EU referendum/Brexit discussion - Part 2

[Ootohere]

These different Tory factions need to wear different shirts so people know what group they are members of and what they are supporting.

European Research Group etc.

 

White,

Blue / white, stripe,

wing collar, 

and maybe even black or brown shirts will be back in fashion.

[Ryeman]

Just now, AwaoffSki said:

These different Tory factions need to wear different shirts so people know what group they are members of and what they are supporting.

European Research Group etc.

 

White,

Blue / white, stripe,

wing collar, 

and maybe even black or brown shirts will be back in fashion.

......and along the lines of the Karma Sutra I guess?

[skomaz]

4 hours ago, lol-lol said:

 

For the sake of the massive death toll

 

 

You realise those initial '40,000 death toll' reports have been largely discredited now don't you...???

[lol-lol]

1 hour ago, skomaz said:

 

You realise those initial '40,000 death toll' reports have been largely discredited now don't you...???

 

National Audit Office report...   https://www.nao.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Air-quality.pdf

 

It is tens of thousands per year in the UK for PMs and NOX which ever way you cut it according to the NAO, Royal College of Physicians, COMEAP, millions worldwide  according to World Health Organisation.

There are more cars on our roads now than a few years ago and in many cases ie for NOX, they are worse than the cars of 10 years ago. 

 

--------------------------------------------------

Effects of poor air quality
Area of risk Effects
Health Fine particulate matter (PM2.5) is estimated by the Committee on the Medical Effects of Air Pollutants (COMEAP) to have contributed to an equivalent of 29,000 deaths in 2008, reducing average life expectancy by six months. The Royal College of Physicians estimates that the total burden of outdoor air pollution is the equivalent of 40,000 deaths annually. There is not a consensus among experts on a quantified estimate of the mortality impact of nitrogen dioxide (NO2) alone. COMEAP advises that the available evidence and methods do not allow them to make a reliable assessment of the size of the effect which is attributable to NO2 itself.

 

[skomaz]

6 hours ago, lol-lol said:

 

National Audit Office report...   https://www.nao.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Air-quality.pdf

 

It is tens of thousands per year in the UK for PMs and NOX which ever way you cut it according to the NAO, Royal College of Physicians, COMEAP, millions worldwide  according to World Health Organisation.

There are more cars on our roads now than a few years ago and in many cases ie for NOX, they are worse than the cars of 10 years ago. 

 

--------------------------------------------------

Effects of poor air quality
Area of risk Effects
Health Fine particulate matter (PM2.5) is estimated by the Committee on the Medical Effects of Air Pollutants (COMEAP) to have contributed to an equivalent of 29,000 deaths in 2008, reducing average life expectancy by six months. The Royal College of Physicians estimates that the total burden of outdoor air pollution is the equivalent of 40,000 deaths annually. There is not a consensus among experts on a quantified estimate of the mortality impact of nitrogen dioxide (NO2) alone. COMEAP advises that the available evidence and methods do not allow them to make a reliable assessment of the size of the effect which is attributable to NO2 itself.

 

 

Those figures are for outdoor air pollution - ie ALL pollution from ALL producers, not just diesel cars.  As I said they have been largely discredited in relation to diesel...

[lol-lol]

5 minutes ago, skomaz said:

 

Those figures are for outdoor air pollution - ie ALL pollution from ALL producers, not just diesel cars.  As I said they have been largely discredited in relation to diesel...

 

Source(s) please.

 

To compare to the WHO, NAO sources.  

[moley]

6 hours ago, lol-lol said:

 

National Audit Office report...   https://www.nao.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Air-quality.pdf

 

It is tens of thousands per year in the UK for PMs and NOX which ever way you cut it according to the NAO, Royal College of Physicians, COMEAP, millions worldwide  according to World Health Organisation.

There are more cars on our roads now than a few years ago and in many cases ie for NOX, they are worse than the cars of 10 years ago. 

 

--------------------------------------------------

Effects of poor air quality
Area of risk Effects
Health Fine particulate matter (PM2.5) is estimated by the Committee on the Medical Effects of Air Pollutants (COMEAP) to have contributed to an equivalent of 29,000 deaths in 2008, reducing average life expectancy by six months. The Royal College of Physicians estimates that the total burden of outdoor air pollution is the equivalent of 40,000 deaths annually. There is not a consensus among experts on a quantified estimate of the mortality impact of nitrogen dioxide (NO2) alone. COMEAP advises that the available evidence and methods do not allow them to make a reliable assessment of the size of the effect which is attributable to NO2 itself.

 

This would suggest that toxin levels are reducing on cars and not increasing. Of course these are the standards that the EU has laid down and not what real world driving conditions emit. The number of cars on registered to be on the roads of the UK has increased by about 4% over the last 10 years.

Quote

As the worst performing petrol car tested to date, the Focus 1.0 EcoBoost was ranked “E”, which means it emitted between 250 and 500 milligrams per kilometre (mg/km) of NOx, compared with the current Euro 6 limit of 60mg/km for petrol cars.

Still waiting to see a death certificate stating death from diesel fumes.

The EU still allows people to smoke while walking down the street knowing the risks of inhaling second hand smoke. 80,000 deaths in the UK attribute to smoking . When are the EU going to tackle this problem?

[@Lee]

5 minutes ago, moley said:

 

The EU still allows people to smoke while walking down the street knowing the risks of inhaling second hand smoke. 80,000 deaths in the UK attribute to smoking . When are the EU going to tackle this problem?

I've never seen a petrol/ diesel pump with a picture of diseased lungs either. Yet there they are on fag packets with a Govt. Health warning and high taxes. 

[moley]

1 minute ago, Lee01 said:

I've never seen a petrol/ diesel pump with a picture of diseased lungs either. Yet there they are on fag packets with a Govt. Health warning and high taxes. 

Fully agree with you, but I and everyone else can breath in other peoples smoke in the street and I don't think that's right.

[lol-lol]

4 minutes ago, moley said:

This would suggest that toxin levels are reducing on cars and not increasing. Of course these are the standards that the EU has laid down and not what real world driving conditions emit. The number of cars on registered to be on the roads of the UK has increased by about 4% over the last 10 years.  Still waiting to see a death certificate stating death from diesel fumes.  The EU still allows people to smoke while walking down the street knowing the risks of inhaling second hand smoke. 80,000 deaths in the UK attribute to smoking . When are the EU going to tackle this problem?

 

You not been reading the news?

The emissions for the lab test senario has been shown to be flawed and hence the move to real world testing which has shown that cars NOX and PM emission can be of the order of ten times worse than what is shown in the graph above.

 Odd graph too, PM from petrol is virtually no existent, hurray for petrol.    

Birmingham and other big cities will launch their restrictions for polluting diesel cars later this year and we should expect restrictions to apply to them in entering the cities in the next year or two, either large fees ie or outright bans for Euro 4 and then Euro 5 shortly after.  Taxis will only be allowed to be fully EV or hybrid, buses will be only allowed to be replace with clear gas ones or hybrid. Deliver vehicle SCR fitted or restricted to Out of Hours deliveries.

Private buyers and companies are changing their buying habits, petrols now out sell wiesels by quite a percentage.  In logistics we are looking for every opportunity, here in the UK and over the world, to use zero emission vehicles in large cities. 

 

Quite happy to see diesels and smoking restricted to non-urban areas.  Would be better for the common good.  

 

 

[@Lee]

Quote

New party aiming to stop Brexit launches tour of UK's towns and universities

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/new-party-aiming-to-stop-brexit-launches-tour-of-uks-towns-and-univeristies-a3756096.html

[skomaz]

49 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

Source(s) please.

 

To compare to the WHO, NAO sources.  

 

The 40,000 figure is one that has been made up - it's equivalent to a Potential loss of life expectancy of 3 DAYS due to ALL pollution (if someone happens to be susceptible) that has then been conveniently multiplied by population numbers etc. to derive a figure worthy of a headline...

 

So it is the sum of lots of 3 days added together and then divided by an average life expectancy that gives a POSSIBLE number pseudo 'lives lost' (it's not ACTUAL real lives lost mind!) made up of an artificial accumulation of many thousands of POTENTIAL 3 days lost per person.

 

No where is it an ACTUAL, or RELIABLE figure - it's merely fag packet statistics...

 

But then you never read the detail do you (which is rather scary for someone in your line of work!)

 

https://unearthed.greenpeace.org/2017/03/06/air-pollution-cause-40000-deaths-every-year-fact-check-linked/

[moley]

37 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

 

You not been reading the news?

The emissions for the lab test senario has been shown to be flawed and hence the move to real world testing which has shown that cars NOX and PM emission can be of the order of ten times worse than what is shown in the graph above.

That is what I said:

Quote

53 minutes ago, moley said:

Of course these are the standards that the EU has laid down and not what real world driving conditions emit.

 

 Odd graph too, PM from petrol is virtually no existent, hurray for petrol.    

You have just contradicted yourself, the graph is EU standards and not real world driving, so don't get too cheery about petrol engines 

Birmingham and other big cities will launch their restrictions for polluting diesel cars later this year and we should expect restrictions to apply to them in entering the cities in the next year or two, either large fees ie or outright bans for Euro 4 and then Euro 5 shortly after.  Taxis will only be allowed to be fully EV or hybrid, buses will be only allowed to be replace with clear gas ones or hybrid. Deliver vehicle SCR fitted or restricted to Out of Hours deliveries.

Private buyers and companies are changing their buying habits, petrols now out sell wiesels by quite a percentage.  In logistics we are looking for every opportunity, here in the UK and over the world, to use zero emission vehicles in large cities. 

How many non diesel lorries are there on the roads?

Quite happy to see diesels  and smoking restricted to non-urban areas.  Would be better for the common good.  

 

 

 

[lol-lol]

14 hours ago, skomaz said:

 

The 40,000 figure is one that has been made up - it's equivalent to a Potential loss of life expectancy of 3 DAYS due to ALL pollution (if someone happens to be susceptible) that has then been conveniently multiplied by population numbers etc. to derive a figure worthy of a headline...

So it is the sum of lots of 3 days added together and then divided by an average life expectancy that gives a POSSIBLE number pseudo 'lives lost' (it's not ACTUAL real lives lost mind!) made up of an artificial accumulation of many thousands of POTENTIAL 3 days lost per person.

No where is it an ACTUAL, or RELIABLE figure - it's merely fag packet statistics...

But then you never read the detail do you (which is rather scary for someone in your line of work!)

https://unearthed.greenpeace.org/2017/03/06/air-pollution-cause-40000-deaths-every-year-fact-check-linked/

 

I am aware it is actually better to talk of shortening of life rather than premature death so here are the figures by that metric....

In some ways it is even more scary put this way ie 340,000 years of life rather than premature deaths...

===========================================================================================================

To understand what this means, it is more accurate to speak in terms of lives shortened, rather than deaths caused.  After all, Anthony Frew, a professor in respiratory medicine expert at the Brighton and Sussex Medical School points out: “People don’t live forever. If you stop them dying, you don’t prevent their death, you postpone it.”    But while a car crash can be said to be the exclusive cause of an individual’s death, nobody is dying purely as a result of air pollution.  It could well have had a significant impact on somebody who died from heart disease, but it’s likely that other factors, such as diet or exercise, played a part too.  Instead, the toxic pollutants in our air affect everybody a little bit, and some people – the young, elderly and those with respiratory and cardiac conditions – significantly more.

Hence Fintan Hurley, lead author on  the report, says that ”the best single number” in the report is not 29,000 deaths but 340,000 years.

These are years lost across the whole of the population — an average of three days per person.

If this loss of life – which is purely the result of PM pollution – is then collected together, it can be broken down and applied to different smaller groups of people.

So it is equivalent to:

• 569,000 people who lost half a year of life
• or 191,000 people who died from cardiovascular causes, linked to air pollution
• or 29,000 people who lost 11 and a half years of life. It is these deaths that are said to be “attributable”.

Hurley explains: “340,000 years of life lost is equivalent to 29,000 deaths at typical ages… Just remember that many more people are affected in reality.”  

============================================================================================================================================

[lol-lol]

14 hours ago, moley said:

Odd graph too, PM from petrol is virtually no existent, hurray for petrol.    

You have just contradicted yourself, the graph is EU standards and not real world driving, so don't get too cheery about petrol engines 

 

My points are that the graph is very misleading, mainly because it puts several types of pollutants on the same bar chart. (I do realise it is the historic and current EURO standards).

 

Over the last decade most concerned people have became less concerned with CO2 and much more concerned with NOX and PMs, for which diesels are much worse offenders than petrol cars.

The graph makes NOX look small compared to CO even but it, and PMs have been identified as the big killers.

 

I would like to see the real world figures for more petrol cars as they seem to be getting little press as it is taken by the results which show that most diesel cars are far worse in the real world than they appeared in the lab test.       

The Euro 5 VAG-Skoda engine did not come our very well.......

Where as the Renault engine are much better.

The early Ford petrols were quite poor but seem to have got better.  

This is important for BREXIT as the Ford engines are made in Britian but the VAG-Skoda engines, as with nearly all the rest of the car are produced in mainland Europe.  

 

http://equaindex.com/equa-air-quality-index/

 

 

 

Skoda	Octavia	Diesel	2014	1.6	104	FWD	2	Manual	Euro 5	E
Skoda	Octavia	Diesel	2014	1.6	108	FWD	2	Manual	Euro 5	C

 

Dacia

Sandero

Petrol

2014

0.9

89

FWD

2

Manual

Euro 5

A+

 

Ford	Fiesta	Petrol	2013	1.0	99	FWD	2	Manual	Euro 5	D
Ford	Fiesta	Petrol	2013	1.0	123	FWD	2	Manual	Euro 5	D
Ford	Fiesta	Petrol	2013	1.6	180	FWD	2	Manual	Euro 5	A+
Ford	Fiesta	Petrol	2015	1.2	81	FWD	2	Manual	Euro 6	B
Ford	Fiesta	Petrol	2016	1.0	99	FWD	2	Manual	Euro 6	A+

Edited 4 February, 2018 by lol-lol

[skomaz]

Lol-Lol - it's still the same numbers - just presented in a different way - the basis for the calculation is still the same...   so nothings changed - is is still fag packet statistics, not an ACTUAL, or RELIABLE figure...

 

I have nearly 30 years experience in highways and transport planning, a large proportion of which has involved environmental coordination and assessments, including of air quality, initially completing assessments myself using 'standard, approved' methodologies and subsequently reviewing assessments undertaken air quality experts.

 

Believe what you will but I prefer to believe scientifically proven, empirical, peer reviewed and unequivocal evidence (Look the meanings of those words up if you are unsure??) 

 

Edit - I forgot to add - having seen what my grandparents and dad went through in old age as a result of arthritis, dementia, parkinsons and cancer I'll be glad of 3 days loss of life to reduce my suffering in a few years!

Edited 4 February, 2018 by skomaz

[moley]

2 hours ago, lol-lol said:

 

My points are that the graph is very misleading, mainly because it puts several types of pollutants on the same bar chart. (I do realise it is the historic and current EURO standards).

 

Over the last decade most concerned people have became less concerned with CO2 and much more concerned with NOX and PMs, for which diesels are much worse offenders than petrol cars.

The graph makes NOX look small compared to CO even but it, and PMs have been identified as the big killers.

 

I would like to see the real world figures for more petrol cars as they seem to be getting little press as it is taken by the results which show that most diesel cars are far worse in the real world than they appeared in the lab test.       

The Euro 5 VAG-Skoda engine did not come our very well.......

Where as the Renault engine are much better.

The early Ford petrols were quite poor but seem to have got better.  

This is important for BREXIT as the Ford engines are made in Britian but the VAG-Skoda engines, as with nearly all the rest of the car are produced in mainland Europe.  

 

http://equaindex.com/equa-air-quality-index/

 

 

 

Skoda	Octavia	Diesel	2014	1.6	104	FWD	2	Manual	Euro 5	E
Skoda	Octavia	Diesel	2014	1.6	108	FWD	2	Manual	Euro 5	C

 

Dacia

Sandero

Petrol

2014

0.9

89

FWD

2

Manual

Euro 5

A+

 

Ford	Fiesta	Petrol	2013	1.0	99	FWD	2	Manual	Euro 5	D
Ford	Fiesta	Petrol	2013	1.0	123	FWD	2	Manual	Euro 5	D
Ford	Fiesta	Petrol	2013	1.6	180	FWD	2	Manual	Euro 5	A+
Ford	Fiesta	Petrol	2015	1.2	81	FWD	2	Manual	Euro 6	B
Ford	Fiesta	Petrol	2016	1.0	99	FWD	2	Manual	Euro 6	A+

Drifting away from the thread, but you are not comparing eggs with eggs.

In the same vain look how bad the Renault engine is. I know you love Renaults, but they are as good and bad as all manufactures

Skoda

Octavia

Petrol

2013

1.2

104

FWD

2

Manual

Euro 5

A+

 

Renault

Megane

Diesel

2014

1.5

108

FWD

2

Manual

Euro 5

H

 

From last May:          https:/www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/may/26/extremely-polluting-nissan-and-renault-diesel-cars-still-on-sale-data-reveals

 

Extremely polluting Nissan and Renault diesel cars still on sale, data reveals

 

[lol-lol]

34 minutes ago, moley said:

Drifting away from the thread, but you are not comparing eggs with eggs.

In the same vain look how bad the Renault engine is. I know you love Renaults, but they are as good and bad as all manufactures

Skoda

Octavia

Petrol

2013

1.2

104

FWD

2

Manual

Euro 5

A+

 

Renault

Megane

Diesel

2014

1.5

108

FWD

2

Manual

Euro 5

H

 

From last May:          https:/www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/may/26/extremely-polluting-nissan-and-renault-diesel-cars-still-on-sale-data-reveals

 

Extremely polluting Nissan and Renault diesel cars still on sale, data reveals

 

 

Sooner all the non conforming diesel engine are barred the better whether they are Audi, BMW, Citreon, Dacia, Ford, GM-PSA, Hyundai, Jaguar, Land Rover, Kia, Mercedes, SEAT, Skoda, VW etc.  

 

[Ootohere]

We are now well away from BREXIT, & HARD BREXITEERS.

 

What about what a great Business Person Jacob Rees-Mogg MP is, 

http://somersetcm.com 

how well his company does, how many Billions it manages for others, how wealthy it makes so many people so means JRM is a fantastic person to be the chancellor. he will then be working for the hard working people, all in this together. 

Man of the People, him and Boris, only think of the population and their best interests, not just making their supporters better off. 

Edited 4 February, 2018 by AwaoffSki

[lol-lol]

2 hours ago, skomaz said:

Lol-Lol - it's still the same numbers - just presented in a different way - the basis for the calculation is still the same...   so nothings changed - is is still fag packet statistics, not an ACTUAL, or RELIABLE figure...

I have nearly 30 years experience in highways and transport planning, a large proportion of which has involved environmental coordination and assessments, including of air quality, initially completing assessments myself using 'standard, approved' methodologies and subsequently reviewing assessments undertaken air quality experts.

Believe what you will but I prefer to believe scientifically proven, empirical, peer reviewed and unequivocal evidence (Look the meanings of those words up if you are unsure??) 

Edit - I forgot to add - having seen what my grandparents and dad went through in old age as a result of arthritis, dementia, parkinsons and cancer I'll be glad of 3 days loss of life to reduce my suffering in a few years!

 

Which ever way you cut it when the number of death, life shortening etc dwarfs death and accidents then world bodies, national governments and local governance, eventually, get off their ass and do something as with Sheffield....

 

https://www.sheffield.gov.uk/home/pollution-nuisance/low-emission-zone.html

 

We have undertaken a study into whether a Low Emission Zone (LEZ) should be introduced in Sheffield.  The aim of the LEZ would be to help our partners and us to comply with European Union Air Quality standards for NO₂ and PM₁₀. This would be by tackling the main traffic-related emissions which are contributing to the current air quality problems in the Sheffield area.  The aim of the LEZ study was to work out the potential costs, benefits, air quality impacts, emissions reductions and timescales for bringing about a LEZ in Sheffield......

Recommendations

These are the recommendations from the study only (they are not our policy):

1. Minimum NOx emission standard (EURO VI) for buses
2. Maximum NOx emissions rate levels for:
   • Taxis – affecting the ‘worst polluting’ 50% of the current fleet
   • Light Goods Vehicles (LGV < 3.5T) – affecting the ‘worst polluting’ 15% of the current fleet
   • Other Goods Vehicles (OGV > 3.5T) – affecting the ‘worst polluting’ 10% of the current fleet
3. Measures to encourage 10% of private car users to switch from diesel back to petrol
4. 5% reduction in emissions from both petrol and diesel private cars, by reducing car use, encouraging more-efficient driving styles and promoting travelling at different times....

  Aims.....

 

LEZ Strategy Objective:

o Traffic just tackling its ‘fair share’ rather than being expected to solve problems caused by other emission sectors

o Focus on NOx (EU fines), but PM10 also important (health impacts)

 

Why we need an LEZ Strategy NO2 annual mean concentration predicted to exceed the EU’s 40 µg/m3 limit for NO2 at (at least) 40 locations in Sheffield in 2015 Data from Strategy Tool shows that a MINIMUM of 7 years of fleet renewal alone would be required to achieve compliance with this NO2 limit at all of these sites, assuming: o there is no significant net traffic growth over this period o all the other non-traffic sources of NO2 contribute their corresponding ‘fair share’ of the required reduction; and o Euro 6/Euro VI performance is as expected and does not deteriorate over time Conclusion: further action is required to speed up the reduction in traffic emissions, particularly NOX /NO2

 

 

[skomaz]

5 hours ago, lol-lol said:

 

Which ever way you cut it when the number of death, life shortening etc dwarfs death and accidents then world bodies, national governments and local governance, eventually, get off their ass and do something as with Sheffield....

 

https://www.sheffield.gov.uk/home/pollution-nuisance/low-emission-zone.html

 

We have undertaken a study into whether a Low Emission Zone (LEZ) should be introduced in Sheffield.  The aim of the LEZ would be to help our partners and us to comply with European Union Air Quality standards for NO₂ and PM₁₀. This would be by tackling the main traffic-related emissions which are contributing to the current air quality problems in the Sheffield area.  The aim of the LEZ study was to work out the potential costs, benefits, air quality impacts, emissions reductions and timescales for bringing about a LEZ in Sheffield......

Recommendations

These are the recommendations from the study only (they are not our policy):

1. Minimum NOx emission standard (EURO VI) for buses
2. Maximum NOx emissions rate levels for:
   • Taxis – affecting the ‘worst polluting’ 50% of the current fleet
   • Light Goods Vehicles (LGV < 3.5T) – affecting the ‘worst polluting’ 15% of the current fleet
   • Other Goods Vehicles (OGV > 3.5T) – affecting the ‘worst polluting’ 10% of the current fleet
3. Measures to encourage 10% of private car users to switch from diesel back to petrol
4. 5% reduction in emissions from both petrol and diesel private cars, by reducing car use, encouraging more-efficient driving styles and promoting travelling at different times....

  Aims.....

 

LEZ Strategy Objective:

o Traffic just tackling its ‘fair share’ rather than being expected to solve problems caused by other emission sectors

o Focus on NOx (EU fines), but PM10 also important (health impacts)

 

Why we need an LEZ Strategy NO2 annual mean concentration predicted to exceed the EU’s 40 µg/m3 limit for NO2 at (at least) 40 locations in Sheffield in 2015 Data from Strategy Tool shows that a MINIMUM of 7 years of fleet renewal alone would be required to achieve compliance with this NO2 limit at all of these sites, assuming: o there is no significant net traffic growth over this period o all the other non-traffic sources of NO2 contribute their corresponding ‘fair share’ of the required reduction; and o Euro 6/Euro VI performance is as expected and does not deteriorate over time Conclusion: further action is required to speed up the reduction in traffic emissions, particularly NOX /NO2

 

 

 

I see you've seen where I'm from...

Do you know much about the AQMA in Sheffield?

Do you know what the worst polluted area is and why (it has nothing to do with roads by the way)?

Do you know why the AQMA covers the whole city rather than just the areas it needs to (it's nothing to do with the whole city suffering from air pollution by the way)?

Do you know how the study was undertaken and why they only made 'recommendations' (or the way the models were built and assessed)?

Or any of the people involved and the reactions of those impacted by the recommendations?

Or how they may be taken forward and what that is likely to result in for the city?

 

Thought not...   but I do...

 

Go do some more internet searches and try finding something definitive re deaths due to diesel air pollution (PM's are carcinogenic by the way - that would be a good start for you) as opposed to trying to divert from the original discussion re Air Quality deaths...   either that or get back in your box and keep schtum!

 

Have a nice evening!

[lol-lol]

The premature deaths and life shortening of diesels is now well established and we are in the action phase to create Low Emission Zones in major cities, even smaller ones like Sheffield but Birmingham and London where the figures are in the hundred and thousand for premature deaths and shortened lives the councils have to have their LEZ plans presented later this year and commence implementation from 2019 through to diesel demise in the next decade or two.

The results are in, governments local and national taking action.  Adapt or die.

[skomaz]

8 minutes ago, lol-lol said:

Adapt or die.

 

I don't disagree - but I'd rather we adapted based on reliable fact rather than ill informed knee jerk reactions to unreliable data and misinformation!

 

Oh - and we ALL die eventually!

 

Anyway - back to Brexit now???

Edited 4 February, 2018 by skomaz

[Sad555]

No .this is  much more interesting.

[Bignij]

3 hours ago, skomaz said:

 

Anyway - back to Brexit now???

Those bloody foreign particulates, coming over here, killing our people.