EU referendum/Brexit discussion - Part 2

[trundlenut]

5 minutes ago, CWARD said:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/mar/19/monsanto-trial-roundup-verdict-edwin-hardeman-cancer

 

Will the E.U. finally pull the license on glyphosate even though it was surprise they ever licensed it in the first place. No doubt the lobbyists from Bayer helped especially when the proof glyphosate was safe to use was cut and pasted from the manufacturer themselves. 

 

 

Well the US would want us to ditch the precautionary principle as part of a trade deal.  The approach to regulation in the US is part of the reason why you end up with court cases like that.

[Ryeman]

1 minute ago, trundlenut said:

He is a busy man.  CEO and MD of two companies, he is an active contributor to two All-Party Parliamentary Groups, four Westminster Think-Tanks and the Department for International Trade. His interests are as an Author, in Physics, International Business, Social Justice, the Constitution, South Asia, International & Strategic Affairs, Defence, the British Commonwealth and bringing UK Scientists into business.  He is actually a director of 4 companies.  Coltraco is a truncation of the Colonial Trading Company.  Coltraco is also a small business, but the details on companies house don't match the information on their website.

If he has answers he certainly makes it difficult to understand why he obfuscates when asked direct questions.

 

[@Lee]

5 minutes ago, trundlenut said:

He is a busy man.  CEO and MD of two companies, he is an active contributor to two All-Party Parliamentary Groups, four Westminster Think-Tanks and the Department for International Trade. His interests are as an Author, in Physics, International Business, Social Justice, the Constitution, South Asia, International & Strategic Affairs, Defence, the British Commonwealth and bringing UK Scientists into business.  He is actually a director of 4 companies.  Coltraco is a truncation of the Colonial Trading Company.  Coltraco is also a small business, but the details on companies house don't match the information on their website.

I lied on my CV as well once but that's taking the proverbial

[Ryeman]

I certainly wouldn’t be paying him for professional services if he has that many distractions.

[trundlenut]

1 minute ago, Ryeman said:

I certainly wouldn’t be paying him for professional services if he has that many distractions.

He does loads more than that, he is member of various working groups, trade bodies, standards committees for BSi, I didn't bother copying the full entry from one website.  The list also didn't include the work he did for the group whose website it was.

[CWARD]

10 minutes ago, trundlenut said:

Well the US would want us to ditch the precautionary principle as part of a trade deal.  The approach to regulation in the US is part of the reason why you end up with court cases like that.

 

Nothing really to do with court cases but public health and the EU giving a licence for its use stating it was safe to use even though they hadn’t done an independent study. 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/environment/2017/sep/15/eu-report-on-weedkiller-safety-copied-text-from-monsanto-study

 

Enjoy your veggies with a side order of  cancer but don’t worry it’s E.U.  approved 

[Ryeman]

1 minute ago, trundlenut said:

He does loads more than that, he is member of various working groups, trade bodies, standards committees for BSi, I didn't bother copying the full entry from one website.  The list also didn't include the work he did for the group whose website it was.

I definitely wouldn’t pay for any professional services from him.

No wonder he wouldn’t deal with specifics when asked a simple question.

[trundlenut]

4 minutes ago, CWARD said:

 

Nothing really to do with court cases but public health and the EU giving a licence for its use stating it was safe to use even though they hadn’t done an independent study. 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/environment/2017/sep/15/eu-report-on-weedkiller-safety-copied-text-from-monsanto-study

 

Enjoy your veggies with a side order of  cancer but don’t worry it’s E.U.  approved 

There are the veggies and maybe drinking water, there is also home use.  It has been known to kill fish very efficiently and the use and the available strength has been restricted because of it for years now.

[CWARD]

9 minutes ago, trundlenut said:

There are the veggies and maybe drinking water, there is also home use.  It has been known to kill fish very efficiently and the use and the available strength has been restricted because of it for years now.

 

Yet you can go on Amazon and buy it 

Barclay Gallup Home & Garden Glyphosate Commercial Strength Weed killer (treats upto 3332 sq/m) 2Lt Bottle + Complimentary Measuring Cup and Gloves by Elixir Gardens https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B071GVC33M/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_tCxKCb7T1M13T

[trundlenut]

12 minutes ago, CWARD said:

 

Yet you can go on Amazon and buy it 

Barclay Gallup Home & Garden Glyphosate Commercial Strength Weed killer (treats upto 3332 sq/m) 2Lt Bottle + Complimentary Measuring Cup and Gloves by Elixir Gardens https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B071GVC33M/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_tCxKCb7T1M13T

The stuff the public can buy is lower strength than that "professionals" can get. Even that has been limited. About 10 years ago you could kill Japanese Knotweed pretty much with one application of the strong stuff, but now you are looking at at least three applications over two growing seasons. 

 

Whether the over the counter stuff is enough to cause cancer for a normal person compared to someone who used it for a living is a different matter. Could you get exposed to enough to significantly increase your risk of leukaemia or other cancer, especially compared to all the other potential exposures due to poor air quality, diet, smoking etc. 

[@Lee]

 

[Ootohere]

[Ryeman]

1 hour ago, Skoffski said:

He can’t lose if he has 108 markets then.   Nothing special do you think?.

The rest can make their own arrangements I suppose ........?

Is Jack his middle name?.

[gadgetman]

Amazing all the leavers are now saying Parliament isn't democratic and should be dissolved. 

 

 

The very same ones who want parliament to be democratic, but because they don't like that version of democracy want something else. 

 

But putting the available options to a people vote to decide isn't democracy either. 

 

 

So what kind of democracy is it they actually want? 

[moley]

I think less and less people understand what democracy really means. The referendum result didn't go the way of remain and it was undemocratic. If there is a second referendum and the result is remain, would the result be democratic or undemocratic? 

It's the same at general elections. The other party wins, so the system is 'undemocratic' and we need a different system. What do you do if you change the system and the other party still wins? 

[Ryeman]

If Britain dealt with the basic process of voting and don’t casually allow funding of blatant lies you might end up with a credible decision .

By not requiring any sort of supermajority for something so important you have set yourselves up for endless disappointment.

 

[CWARD]

7 hours ago, Skoffski said:

 

But he isn’t an expert who flog’s electric and ask the public for £75k so he can carry on being on TV, but has been silent since asking for the money. 

[CWARD]

8 hours ago, trundlenut said:

The stuff the public can buy is lower strength than that "professionals" can get. Even that has been limited. About 10 years ago you could kill Japanese Knotweed pretty much with one application of the strong stuff, but now you are looking at at least three applications over two growing seasons. 

 

Whether the over the counter stuff is enough to cause cancer for a normal person compared to someone who used it for a living is a different matter. Could you get exposed to enough to significantly increase your risk of leukaemia or other cancer, especially compared to all the other potential exposures due to poor air quality, diet, smoking etc. 

 

You can’t fault your love for the EU defending them over giving a new licence for a product that the WHO states is carcinogenic. The granting of the licence was from the EUs own independent report into its safety that was actually cut and pasted from the manufacturer.  

 

Greenpeace EU food policy director, Franziska Achterberg, commented: “The people who are supposed to protect us from dangerous pesticides have failed to do their jobs and betrayed the trust Europeans place in them.”

The Green party called it “a dark day for consumers, farmers and the environment”.

Chris Portier, an advisor to IARC in its glyphosate decision, told the Guardian that, in his view, the EU decision was scientifically unsound. “The guidelines maintained by ECHA [the European chemical agency] would easily classify this compound as a group 1B carcinogen and, as such, it should be banned for use in Europe,” he said.

Traces of glyphosate are routinely found in tests of foodstuffs, water, topsoil, and human urine in amounts way above safe limits set by regulators

source The Guardian  

 

 

[181ce]

1 minute ago, CWARD said:

 

You can’t fault your love for the EU defending them over giving a new licence for a product that the WHO states is carcinogenic. The granting of the licence was from the EUs own independent report into its safety that was actually cut and pasted from the manufacturer.  

 

Greenpeace EU food policy director, Franziska Achterberg, commented: “The people who are supposed to protect us from dangerous pesticides have failed to do their jobs and betrayed the trust Europeans place in them.”

The Green party called it “a dark day for consumers, farmers and the environment”.

Chris Portier, an advisor to IARC in its glyphosate decision, told the Guardian that, in his view, the EU decision was scientifically unsound. “The guidelines maintained by ECHA [the European chemical agency] would easily classify this compound as a group 1B carcinogen and, as such, it should be banned for use in Europe,” he said.

Traces of glyphosate are routinely found in tests of foodstuffs, water, topsoil, and human urine in amounts way above safe limits set by regulators

source The Guardian  

 

 

So the EU are imperfect

What a surprise

Now let's compare the alternatives shall we ?

[trundlenut]

8 minutes ago, CWARD said:

 

You can’t fault your love for the EU defending them over giving a new licence for a product that the WHO states is carcinogenic. The granting of the licence was from the EUs own independent report into its safety that was actually cut and pasted from the manufacturer.  

 

Greenpeace EU food policy director, Franziska Achterberg, commented: “The people who are supposed to protect us from dangerous pesticides have failed to do their jobs and betrayed the trust Europeans place in them.”

The Green party called it “a dark day for consumers, farmers and the environment”.

Chris Portier, an advisor to IARC in its glyphosate decision, told the Guardian that, in his view, the EU decision was scientifically unsound. “The guidelines maintained by ECHA [the European chemical agency] would easily classify this compound as a group 1B carcinogen and, as such, it should be banned for use in Europe,” he said.

Traces of glyphosate are routinely found in tests of foodstuffs, water, topsoil, and human urine in amounts way above safe limits set by regulators

source The Guardian  

 

 

I'm not defending the EU, they may well be wrong on this. The IARC classed it as Class 2A, which means it is a probably carcinogen, together with 81 other things, which includes red meat and being a hairdresser. 

 

They list 120 things which are known to be carginogenic. 

 

Carcinogen classification is a seriously heavy subject. There is the whole hazard versus risk argument, the process to establish whether there is a safe level etc. etc. 

 

It should be noted that the UK government lobbied the EU to grant the approval extension. 

[CWARD]

• England: Following the landmark $289 million Monsanto Roundup verdict on Aug. 10, 2018, Homebase, one of England’s largest DIY retailers, announced that it would review the sale of Roundup and Ranger Pro. A number of townships, including Brighton, Frensham, Hammersmith & Fulham, Bristol, Glastonbury, Frome, Erewash, North Somerset, Lewes and Wadebridge have also voted to institute restrictions on pesticides and herbicides, including glyphosate. The London Borough of Croydon announced at the end of 2018 that it will stop using glyphosate for ground maintenance.
• Scotland: Aberdeen cut back its use of herbicides and Edinburgh’s City Council voted to phase out glyphosate. In November of 2017, five of Scotland’s six EU parliamentarians voted in favor of a motion that would phase out glyphosate by 2022.

Many other countries have also gone against the use of glyphosate regardless of how safe the EU says it is. 

@181ce no one said the U.K. was perfect but not as clearly in the pocket of big business like the EU. Just a reminder that the EU biggest deliberate environmental disaster in air pollution caused by VW emissions scandal still hasn’t been fined by the EU. 

[Skoda_newby]

1 hour ago, moley said:

I think less and less people understand what democracy really means. The referendum result didn't go the way of remain and it was undemocratic. If there is a second referendum and the result is remain, would the result be democratic or undemocratic? 

It's the same at general elections. The other party wins, so the system is 'undemocratic' and we need a different system. What do you do if you change the system and the other party still wins? 

 

My question has often been that if there were another referendum and people voted leave again, then what? How would that solve the situation we are currently in? It wouldn't, at all.

 

One of the EU members from Lithuania (gotta laugh at that) was saying today that the options were no-deal or May's deal with the backstop. The reporter was amazed that the EU would rather lose the UK completely than putting a legally binding clause on the amendment that May presented last week.

Edited 20 March, 2019 by Skoda_newby
clarity

[Skoda_newby]

42 minutes ago, CWARD said:

• England: Following the landmark $289 million Monsanto Roundup verdict on Aug. 10, 2018, Homebase, one of England’s largest DIY retailers, announced that it would review the sale of Roundup and Ranger Pro. A number of townships, including Brighton, Frensham, Hammersmith & Fulham, Bristol, Glastonbury, Frome, Erewash, North Somerset, Lewes and Wadebridge have also voted to institute restrictions on pesticides and herbicides, including glyphosate. The London Borough of Croydon announced at the end of 2018 that it will stop using glyphosate for ground maintenance.
• Scotland: Aberdeen cut back its use of herbicides and Edinburgh’s City Council voted to phase out glyphosate. In November of 2017, five of Scotland’s six EU parliamentarians voted in favor of a motion that would phase out glyphosate by 2022.

Many other countries have also gone against the use of glyphosate regardless of how safe the EU says it is. 

@181ce no one said the U.K. was perfect but not as clearly in the pocket of big business like the EU. Just a reminder that the EU biggest deliberate environmental disaster in air pollution caused by VW emissions scandal still hasn’t been fined by the EU. 

 

Did you know... that UK farmers regularly spray wheat and barley crops with glysophate just before harvest so that the kernels present themselves more uniformly. It's in our bread and of course anything else that uses wheat or barley. There is a lot of discussion about this practice causing celiac disease. 

 

https://cereals.ahdb.org.uk/media/185527/is02-pre-harvest-glyphosate-application-to-wheat-and-barley.pdf

 

Edited 20 March, 2019 by Skoda_newby

[CWARD]

I wonder if this is still happening as the report is over a decade old. There are quite a few farming practices that coming under scrutiny now for how damaging they are to both the environment and crop/livestock 

[Skoda_newby]

1 minute ago, CWARD said:

I wonder if this is still happening as the report is over a decade old. There are quite a few farming practices that coming under scrutiny now for how damaging they are to both the environment and crop/livestock 

 

Let's check. I hope not.