12 hours ago, Wino said:

"That advice includes not storing the car in hot environments"

Hmmm. Not a problem in the UK, but...

So if you have a garage, don't park your EV in it. Or maybe even don't park your EV in direct sunlight?

Don't park your car in Australia, for sure.

Park it in the shade of the solar power canopy for charging the car and running the A/C / refrigeration of the power packs.

Or just drive a petroleum vehicle, it will be more efficient in use of natural resources, mined mineral.

UK trucks -

https://electrek.co/2018/03/20/daimler-electric-truck-fuso-ecanter-uk/

More battery capacity improvements -

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1115806_silicon-anodes-to-boost-lithium-ion-battery-capacity-within-a-few-years

 

will you be able to ‘update’ your battery pack, I wonder?.

Refabricated Leaf battery refurbishments -

https://electrek.co/2018/03/26/nissan-leaf-battery-pack-replacement-program/

 

(would there actually be a demand?)

file

6 hours ago, Ryeman said:

Refabricated Leaf battery refurbishments -

https://electrek.co/2018/03/26/nissan-leaf-battery-pack-replacement-program/

 

(would there actually be a demand?)

file

 

The 24 kWh pack looks to be far more robust than the 30 kWh pack and we are starting to hear concerns that the 40 kWh pack can suffer from slow charging if one wants to charge more than a couple of times in a day due to heat soak.    £5,600 for jut the battery and then a few hundred quid to replace sounds like a lot.   If I had a 30 kWh pack I would want a free new pack which Nissan should provide as the degredation is too steep. 

 

The Renault Zoe still sounds the best ie the Leading, Affordable Environmentally Friendly (LEAF) vehicle to me on several counts ie affordability, range, recharging more than once in a short period.     

Nissan should be able to tweak these issues and even retrofit some cooling (and warming) to the 30 and 40 kWh packs to hopefully make them more useable.  

Shame there are some negative stories without greater understanding.  Working on a rolling road what I see below for batteries is similar to what I have seen when measuring Internal Combustion Engine car outputs !  

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 27 March, 20188 yr by lol-lol

Cooling is going to be a significant factor in Australia and I’m not sure if Nissan Renault are particularly interested in engineering for our mid continent high summer conditions..........at this stage.

My 3 year old Leaf 24kWh still has 94% capacity, read using Leafspy directly from BMS. I'm surprised the 30kWh went down so quickly. It is known to generate more heat than 24kWh when rapid charging, I guess this is why 40kWh get throttled.

 

Report of the 40kWh rapid charging issue is due to heat generated in the pack and then get software limited to reduce battery wear. I've been following the 40+ pages thread on SpeakEV. Unlike Nissan claimed, this problem surfaced before 40kWh Leaf's UK delivery, then confirmed by all '40 drivers who tried it. First charge good 50kW, <45min to get back to 80%; second charge ~35kW; all further rapid charges 22kW and 1:30hr wait to get back to 80%.

 

On ‎20‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 08:26, wyx087 said:

40+ page thread on this: https://speakev.com/threads/worried-about-leaf-2-rapid-charging-rate.101025/

10+ page thread on someone's experience trying to drive 640 miles in Leaf 40: https://speakev.com/threads/640-mile-run-in-a-40-kw-leaf.105657/

 

Leaf 60 next year will have thermal managed battery. This highlights the difficulties people will face when coming from ICE cars, the specification sheet need to tell you more on the battery tech, thermo management and battery charging speed for example. 

 

I even think a ideal time-to-do 600 miles figure will be useful for people to compare against ICE cars. This one figure will combine battery charging speed, car drag coefficient and battery thermo capability giving a simple comparison tool.

 

Active thermal management system (TMS) is essential for the battery, both heating and cooling.  My Leaf would have 20% more range at 10c compared to -5c, if the battery is able to heat up with pre-heating of the car, there will be more usable range. Similarly, cooling is very important for high current uses (continuous motorway driving with successive rapid charging, AKA long distance driving). TMS and rapid charging capabilities are 2 vital components to make a capable EV to replace ICE cars.

 

 

 

I'm still not sure on the Zoe in its current form as affordable car for 2 simple facts: majority sold are battery rental (you won't rent an engine in ICE cars); no DC rapid charging capability. The latter is very important for EV to function as an ICE replacement. This is the reason why Leaf 40kWh is getting such a bad press, they get software limited down to 22kW charging rate (incidentally, the maximum charge rate of Zoe R motors)

@wyx087 - Who are the SoftCo behind "LeafSpy"?

3 minutes ago, KenONeill said:

@wyx087 - Who are the SoftCo behind "LeafSpy"?

See here: http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/Leaf_Spy_Pro

 

DIY project by an enthusiastic driver. Data are read directly from CAN bus. The app focuses on the Leaf battery, but there are more to the app than battery health, it's like a less flashy version of OBDeleven.

 

There is a similar version for Zoe's: http://canze.fisch.lu/

4 hours ago, wyx087 said:

My 3 year old Leaf 24kWh still has 94% capacity, read using Leafspy directly from BMS. I'm surprised the 30kWh went down so quickly. It is known to generate more heat than 24kWh when rapid charging, I guess this is why 40kWh get throttled.   Report of the 40kWh rapid charging issue is due to heat generated in the pack and then get software limited to reduce battery wear. I've been following the 40+ pages thread on SpeakEV. Unlike Nissan claimed, this problem surfaced before 40kWh Leaf's UK delivery, then confirmed by all '40 drivers who tried it. First charge good 50kW, <45min to get back to 80%; second charge ~35kW; all further rapid charges 22kW and 1:30hr wait to get back to 80%.  Active thermal management system (TMS) is essential for the battery, both heating and cooling.  My Leaf would have 20% more range at 10c compared to -5c, if the battery is able to heat up with pre-heating of the car, there will be more usable range. Similarly, cooling is very important for high current uses (continuous motorway driving with successive rapid charging, AKA long distance driving). TMS and rapid charging capabilities are 2 vital components to make a capable EV to replace ICE cars.    

I'm still not sure on the Zoe in its current form as affordable car for 2 simple facts: majority sold are battery rental (you won't rent an engine in ICE cars); no DC rapid charging capability. The latter is very important for EV to function as an ICE replacement. This is the reason why Leaf 40kWh is getting such a bad press, they get software limited down to 22kW charging rate (incidentally, the maximum charge rate of Zoe R motors)

 

For me the issue, are perhaps for Nissan and prospective owners is that 94% of 24 kWh ie 22.5 kWh, giving a range of around 70 miles winter (?) and 100 miles summer is on the low side of acceptable for mainstream usage.  I was thinking more of going for the non Quick charge Zoe as the equation of paying an extra £1k and actually getting 10% less range, even in one could use the 43 kWh chargers instead of only the 22 kWh or 7 kWh ones was not enough of a trade off to me.  With the Zoe looking like it can do 10 to 20% more miles than the LEAF2 per kWh, it further pushes me to the Zoe.     What Car has the Q90 but with the Zoe R110 hp motor only available on non Q Zoe it is even more the case to go for, plus all the issues with Quck chargers now emerging.  22 kWh away and 7 kWh at home sounds fine to me.   

 

• The car Renault Zoe Q90 ZE40 Dynamique Nav
• Run by Rory White, new cars editor
• Why it's here With its improved range and keen pricing, is the latest Renault Zoe an electric car for the masses? We’re running one to find out
• Needs to Prove it can mix with the best fuel-powered cars and be a genuine alternative

---

List price £18,920 (after government plug-in car grant) Price as tested £19,970 Miles covered 5010 Official range 250 miles Real-world range 160 miles (summer); 130 miles (winter) Options fitted Quick charge function (£750),

 

https://www.whatcar.com/news/renault-zoe-long-term-test-review/

22 March 2018 – the Beast from the East

Our Zoe has been feeling the full force of the Beast from the East this month, throwing light (and snow) on just how useful its preheating feature is.

It’s nothing unique, of course; most electric cars come with applications for smartphones through which you can set the temperature remotely, giving you a toasty warm car that’s ice-free and ready to tackle the freezing commute. The Zoe actually has a button on its key card to commence preheating, too. Reviews editor Will Nightingale (who has his own Zoe that's much the same as ours) has found it extremely convenient when plugged into his 7kW home charging point.

 

 

But it isn’t quite so convenient when you don’t have a powerful wall charger at your disposal. Consumer editor Claire Evans had our Zoe as the ‘mini beast’ struck, but was only able to charge via a three-pin socket at home. With less power available, it meant the Zoe took far longer to preheat – so long, in fact, that Claire had to bring out the old-fashioned ice scraper to finish the job. Even more reason to sign up for a discounted wall charger as part of your Zoe purchase, then.

Edited 27 March, 20188 yr by lol-lol

@wyx087 - Cheers; It's more that my nasty suspicious mind wanted to know that the app was nothing to do with Nissan Motor than that I wanted the guy's name, address and kneecap size.

Watched an 18 Plate Renault Zoe brownish grey colour this morning leaving Glasgow and travelling to Stirling was something else really to watch and keep clear of if it all went wrong.

It was never actually getting any further on than the various other dark vehicles with no rear lights on.

It was pouring down, road condition and spray and risk of aqua planing was high but she managed very well sitting drafting 5 feet off people rear bumpers with DRL's on before going for undertakes without indicating to the left then back out behind the next possible victim.

 

That is the way to increase the cars range.

Edited 27 March, 20188 yr by AwaoffSki

1 hour ago, lol-lol said:

For me the issue, are perhaps for Nissan and prospective owners is that 94% of 24 kWh ie 22.5 kWh, giving a range of around 70 miles winter (?) and 100 miles summer is on the low side of acceptable for mainstream usage.  I was thinking more of going for the non Quick charge Zoe as the equation of paying an extra £1k and actually getting 10% less range, even in one could use the 43 kWh chargers instead of only the 22 kWh or 7 kWh ones was not enough of a trade off to me.  With the Zoe looking like it can do 10 to 20% more miles than the LEAF2 per kWh, it further pushes me to the Zoe.     What Car has the Q90 but with the Zoe R110 hp motor only available on non Q Zoe it is even more the case to go for, plus all the issues with Quck chargers now emerging.  22 kWh away and 7 kWh at home sounds fine to me.   

 

Unless you have another car to fall back onto (eg. a diesel motorway cruiser), and never venture away from home in the Zoe, rapid charging capability is really needed. Otherwise at 22kW you'll need to wait 1:30 to get back to 80% at each rest stops. 45min waits are borderline acceptable, more than 1 hour wait will get on your family's nerves.

 

Rapid charging is really important part of EV ownership if you want to drive it any distance. Or if your daily commute is near its limits and rain+wind demolishes your range.  Or if you've forgotten to charge. Or if you need to go somewhere unplanned.

 

A few times, on the way home, I've stopped at rapid for 10min to gain 25 miles additional range for evening use. The rapid charger gives me huge flexibility.

 

Remember, range is not the absolute measure of EV capability, as shown by the 40kWh Leaf "rapidgate" issue. For EV to really replace ICE cars, road-trip capability (charging speed, aerodynamics, efficiency) is more important.

More on the destructive nature of electric vehicles on the automotive industry -

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1115923_electric-cars-are-disasters-they-are-evil-says-hyundai-union-head

" Official range 250 miles Real-world range  130 miles (winter)  "

52% !

Is there a single petrol or diesel car with such an abysmal record ?

Yes, my 2003 1,328 cc Automatic Jimny.

Drinks like a UK MEP on expenses.

Only difference being i buy & pay for the fuel & pay the high VED because it is a dirty dirty thing, and i still love it. 

But then i love others as well, sometime at the same time, so a bit like a UKIP MEP in that way.

 

Not sure how i will cope with the electric buzz and short usage between rest stops,

but i will have a real car for actual getting places as well as a EV,

 there is the thing that as you get older you do often need less of some things, but more toilet visits.

Edited 28 March, 20188 yr by AwaoffSki

45 minutes ago, punyXpress said:

" Official range 250 miles Real-world range  130 miles (winter)  "

52% !

Is there a single petrol or diesel car with such an abysmal record ?

Official range is very easy on EV's due to constant temperature and the easy drive.

 

2 biggest factors destroy EV range: winter temperature and heater use.

Battery is similar to petrol/diesel engines, winter temperature affects efficient operation of the engine. My Octavia is officially rated to have 65mpg, but actual winter efficiency is around 50mpg. 24% efficiency/range loss just for the drop on intake temperature. This is worse on older ICE due to dumb cooling system. Battery cells operate best at 15-25c, they output less power at lower temperature, thus work harder and drains faster.

On ICE car, heater comes from wasted engine heat, meaning 60% of the energy you put in is otherwise lost. On EV, the battery and motor is efficient enough to not generate much wasted heat, so most of the energy you put into the car is transferred into kinetic movement energy. Extra energy is needed to heat the cabin. But not too much, 2-3kW for heating opposed to up to 90kW for moving the car in Renault R90's case.

 

It's good we get told real world winter range. This is the absolute worst-case scenario. This is the number you should use when considering whether an EV works for you. Official range is just a guideline like MPG you see on ICE cars.

A Petrol or diesel engine vehicle is not anything like 24% less fuel efficient because the Ambient Temp Air or Ground is 0*oC rather than 20*oC or even 30*oC.

Same route, same wind direction conditions etc, roads dry etc. journey over 100 miles say. Fuel with the same Energy / Octane.

Other factors might come into play, but actually cool air / oxygen can have a vehicle running more efficiently over a vehicle using energy to cool the Coolant / Oil.

Sorry, meant to say 24% less efficient compared to official lab testing results in case of Octavia 2.0 diesel (50mpg vs 65mpg). That's the two figures presented by PunyXpress.

 

Diesels can actually give you less than 50% range than lab test figures if you only drive short distances and the engine never reach optimum temperature in winter. (as Awaoffski rightfully pointed out on the Jimmy)

 

Unlike ICE, EV battery doesn't make a lot of excess heat, so cold winter temperatures do affect it no matter how much you drive. Another case for battery temperature management system.

No point looking at Skoda Official Lab Results unless you weigh 60kg, have no optional extras, and drive only inside a temperature controlled building on 

a rolling road with over inflated tyres and diesel mixed in the engine oil of a diesel maybe.  Allegedly. 

http://skoda.co.uk/pages/fuel-consumption-statement.aspx 

 

 

Edited 28 March, 20188 yr by AwaoffSki

@AwaoffSki - There is no point in arguing with Larndarners who've been drinking the EV Koolaid.

On 20/03/2018 at 20:37, AwaoffSki said:

Park it in the shade of the solar power canopy for charging the car and running the A/C / refrigeration of the power packs.

Or just drive a petroleum vehicle, it will be more efficient in use of natural resources, mined mineral.

It depends where your energy comes from.

We are getting to the stage of management of free energy supply being the major problem, including pumped hydro/home/municipal storage etc,  rather than burning anything to generate it.

Tesla has now moved into power generation from roof covering, replacing conventional tiles etc.......the owners of the old conventional power generators are gradually going to the wall as an investment.

Edited 30 March, 20188 yr by Ryeman

I expect Cambridge Analytica will be advising the coal powered generators in their anti environmental initiatives..........hint.