torque 214Ib ft

Gearbox Single-speed automatic

0-60mph 9.0sec

Top speed 93mph

Official max range 186 miles

Real-world claimed range 125

What Car? test real-world range 93 miles

 

Of course the Zoe has better range...   It has much less performance an a much weaker motor...   It's simple physics???

 

And let's face it they all have real test ranges massively lower than claimed!

Shipping forecast: Calm conditions in the North Sea and Baltic -

https://electrek.co/2018/02/03/all-electric-ferry-cuts-emission-cost/

13 hours ago, skomaz said:

Of course the Zoe has better range...   It has much less performance an a much weaker motor...   It's simple physics???

And let's face it they all have real test ranges massively lower than claimed!

 

Not sure about your understanding of physics but mine, relating to car dynamic and previous experience with Fluid mechanics, Thermodynamics, working for Piper etc, is that energy usage is going to be related to aerodynamics mostly and then weight and rolling resistance of the tyres.  

 

The Zoe has a 41 kW-H battery where as the Nissan is quoted as 40 and the Golf a considerably smaller 35.8 kW-H.   The Zoe is Clio/Polo sized where as Leaf and Golf are more like, well Golf sized.  

 

What Cars 108 miles is going to be a bit of a shock to many LEAF potnetial buyers I would have thought. As to range Renault actually state the range of the Zoe in winter is 200 Kms and then more like 300 km is summer so 131 miles is quite good but then the temperatures were only 3 to 5 c and not proper sub zero.  If you read the full test they actually range the test with quite a inconsiderate driving style.  

 

If I was driving the LEAF I would probably have enjoyed that 0-62 in 7.9 seconds ie quicker than most VRS diesel !

 

I have seen Zoe on the motorway keeping up the 130- 135 kph ie low to mid 80s, on the speedo, for tens of miles, so quite a good commuter vehicle and those running most of 5p a mile compared to 10-15p for energy is somewhat tempting. 

 

 

 

What this shows is that where manufacturers made unrealistic claims regarding mpg figures for petrol and diesel cars they are doing the same with EV's. A Zoe at 84 mph flat out sounds a real joy on a motorway. I wonder how long the battery lasts when running the motor flat out?

 

Thank goodness in the UK they are going over the speed limit because they come up you in all weathers with the DRL's shining and go away past with no rear lights on.

Those narrow Eco tyres are obviously wonderful in standing water and icy / snowy roads. 

 

 Good if there will be less White ones about.  If they could just have them with Dim Dip headlights and tail lights on as a Default.

31 minutes ago, moley said:

What this shows is that where manufacturers made unrealistic claims regarding mpg figures for petrol and diesel cars they are doing the same with EV's. A Zoe at 84 mph flat out sounds a real joy on a motorway. I wonder how long the battery lasts when running the motor flat out?

 

 

Have not been in one but I would have thought the Zoe is well within its capabilities right up to its 140 kph/87 top wack.

 

As to worrying about parts as it is a Renault it has the 100k (160k kms) 4 year warranty rather than the poxy VAG group 60k miles 3 year warranty.  Confidence in their product or what.

If you want a 100k warranty you have to pay more  to offset the costs incurred.

 

 

36 minutes ago, AwaoffSki said:

 

 

Nice review.  warmer weather, like Robert Llewellyn's Portugal test and 400 km/240 miles possible.   

7 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

Have not been in one but I would have thought the Zoe is well within its capabilities right up to its 140 kph/87 top wack.

 

As to worrying about parts as it is a Renault it has the 100k (160k kms) 4 year warranty rather than the poxy VAG group 60k miles 3 year warranty.  Confidence in their product or what.

If you want a 100k warranty you have to pay more  to offset the costs incurred.

The spec sheet showed the max speed at 84 and not 87.

I wasn't referring to the reliability of the batteries, I meant how long would the charge last by travelling at top speed. On the subject of warranty what is the situation with the batteries if you buy them outright and don't lease them? Are batteries covered by warranty or are they 'wear and tear' items?

According to the Renault website the warranty is 3 years and 60k (unlimited mileage in the first 2 years and up to 60k in the 3rd year. except for Vans and the Zoe where you can go to 100k in the third year.

3 hours ago, moley said:

The spec sheet showed the max speed at 84 and not 87.

I wasn't referring to the reliability of the batteries, I meant how long would the charge last by travelling at top speed. On the subject of warranty what is the situation with the batteries if you buy them outright and don't lease them? Are batteries covered by warranty or are they 'wear and tear' items?

According to the Renault website the warranty is 3 years and 60k (unlimited mileage in the first 2 years and up to 60k in the 3rd year. except for Vans and the Zoe where you can go to 100k in the third year.

 

My bad, 100k miles and only 3 years on the Zoe, I got 4 years and 100k on the Clio.  As I do 50k miles a year it is the mileage that catches me out and hence one of the many reasons for giving up on VAG.

https://www.renault.co.uk/owners/renault-assistance/warranties.html

 

Lots of videos showing the Zoe topping out at 140-142 kph (87/88 mph) which with normal speedo error is probably is about 5 % less so a geniune 83/84 mph, quite quiet at that speed.  With a speed limit in France National routes at 130 kph (81 mph they probably thought 135 kph was high enough.

 

Range at that power output is reckoned to be 100 miles cruising at 130 kph (had to use the French site as the Uk one only lets you put in 69 mph (!?) so not to encourage illegal road speed I presume.  

 

https://www.renault.fr/vehicules/vehicules-electriques/zoe-lr.html?adobe_mc_ref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.renault.fr%2F&adobe_mc_sdid=SDID%3D62C8805ACAC8E023-1C330C0168684E06|MCORGID%3D0CB330F0543D46D20A4C98C6%40AdobeOrg|TS%3D1517770119

  

Edited 4 February, 20188 yr by lol-lol

25 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

My bad, 100k miles and only 3 years on the Zoe, I got 4 years and 100k on the Clio.  As I do 50k miles a year it is the mileage that catches me out and hence one of the many reasons for giving up on VAG.

https://www.renault.co.uk/owners/renault-assistance/warranties.html

You can also buy extended warranties on VAG cars.

VAG cars seem to be selling better than Renault in the UK (UK Registrations) % sales change 2016 / 2017

Audi -1.31%

Seat +18.28%

Skoda -0.76%

VW +0.69%

 

Dacia -5.09%

Renault -18.79%

In fact French cars not doing well

Citroen -18.31%

DS -42.87%

Peugeot -16.55% 

 

 

French not cutting the to the discounts VAG cars. 20 to 25% is the norm now on VAG new prices but that great hurts residuals and PVP prices. On a world wide level the Nissan Renault group became the world's largest car company overtaking GM Toyota and VAG.

 

8 hours ago, lol-lol said:

 

Not sure about your understanding of physics.

 

 

Pretty good really - going back a bit now but - Grade A at O-Level, Grade A at A-Level, an Engineering degree from Cambridge University, a Professionally Chartered Engineer and nearly 30 years of engineering experience...   probably beats yours?

 

EDIT - and before you slag me off as a toff and for the upper echelons of society my dad worked in a steelworks, I went to a comprehensive, was initially classed as a remedial at school, and was the first in my family to get into a university.

Edited 4 February, 20188 yr by skomaz

7 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

French not cutting the to the discounts VAG cars. 20 to 25% is the norm now on VAG new prices but that great hurts residuals and PVP prices. On a world wide level the Nissan Renault group became the world's largest car company overtaking GM Toyota and VAG.

Not been able to get 20 - 25% discount on a new car in the VAG group, Could you let me know how do get this?

 

VAG knows where the future lays and the risks associated with the finance/lease model of conventional ICE powered cars.

5-10 years will go quickly for me.

 

 

 

(where do DRL ie daylight running lights mean tail lights also George?)

No EU Ruling that vehicles Type Approved after Feb 2011 that need DRL (Day Time / Daylight Running Lights) fitted as standard to the front need to have rear tail lights on with them.  No EU Rule that they must be working, or UK requirement to.

There are countries that do require that rear lights are on as well.

 

So too many UK drivers are driving when there is no Good Visibility / light during the daytime with just DRL's to the front and no rear tail lights.

Electric vehicles seem to be easily identified by coming up behind them and there being no rear lights on in poor weather, 

but then so are many other vehicles running with no rear lights.  or from Sidelight / Dipped beam.

 

Dim Dip and rear tail lights when they were fitted were a great thing IMO, Volvo Stylee.

Edited 4 February, 20188 yr by AwaoffSki

Thanks George, it takes some imagination for me to identify with such circumstances - another 30* day today, but that doesn’t mean we don’t have unthinking muppets on our roads too.

My beef is about the illegal use of fog lights when there is no fog, just light pollution reducing night vision and making night driving more tiring......more ‘look-at-me’ I’ve got fog lights too!

9 hours ago, moley said:

Not been able to get 20 - 25% discount on a new car in the VAG group, Could you let me know how do get this?

 

 

 

Drivethedeal.....

I suspect huge downturn in the car market in the last few months is driving down the price month after month.  

The Superb for that price is an absolute bargain, never say never I might be back to Skoda at these prices. 

Skoda Fabia 1.0 TSi 110 SE 5dr*		£11,686		Save 22.5%
	Skoda Octavia Hatch 2.0 TSI vRS 5dr *		£19,224		Save 25.5%
	Skoda Octavia Estate 1.5 TSI SE L 5dr DSG *		£18,483		Save 25.5%
	Skoda Superb Estate 2.0 TSI SE L Executive 5dr DSG *		£21,131		Save 28%
	Skoda Kodiaq 2.0 TDI SE 4x4 5dr		£24,068		Save 15.5%

 

9 hours ago, skomaz said:

Pretty good really - going back a bit now but - Grade A at O-Level, Grade A at A-Level, an Engineering degree from Cambridge University, a Professionally Chartered Engineer and nearly 30 years of engineering experience...   probably beats yours?

EDIT - and before you slag me off as a toff and for the upper echelons of society my dad worked in a steelworks, I went to a comprehensive, was initially classed as a remedial at school, and was the first in my family to get into a university.

 

My dad worked in steel too !   But that was or Steelco in Hamilton where they still make 2 million tonnes of steel a year rather than Sheffield which does not and half the people work in public service now.

 

My engineering background.  Diesel Engineering Officer (marine), OND in Mech Eng, distinction in Thermo-Dynamics. BSc Honours Degree, Fluid Mechanics and Thermo-Dynamics, 2-1 level (no Desmonds here), degree placement at Piper fuel injection system system doing rolling road development.

 

What was your Engineering Degree in ie Automotive, Electrical, Mech Eng?  What grade dare I ask? 

18 hours ago, moley said:

The spec sheet showed the max speed at 84 and not 87.

I wasn't referring to the reliability of the batteries, I meant how long would the charge last by travelling at top speed. On the subject of warranty what is the situation with the batteries if you buy them outright and don't lease them? Are batteries covered by warranty or are they 'wear and tear' items?

Motorway speed kills range, this is why Tesla and Hyundai Ioniq are working hard on the car's aero. The new Leaf is nothing but a minor facelift, they haven't worked on the aero, the high speed range is just as bad as the current Leaf. The Ioniq BEV only has 28kWh battery but can come close to new Leaf 40kWh's 110 miles motorway range. Ioniq can also do 70kW charging and has more futureproof CCS charging port.

 

I guess I'm saying, from my Leaf 24 ownership experience, at that price range, buy Ioniq BEV, don't buy the new Leaf. It's inefficient and already outdated, Nissan was feeling complacent.

 

 

Regarding warranty. Not sure about Renault. But for Nissan, there is a battery health bar displayed on the dash, total 12 bars. Nissan EV warranty covers the battery to be above 8 bars over 5 years 80k miles for my 24kWh and 8 years 100k miles (IIRC) for 30kWh and 40kWh. People driving very first 2011 Leaf 24's are reporting to still have 10 bars left. My 3 year old Leaf has 95% health left according to Leafspy OBD tool. So battery health is not really a problem, unlike mobile phones, the BMS on these are far better.

 

So for <30 miles local round trips and those who can have 2 cars. A lower battery health second hand EV is a really really good deal when considering the maintenance-free powertrain and cheap fuel.

3 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Motorway speed kills range, this is why Tesla and Hyundai Ioniq are working hard on the car's aero. The new Leaf is nothing but a minor facelift, they haven't worked on the aero, the high speed range is just as bad as the current Leaf. The Ioniq BEV only has 28kWh battery but can come close to new Leaf 40kWh's 110 miles motorway range. Ioniq can also do 70kW charging and has more futureproof CCS charging port.

 

I guess I'm saying, from my Leaf 24 ownership experience, at that price range, buy Ioniq BEV, don't buy the new Leaf. It's inefficient and already outdated, Nissan was feeling complacent.

 

 

Regarding warranty. Not sure about Renault. But for Nissan, there is a battery health bar displayed on the dash, total 12 bars. Nissan EV warranty covers the battery to be above 8 bars over 5 years 80k miles for my 24kWh and 8 years 100k miles (IIRC) for 30kWh and 40kWh. People driving very first 2011 Leaf 24's are reporting to still have 10 bars left. My 3 year old Leaf has 95% health left according to Leafspy OBD tool. So battery health is not really a problem, unlike mobile phones, the BMS on these are far better.

 

So for <30 miles local round trips and those who can have 2 cars. A lower battery health second hand EV is a really really good deal when considering the maintenance-free powertrain and cheap fuel.

That's useful information.

Looking at the Renault site it appears that you have to lease the batteries at an extortionate rate per month.

An 'Extortionate rate'  for one person might not be for another if they use the car then have no 'Congestion / Emissions Zone Charges', Parking costs or charging costs and no fuel to buy or VED to pay for.

http://renault.co.uk/renault-finance/battery-hire.html 

 

In Scotland you can get a 6 year interest free loan from the Government / Tax Payers to buy a new EV.

Electric Car Incentives 2_ Scottish Government - Loans and Grants - Fuel Included_ Electric cars with FREE fuel.mhtml

Edited 5 February, 20188 yr by AwaoffSki

You can buy Zoe I versions, you'll own the battery outright. A Leaf youtuber is in the process of switching from old Leaf 24 to Zoe 40 said he purchased the Zoe with battery outright for 16k, that's a well good deal!

 

I've went to Renault dealer and asked whether it is possible to purchase the Zoe battery lease outright, Nissan offered something similar on their Flex lease battery. Typically for a 3 year old car it would cost ~£3000 to purchase outright. Unfortunately Renault prefer people to continue to pay extortionate amount.

 

This is not a problem for first time buyers already paying PCP/lease, simply part of monthly payment. But for second hand buyers the lease doesn't make any sense what so ever. Whole battery lease idea is stupid beyond comprehension.

Some people just want to choose a car, sign an agreement and get the car and then be worry free.

As the if the finances make sense, that is for them to decide.

 

 

Edited 5 February, 20188 yr by AwaoffSki