EU referendum/Brexit discussion - Part 1

[Scribbler]

From what I heard on the radio it's only on the agenda because of brexit because we would have vetoed it

Expect loads more things we would have vetoed being proposed because we've elected to leave.

 

Staying in an organisation where you continually opposing what the majority want and continually being a thorn in the side of the Eu is hardly a desirable position for our country though is it. They would have gathered sufficient leverage to make us capitulate on this issue and many others. But the very thought of an EU Armed Forces was preposterous to some of you and not even on the table. But now they have confirm our suspicions its suddenly because of brexit that its now likely to happen. As if its just suddenly occurred to them out of the blue. Its a bunch of old white men trying to posture and flex muscle its dangerous and we are well out of it.

Edited 14 September, 2016 by Scribbler

[theezenutz]

They said the same about Iraq. Before you were in need of appropriate head ware but now it's common knowledge that we all knew all along. Nothing new and not much will change, good job there are people who are not waiting to be accepted and are just going out and getting it done. David Icke is a classic example because while some of his stuff is well out there, unfortunately to some this means that everything he say's is make believe just like when he was talking about saville 20+ years ago.

 

It always comes out in the end and when it reaches a certain level it then becomes accepted in the mainstream. It's a version of the hundred Monkey theory.

[@Lee]

They said the same about Iraq. Before you were in need of appropriate head ware but now it's common knowledge that we all knew all along. Nothing new and not much will change, good job there are people who are not waiting to be accepted and are just going out and getting it done. David Icke is a classic example because while some of his stuff is well out there, unfortunately to some this means that everything he say's is make believe just like when he was talking about saville 20+ years ago.

 

It always comes out in the end and when it reaches a certain level it then becomes accepted in the mainstream. It's a version of the hundred Monkey theory.

[theezenutz]

Interestingly I came across this website whilst looking at The Hundredth Monkey Theory whilst reading it, this paragraph stood out to me it kind of reminded me of people on here. http://www.context.org/iclib/ic09/myers/

 

Instead of an example of the spontaneous transmission of ideas, I think the story of the Japanese monkeys is a good example of the propagation of a paradigm shift, as in Thomas Kuhn’s The Structure of Scientific Revolutions. The truly innovative points of view tend to come from those on the edge between youth and adulthood. The older generation continues to cling to the world view they grew up with. The new idea does not become universal until the older generation withdraws from power, and a younger generation matures within the new point of view.

 

Perhaps part of the reason we have different views on the World, maybe it's just a generational thing sort of like you can't teach an old dog new tricks?

Edited 14 September, 2016 by theezenutz

[gadgetman]

Staying in an organisation where you continually opposing what the majority want and continually being a thorn in the side of the Eu is hardly a desirable position for our country though is it. They would have gathered sufficient leverage to make us capitulate on this issue and many others. But the very thought of an EU Armed Forces was preposterous to some of you and not even on the table. But now they have confirm our suspicions its suddenly because of brexit that its now likely to happen. As if its just suddenly occurred to them out of the blue. Its a bunch of old white men trying to posture and flex muscle its dangerous and we are well out of it.

But you accept it would have been stopped by us, and any of the top 6 via their veto. It trumps everything and doesn't matter if the majority of the EU, all 26 other countries, the EU parliament or commission want it. A veto kills it dead. We had such power as part of the big/founding 6.

Thats what would have happened had we stayed. The UK would have vetoed EU army talk dead, and Germany and Belgium weren't keen on an EU army either.

Now we're excluded from involvement in such decisions, and hence have effectively lost our power of veto, they'll be pushing a lot of stuff through which ultimately we may be forced to accept as part of our EU exit and any continued single market access.

[@Lee]

But you accept it would have been stopped by us, and any of the top 6 via their veto. It trumps everything and doesn't matter if the majority of the EU, all 26 other countries, the EU parliament or commission want it. A veto kills it dead. We had such power as part of the big/founding 6.

Thats what would have happened had we stayed. The UK would have vetoed EU army talk dead, and Germany and Belgium weren't keen on an EU army either.

Now we're excluded from involvement in such decisions, and hence have effectively lost our power of veto, they'll be pushing a lot of stuff through which ultimately we may be forced to accept as part of our EU exit and any continued single market access.

you're floggin' a dead horse, mate. Still, at least they got their country/ sovereignty/ £350M/  red bus back eh lol

[Scribbler]

But you accept it would have been stopped by us, and any of the top 6 via their veto. It trumps everything and doesn't matter if the majority of the EU, all 26 other countries, the EU parliament or commission want it. A veto kills it dead. We had such power as part of the big/founding 6.

Thats what would have happened had we stayed. The UK would have vetoed EU army talk dead, and Germany and Belgium weren't keen on an EU army either.

Now we're excluded from involvement in such decisions, and hence have effectively lost our power of veto, they'll be pushing a lot of stuff through which ultimately we may be forced to accept as part of our EU exit and any continued single market access.

 

I accept that with a credible centre or right of centre bias government and in our current strong position that we would have continued to veto the development of an EU armed forces. The same can't be said when the EU had bled us dry so we can't support our own armed forces and we get a leftist liberal government only to happy to 'integrate'.

What your saying is that we should have continued to pay the second highest amount of contributions to improve the lives of others in the EU whilst in return we get the ability to stop them carrying out crazy nonsense. What are we the EU's thought police the voice of reason that we have to pay for?

 

I had a better idea and luckily the majority of the people of our great nation agreed with me. The fiscal position has been proven correct, the moral position justified and common sense has been restored. The EU are doomed and were regardless of the result. 

Edited 14 September, 2016 by Scribbler

[moley]

French air traffic controllers on strike again. Makes you proud to be European.

[trundlenut]

I accept that with a credible centre or right of centre bias government and in our current strong position that we would have continued to veto the development of an EU armed forces. The same can't be said when the EU had bled us dry so we can't support our own armed forces and we get a leftist liberal government only to happy to 'integrate'.

What your saying is that we should have continued to pay the second highest amount of contributions to improve the lives of others in the EU whilst in return we get the ability to stop them carrying out crazy nonsense. What are we the EU's thought police the voice of reason that we have to pay for?

I had a better idea and luckily the majority of the people of our great nation agreed with me. The fiscal position has been proven correct, the moral position justified and common sense has been restored. The EU are doomed and were regardless of the result.

The EU is such a large thing economically speaking that in or out of the EU the only way we won't be screwed is if we've already burnt our economy to the ground.

[Ootohere]

Obviously the Economies of France & Italy are in a bit of trouble but the IMF are not being too vocal on that.

Then Germany has to sort out labour issues and the strength of the unions, and the dishonesty of one of there more famous manufacturers.

[gadgetman]

The EU is such a large thing economically speaking that in or out of the EU the only way we won't be screwed is if we've already burnt our economy to the ground.

Some are going to be pretty peeved when the outcome is no say in Europe but having to still pay in like Norway and Switzerland. Which is basically what Davis has admitted is the only option they have to avoid WTO tariffs which would kill any business relying on exporting to the EU.

[trundlenut]

Some are going to be pretty peeved when the outcome is no say in Europe but having to still pay in like Norway and Switzerland. Which is basically what Davis has admitted is the only option they have to avoid WTO tariffs which would kill any business relying on exporting to the EU.

And completely kill any exporting of services as they would just stop.

[cheezemonkhai]

And completely kill many EU companies as we import 100bn more than we export.

Just go to WTO rules, we would take enough in tax to give tax breaks to affected industies.

Is the rest of the world not in the EU all screwed?

Is everyone in the EU all having a great time (Greece, italy, france)

Reuniting cyprus... How. Let turkey in, then say we're the USE?

They talk garbage.

As for finance centres, the uk can trade global currencies, including that of china.

Hk is getting politically messy.

Junker's just talking about to how spend more and not addressing that black hole.

We are better off out. The other liberal countries are already complaining of french protectionism and german order taking over.

I don't think the even more europe will work this time.

One german publication said throw it away and start again, minus the freeloaders and central european state.

[moley]

And completely kill many EU companies as we import 100bn more than we export.

Spot on.

German, French and Italian cars at +10% selling them in the UK, that's going to do their industries a power of good. Not that some of those countries governments already prop up those industries.

I read that Airbus had scheduled to build 27 A380's a year, currently going to build 12 in the next 3 years due to a lack of orders.

[gadgetman]

Spot on.

German, French and Italian cars at +10% selling them in the UK, that's going to do their industries a power of good. Not that some of those countries governments already prop up those industries.

I read that Airbus had scheduled to build 27 A380's a year, currently going to build 12 in the next 3 years due to a lack of orders.

Because it's too expensive to buy and you can buy smaller and faster. That and global drop in air travel.

[lol-lol]

Spot on.

German, French and Italian cars at +10% selling them in the UK, that's going to do their industries a power of good. Not that some of those countries governments already prop up those industries.

I read that Airbus had scheduled to build 27 A380's a year, currently going to build 12 in the next 3 years due to a lack of orders.

 

The can choose any customs duty rate between zero and the WTO maximum rate for each of the 5,000 or so customs commodity codes at the first 6 digits as laid out in the last WTO round that addresses this ie the Uruguay round in the mid 90s which ran until 2004 I recall to implement it 10 year sliding scale and the Doha round did not vary this.

 

Many of the BREXITEERS propose we go to zero on almost everything and only preserve some Anti-Dumping measures like for Fasteners, steel etc and their is a strong argument for that ie import it and hope to pick up VAT/GST on the sale after import.

 

The EU will simply be driven to apply their normal rates ie 10% for cars, 12% for most textiles, 14% for video equipment etc going from the UK until one day, many years after the actual BREXIT has occurred, and a EU-UK BREXIT deal is finally thrashed out with all its clauses on the 5,000 customs tariffs and all the associated sections on financial services, access conditions for these to the EU market, typically taking 4 to 9 to years so would come in 2023 to 2028.  UK companies doing the importing can take the view to absorb what they can of the combination of customs tariffs and affect of the much lower exchange rate.  Usually results in the importer obtaining lower spec goods to reduce the import tax based value as occurs in many countries.

 

Hectic times ahead and despite it being some two and a half years away already looking at the resources ie IT systems and manpower to cope with doing exports and import entries which look like adding about 80% to the existing systems of doing customs entries for the Rest of the World. Should add a many millions of pounds to the industry of doing this work and companies like my own are investing heavily in the UK to prepare for day this comes.             

[lol-lol]

Because it's too expensive to buy and you can buy smaller and faster. That and global drop in air travel.

 

But its costs per kilo of freight is amongst the lowest but the dithering with the schemes like adding the Third Runway, which the A380 would use, meaning less actual flights needed it carry more freight and people.  I am at Schiphol at the moment and they have 5 runways already and are looking to add a sixth.  Charles de Gaul and Frankfurt are also surging ahead with more capacity and LHR is being left behind.  A350s and Boeing 787 have their plus points but the A380 is about 11% cheaper than the average for freight costs due to its economy of scale and hence not having more of them landing at Heathrow means UK export and import costs are proportional higher.      

[theezenutz]

How strange, I just flew back from Schiphol this weekend the airport is huge.

[lol-lol]

I love it where the planes go over the road on a bridge. Awesome.

[Ootohere]

& here are posts on the A380 just as Airbus get bad news like Singapore Airways not renewing their lease on the first A830.

Times move on and bigger planes are not always that economic when it comes to passengers and filling seats.

Freight might be another matter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_A380

Not so good maybe for some Airbus employees in countries currently in the EU.

Edited 15 September, 2016 by GoneOffSKi

[cheezemonkhai]

I have to say I like the A380, as you don't have to be quite so squashed in.

The thing however is for the A380 to work, you really to need to just use them on hub to hub flights, with smaller planes distributing the groups to regions.

I do find it funny that some people are suggesting that the currently protectionist EU model is a good thing and the EU are suggesting it should get more so.

I think it's odd the EU has appointed people who have been hostile to us before to negotiate out exit.

I also think we should state we're happy with WTO, as it's a much stronger negotiating position.

Also as I've said, Europe loses more.

We could support our farmers, our steel or other industries.

Tenders could require the skills to be UK based or favour UK companies.

We could impose tariffs on farm goods supported by the CAP or other trade assistance.

There is also plenty of state aid going on in the EU, it's just other countries play the rules.

Not much reported is the EU arguments with Poland over the rule of law, Hungary over borders, Austria over borders and generally a lot of the EU.

Maybe they should throw it away, have restart, with a smaller block and as a trade area (As per the EEA).

They would need some way to make there was a rule that said no further integration and a vote was required by the public in each state to increase scope.

However as things stand, no matter how much the French style bureaucracy says it's not dying, it is.

Stand on the titanic and act like it's not going down mr Junker, it's the best way.

[trundlenut]

I have to say I like the A380, as you don't have to be quite so squashed in.

The thing however is for the A380 to work, you really to need to just use them on hub to hub flights, with smaller planes distributing the groups to regions.

I do find it funny that some people are suggesting that the currently protectionist EU model is a good thing and the EU are suggesting it should get more so.

I think it's odd the EU has appointed people who have been hostile to us before to negotiate out exit.

I also think we should state we're happy with WTO, as it's a much stronger negotiating position.

Also as I've said, Europe loses more.

We could support our farmers, our steel or other industries.

Tenders could require the skills to be UK based or favour UK companies.

We could impose tariffs on farm goods supported by the CAP or other trade assistance.

There is also plenty of state aid going on in the EU, it's just other countries play the rules.

Not much reported is the EU arguments with Poland over the rule of law, Hungary over borders, Austria over borders and generally a lot of the EU.

Maybe they should throw it away, have restart, with a smaller block and as a trade area (As per the EEA).

They would need some way to make there was a rule that said no further integration and a vote was required by the public in each state to increase scope.

However as things stand, no matter how much the French style bureaucracy says it's not dying, it is.

Stand on the titanic and act like it's not going down mr Junker, it's the best way.

WTO covers trade in goods, that is bad for us.

[lol-lol]

WTO covers trade in goods, that is bad for us.

Bad for UK citizens as they would end up paying the customs duty. Good for UK

government as they collect the custom duty and blame EU for not playing ball. Win-win for UK government loose-loose for UK citizens.

[trundlenut]

Bad for UK citizens as they would end up paying the customs duty. Good for UK

government as they collect the custom duty and blame EU for not playing ball. Win-win for UK government loose-loose for UK citizens.

And it doesn't cover services.

[@Lee]

And it doesn't cover services.

the women who offer me 'services' don't pay tax anyway lol