EU referendum/Brexit discussion - Part 2

[Sad555]

23 minutes ago, S00perb said:

IF UK leaves EU, why the hell should wobbly Teri May be the only person to make the detailed decisions? Let parliament decide - surely THAT is democracy. This is far too important to leave in the hands of the weakest PM in recent times.

 

Please don’t forget the majority of the people of the country  that voted to leave with a majority democratic vote that was the directive to the government to leave the EU THATS DEMOCRACY

[dg360]

No I think you'll find referendums are the tool of populism. 

It's completely naive to believe that by letting people vote on things directly, you end up with a fair society.

If you believe it to be true, lets have a referendum on how much tax we should pay next week.  Don't get ill the week after as the NHS will be gone.

[Sad555]

1 hour ago, dg360 said:

 

No I think you'll find referendums are the tool of populism

 

No ,,,,,,,,,,,,perhaps 48.1% might agree with you but 51.9% won’t 

[Ryeman]

5 hours ago, Sad555 said:

don't forget HONDA,CIVIC AND CRV.......MINI.....little company called TOYOTA ,auris,avensis....NISSAN JUKE.QASHQAI,NOTE AND LEAF AND INFINITI Q30 ................ALL BUILT IN THE UK

Does the old dart actually own a car company anymore?.

[Sad555]

Sorry ryeman “dart” do you mean HOLDEN..?

4 minutes ago, Ryeman said:

Does the old dart actually own a car company anymore?.

 

[Ryeman]

1 minute ago, Sad555 said:

Sorry ryeman “dart” do you mean HOLDEN..?

 

Touché 

America, Britain and Awstraya are world leaders, right!?

[Ryeman]

4 hours ago, dg360 said:

No I think you'll find referendums are the tool of populism. 

It's completely naive to believe that by letting people vote on things directly, you end up with a fair society.

If you believe it to be true, lets have a referendum on how much tax we should pay next week.  Don't get ill the week after as the NHS will be gone.

When you don’t have to vote and the polls say nothing is going to change, winning by such a narrow margin on such a fundamentally important issue, only leaves a massive query as to what if.......

It will remain an own goal with no true legitimacy or clarity.

[moley]

10 hours ago, dg360 said:

No I think you'll find referendums are the tool of populism. 

It's completely naive to believe that by letting people vote on things directly, you end up with a fair society.

If you believe it to be true, lets have a referendum on how much tax we should pay next week.  Don't get ill the week after as the NHS will be gone.

Referendums were perfectly acceptable right up until the last one, when the result didn't turn out the way a lot of people thought it would. 

If you don't want the people to vote on things directly then they shouldn't be allowed to vote on choosing a government, then we could have a dictatorship, where the people get no say at all.

[Ryeman]

When people happy with the status quo are told don’t bother because nothing is going to change the result is hardly compelling as a statement of intent or desire.

How can nations be so casual about such important issues, and, in Cameron’s case, for purely political opportunistic motivation.

What sort of dumb ass world have we all descended into.

 

In the US such a vote would have required a senate supermajority of at least 60% for moving to a referendum and might not have even got to the point of voting on whether to have a referendum, but in Britain it’s just thrown in as bait for personal gain ....sheesh 

Edited 2 May, 2018 by Ryeman

[Bignij]

48 minutes ago, Ryeman said:

When people happy with the status quo are told don’t bother because nothing is going to change the result is hardly compelling as a statement of intent or desire.

How can nations be so casual about such important issues, and, in Cameron’s case, for purely political opportunistic motivation.

What sort of dumb ass world have we all descended into.

I tend to agree. Cameron called the referendum out of political vanity. Oh boy, that turned out well. 

[lol-lol]

1 hour ago, Ryeman said:

When people happy with the status quo are told don’t bother because nothing is going to change the result is hardly compelling as a statement of intent or desire.

How can nations be so casual about such important issues, and, in Cameron’s case, for purely political opportunistic motivation.

What sort of dumb ass world have we all descended into.

 

In the US such a vote would have required a senate supermajority of at least 60% for moving to a referendum and might not have even got to the point of voting on whether to have a referendum, but in Britain it’s just thrown in as bait for personal gain ....sheesh 

 

Absolutely right and it should have been a super-majority for such a decision and not just 17m dragging 66m out of the EU.  Also those 17m many will not live to see the chaos they have caused whilst millions who were just short of voting age will have reduced prospects because of Cameron's folly. 

 

The hypocrisy is that the Con government want super-majorities for union ballets but not on matters of national importants.    Still some signs we can get a soft BREXIT or no BREXIT.

 

Off to Multi-Modal at the NEC today and BREXIT preparation seminars etc and thousands of jobs in the offing relating to BREXIT but the cost of those jobs will need to be paid for by British Industry to complete in the world's largest market place ie the EU.  

[Ryeman]

1 minute ago, lol-lol said:

 

Absolutely right and it should have been a super-majority for such a decision and not just 17m dragging 66m out of the EU.  Also those 17m many will not live to see the chaos they have caused whilst millions who were just short of voting age will have reduced prospects because of Cameron's folly. 

 

The hypocrisy is that the Con government want super-majorities for union ballets but not on matters of national importants.    Still some signs we can get a soft BREXIT or no BREXIT.

 

Off to Multi-Modal at the NEC today and BREXIT preparation seminars etc and thousands of jobs in the offing relating to BREXIT but the cost of those jobs will need to be paid for by British Industry to complete in the world's largest market place ie the EU.  

It’s been reduced to a trite “we won - nah ne nahne nah nah”.

Number one is coming home because he feels the country isn’t the same anymore - mean n nasty.

Sadly, pretty much universal these days, and to think that Farage was a driving force......eew!

[S00perb]

19 hours ago, Sad555 said:

Please don’t forget the majority of the people of the country  that voted to leave with a majority democratic vote that was the directive to the government to leave the EU THATS DEMOCRACY

 

The 'slim' majority voted on the following question:

Quote

“Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

 

1. No mention of trade agreements

2. No mention of transfer of power (devolved or central)

3. And most importantly, no mention of what laws Terri May wants to accept back, change a little on return or just plain ignor

 

SO, should parliament make those choises in a democratic way, or should Terri May and her weakest link make ALL the choices?

The most powerful decision of our time taken by the weakest government on the slimmest mandate is not democracy.

 

Edited 2 May, 2018 by S00perb
addition

[Sad555]

SLIM doesn’t come into it,the majority voted to leave and the ALL government should be working to achieving WHAT WAS VOTED FOR not fighting against each other,they had the mandate from the majority.

[moley]

32 minutes ago, S00perb said:

 

1. No mention of trade agreements

 

 

This was mentioned in the remain leaflet that the government issued along with many other negatives of leaving the eu. 

[S00perb]

1 hour ago, Sad555 said:

SLIM doesn’t come into it,the majority voted to leave and the ALL government should be working to achieving WHAT WAS VOTED FOR not fighting against each other,they had the mandate from the majority.

They had the mandate to do what exactly? "Brexit means Brexit" means jack. NO details of what it actually means. So Parliament should decide what that actually means, not wobbly Maybot

Edited 2 May, 2018 by S00perb

[S00perb]

56 minutes ago, moley said:

This was mentioned in the remain leaflet that the government issued along with many other negatives of leaving the eu. 

Wasn't on the ballot paper, wasn't what was voted on

Edited 2 May, 2018 by S00perb

[CWARD]

On 28/03/2018 at 14:30, CWARD said:

I've tried to keep off this thread due to the same *******s been spouted. The latest load of BS is the that the referendum wasn't democratic.

 

Jan 2013       David Cameron promises a referendum on EU membership should the Tory's win the next election. 

 

May 2015     The Tory's win the general election. Remainers could have voted to prevent a referendum and keep the Tory's out of power

 

June 2016     Leave wins the referendum by 52% to 48%

 

Jan 2017       The Supreme Court rules that parliamentary approval is required to trigger Article 50

 

Mar 2017     Parliament votes to approve the the bill giving the government the authority to trigger article 50. Letter given to EU council triggering article 50.

 

June 2017    General election. The parties campaigned as Tory's continue with Brexit, Labour flip flopped over the referendum but in the end honoured the referendum, Lib Dems would reverse the referendum and end Brexit. Still Tory's remained in power and Brexit continues.

 

Just how much democracy would you like before it suits your view.

 

Hopefully my last comment on here. In the meantime I'll be on Facebook being brainwashed into buying a man bag, doing a half marathon and contributing to the dash cam videos and buying some Easter donuts that are always in my Facebook feeds . Actually I might buy a donut, not had one in ages.

 

Seems like we’re going around in circles again over what democracy means. As the result doesn’t agree with Sooperb’s view then it must be wrong 

Edited 2 May, 2018 by CWARD

[S00perb]

So what do people actually want? Obviously the remainders don't get a say, but I am sure the leavers don't all want the same thing anyway. They actually don't seem to want to state their wishes any more (probably because they don't want to get blamed for the mess they are creating)

 

Quote

The government's two options

• A 'highly streamlined' customs arrangement - This would minimise customs checks rather than getting rid of them altogether, by using new technologies and things like trusted trader schemes, which could allow companies to pay duties in bulk every few months rather than every time their goods cross a border
• A customs partnership - This would remove the need for new customs checks at the border. The UK would collect tariffs set by the EU customs union on goods coming into the UK on behalf of the EU. If those goods didn't leave the UK and UK tariffs on them were lower, companies could then claim back the difference.

 

These two options are very different, but were not on the ballot paper were they?

Brexit means Brexit - about as meaningful as 'it is what it is' - it means JACK

 

[Sad555]

when you have a government  with a slim majority and infighting from all sides, trying to come to an agreement with a lot of other countries who couldnt come to an agreement before the vote and are now bitter and twisted that we are leaving now, no wonder things are difficult.hopefully when other countries start leaving after us they wont make it so difficult for them.

[SurreyJohn]

21 minutes ago, CWARD said:

 

Seems like we’re going around in circles again over what democracy means. As the result doesn’t agree with Sooperb’s view then it must be wrong 

 

The way I see it, is that the outright leave has proved unworkable, so there is now a proposed leave in name only, with some sort of customs part deal that may take 5-8 years to set up

 

People shouldn't continue to say there was a democratic vote, so even if aim can no longer be achieved we should blindly do it anyway, like lemmings jumping off a cliff

 

Brexiteers haven't managed to kick Davis to make it work, eventually they will have to admit to an alternative less bad solution, which will be next best, luckily Lords have just given a backstop if no (or poor) exit agreement is made first.

Edited 2 May, 2018 by SurreyJohn

[S00perb]

31 minutes ago, Sad555 said:

when you have a government  with a slim majority and infighting from all sides, trying to come to an agreement with a lot of other countries who couldnt come to an agreement before the vote and are now bitter and twisted that we are leaving now, no wonder things are difficult.hopefully when other countries start leaving after us they wont make it so difficult for them.

" when other countries start leaving "????

Mainland Europeans are proving far more intelligent than the average UK voter, they take one look at the mess the UK has made of it and are far happier where they are. I have found NO ONE in te mainland that doesn't think the whole brexit idea was very peculiar British joke. Does anyone think the EU is perfect? No. Do they want to improve it or leave? Improve it of course.

Quote

PARIS (Reuters) - Support for the European Union has surged to multi-year highs in the bloc’s biggest countries following Brexit vote.

 

[CWARD]

What the Lords have done is frustrate and delay negotiations giving the UK a much weaker hand regardless of leaving or staying within the EU. We now have to negotiate with the EU and Parliament. The EU can demand more from the UK whilst giving less knowing that some in Parliament will agree to anything to keep within the EU.

If Parliament try to keep us from exiting the EU then we have more negotiations and an even weaker hand. To reverse article 50 the EU has already stated that the UK cannot do it on its own and would need the approval from the rest of the member states. No doubt there would be conditions attached to this too but again nothing in the EU legislation has been documented on how this would happen. Would there be a financial penalty, become part of the Schengen area, change currency to Euro, lose our veto.  Guaranteed it wouldn’t be a magic wand. 

[CWARD]

5 minutes ago, S00perb said:

" when other countries start leaving "????

Mainland Europeans are proving far more intelligent than the average UK voter, they take one look at the mess the UK has made of it and are far happier where they are. I have found NO ONE in te mainland that doesn't think the whole brexit idea was very peculiar British joke. Does anyone think the EU is perfect? No. Do they want to improve it or leave? Improve it of course.

 

 

How has the EU improved since the Brexit vote by wanting a higher annual budget, going for a qualified majority to prevent member states from using their veto, wanting to create a two tier system and calls for a more federal Europe represented by a single president rather than individual nations.  I guess the EU isn’t listening to those who want to improve it. 

[@Lee]

Tory cnutpigs 0 - Lords 8
 

18:54

BREAKINGGovernment defeated on Northern Ireland guarantees

EU Withdrawal Bill

House of Lords

Parliament

Peers vote 309 to 242 for Lord Patten's amendment requiring ministers to act in a way that is compatible with the 1998 Northern Ireland Act and the Belfast principles.

The Belfast principles include partnership, equality and mutual respect as the basis of relationships within Northern Ireland, between the North and South of Ireland, and between the islands of Ireland and Great Britain.