Tyre spinning with Winter Tyres

[Nicanor]

Hi,

 

I recently replaced the summer tyres with new Winter tyres. My car is new (2 months old) and everything on it is also new .. even the winter tyres.

My car is 1.8 TSI with FWD.

I discovered after i switched the tyres that with these winter ones .. if i push the accelerator a little harder .. let's say 30-40% the tyres loose traction and spin until i release a little the accelerator even with the default traction control ON.

This never happened with the summer tyres (i know .. they have more rubber contact with the road .. but still .. i have traction control)

Is there a setting somewhere to tell the car is on winter tyres or is there a problem with traction control system ?

[Ootohere]

So what winter tyres are fitted?   The summer tyres in warmer weather were getting good traction, were they on a wet road as well?

 

Obviously you are not driving to the conditions and the traction available between road and tyres fitted.

Give it less welly maybe.

If you have TC on and there is wheel spin then the car can either nip a brake to stop / inhibit wheel spin, or cut power to the drivetrain.

 

Just do that yourself maybe, drive easier, the winter tyres do a specific job and are unlikely to be as good as summer tyres in the dry, 

or actually sometimes they are.

[brettikivi]

Winter tyres require slip in the winter in snow, for example, to start. The TC is working correctly. 10-90% spin is optimal. Getting off the line without spin in snow is not happening.

 

Also: new tyres are always slipperier than when they are worn in. Check the pressures are correctly, drive it nicely for the first few hundred kms, and you'll be fine. Is this the first time you have winter tyres on?

 

 - Bret

[Nicanor]

Hi,

 

For this car yes .. first time winter tyres.

In general i have driven almost 10 years in winter with winter tyres so i have experience with them .. but not with a car with TC and so much power.

I was coming from an Opel Corsa with manual transmission and 90 HP petrol car .. and there i rarely got wheel spin on let's say dry road. Maybe because of less power.

These things are happening more often when on the road is a little water from air condensation and i am trying to pull off quickly to enter a busy road or something like that.

On the Octavia i have 180 HP TSI and DSG and i thought that maybe it's something wrong with the traction control system, but if it's normal to have some wheel spin if the road is a little wet or have snow .. then i will try to adapt my style a little bit.

[Ootohere]

re post #3.

Winter tyres do not 'require slip',  there might be slip, but that is not a requirement.

Getting off the line in snow without slip can and does happen. It happens lots obviously,

& getting out of being stuck can happen, read the Owners Manual on when to Switch off the TC to do this, and when chains are fitted etc.

[philbes]

My winter tyres do spin occasional, but usually when temperature is unseasonably high - like the recent 10-14C in Gloucestershire.  Not really surprising as winter tyres are designed for temperatures below 7C.

[gullyg]

My winter tyres do spin occasional, but usually when temperature is unseasonably high - like the recent 10-14C in Gloucestershire. Not really surprising as winter tyres are designed for temperatures below 7C.

This is in my experience spot on.

On my vRS with Goodyear ultragrip 8s I found cornering was significantly worse at temps over about 7 deg c especially on roundabouts.

On the x3 with dunlops (something or other) it's even worse - presumably because it's a heavier car.

I'm not sure most people would notice in low powered cars but even mild performance cars (tdi vRS) and heavy 4x4s it really shows.

As long as you're aware (I really wish tyre places would warn customers) it's not a big deal - just have to drive more carefully and in my opinion worth the degradation of warm performance for snow and ice performance.

On the other hand "all season" tyres in the winter and summers in the summer may be a better bet for some. Or just not using the car much in cases of bad weather (we could get away without the car if it wasn't for the health/location of relatives).

I do wonder if winter tyres are being sold as the cure to everything where sometimes they're not the best solution.

Edited 20 December, 2016 by gullyg

[Ootohere]

Maybe worth making a sticker reading this and putting on the dash or near the 'Winter Tyres Fitted' Sticker if the car has one.

(In the MFD is often not enough of a Winter Tyre Warning', the Stickers should be mandatory in the whole of the EU IMO.)

 

Plenty drive vehicles and have no idea what tyres are fitted, or what pressures the tyres are at.

Unless there is an outside temp gauge or warning given they have no idea the ambient temp, 

and still do not know the temp of the road surface.

 

The most amazing thing is that some think they can drive the same as on days when the Ambient or Road temp is 10-20 degrees higher.

Edited 20 December, 2016 by Offski

[Toad82]

Im glad this has been mentioned.  I was going to ask the same, in particular the power delivery / traction control.  I fitted my winter tyres last weekend, set the speed rating on the infotainment system and after a few drives the delivery of power was noticably different, it felt less aggressive, even in sport mode.

 

Now it could be a number of things, the wheels are a smaller size and probably the tyres doing what they need to do, gripping better in colder conditions i guess!  I felt I had to push the car harder to enable the TC though.

 

Its seems now too the different tyres / wheels are giving me a slight steering wheel mis-alignment... :thumbdown:

[Nicanor]

The only reason i asked the original question was to know how TC works and when it supposed to kick in .. so i could notice if is there a fault in the TC system or not.

So if i set the speed warning in the system for winter tyres .. should make a difference in power delivery ? i thought this was only for a warning .. not interact with car parametrs.

[Ootohere]

When i fit Winter or Snow tyres on a Mk2 Fabia vRS which has no settings / modes readily available from the drivers seat / dashboard

i go into the system with VCDS & change the Factory Steering Assist to less assistance.

 

I do this as well depending on tyres/ wheels fitted in the summer, 

more rubber sometimes factory setting, sometimes less assistance.

 

PS

Setting the Winter Tyre Setting should change nothing other than setting a Warning at the speed you set it at.

Edited 20 December, 2016 by Offski

[brettikivi]

re post #3.

Winter tyres do not 'require slip',  there might be slip, but that is not a requirement.

Getting off the line in snow without slip can and does happen. It happens lots obviously,

& getting out of being stuck can happen, read the Owners Manual on when to Switch off the TC to do this, and when chains are fitted etc.

If you can get an Octy off a standing start in pure snow and ice without any slip whatsoever, I'll be extremely impressed.

 

I read a long time ago that optimal grip for Winter tyres involves slip between 10 and 90% and I've seen no reason not to believe it. A little googling brings this up - http://www.leifiphysik.de/mechanik/reibung-und-fortbewegung/ausblick/reifen-aus-gummi-ein-kompliziertes-reibungsproblem - which implies 5-10% on snow and ice, with more necessary on gravel. Since I've already been through 3000km this winter and a good chunk of that has been on snow, I'd ike to think there's some experience to back up the statements. This is also winter number 12 up here.... 

 

A theory which is posited elsewhere assumes that ASR is calibrated for summer tyres and to limit slip to 2-3%. With winters on ice / snow this is counterproductive.

ASR / TCS / Whatever it's called - traction control - *will* let through some slip before trying to limit engine power to achieve grip. I'm used to the old versions of the ABS / ESP / EDS / ASR combo and the following seem to hold true for the Octy, too. I will be trying to prove this on an ice track in a few weeks. 

 - ESP is linked to ASR or traction control. If you turn ASR off, you'll slide way easier than otherwise. The probable reason for this is simple: ASR does a lot more than you think. I have to work out how to prove this, but I suspect it's going to be difficult.

 - ESP also requires rotation to kick in. If the car is not rotating around a vertical axis in the centre of the car, ESP will NOT do anything. You can slide all you want - see turning ASR off - but until the back starts to come around, teh computer will do nothing. If you're driving a slalom, it gets very interesting very quickly because the system may or may not react quickly enough. I'll be testing this on the track, I know it's not fast enough in the A2 and the system gets confused as a result. Steering wheel direction will also be taken into account, but the idea of roundabouts with a minimal flick of the wheel and the right foot should be possible without triggering ESP or turning the indicator off.

 - EDS or power limitation will not show a warning light on the dash.

 - ASR will work all the way up to around 60mph, I've seen mine blinking on the dash under hard acceleration in third coming down an on-ramp. It's kind of normal to see it but not that fast.

 - ASR can also kill momentum too much as it tries too hard to limit the spin. You will get better results on inclines in more extreme conditions with ASR off than with it on. A good example is our driveway - it's halfway up the hill, and I regularly turn ASR off and leave the car to spin its way up the hill, especially on fresh powder. ASR will kill it completely. This is valid for the Fiesta, Octy and A2. I've also had to drop the car all the way to the bottom of the hill a couple of times when using older tyres. This fits with the idea that the system is calibrated for wet starts on summer tyres and not winters, never mind chains.

 

 - Bret

Edited 20 December, 2016 by brettikivi

[Ootohere]

Assume the position then and prepare to be impressed, or dont bother.

What is so special about an Octavia that they need wheel spin to get moving, not exactly raging powerful beasts are they, 

or light at the front?  

Maybe you need that wheel spin to have electrics helping you if needs must and to have lights / symbols flashing  at you.

 

?

Where do you get to 'Pure Snow & Ice'  from what you said about 'winter tyres require to slip in snow' for example to start' as in post #3.?

 

I drive in lots of snow, and drive on ice, sometimes ice and no snow.

On snow no slip is rather common and that is without studs, just the right tyres.

Ice & ice with water on (thawing) is a different kettle of fish, and something rather common in the UK.

 

Common for the 4 decades i have spent driving on snow, and ice, icy slush  and just cold or wet roads.

Its not rocket science, just winter driving.

Edited 20 December, 2016 by Offski

[KenONeill]

It gets worse; I can move off on wet UK snow, on Summer tyres, with 0 wheelspin. It's called "clutch control".

[neiln]

I've noticed the winters (nokian we d3) seem, in normal mild winter conditions, to start to spin a bit earlier than the summers (conti sc2), but when the contis let go they totally let go and all the TC did was flash a light on the dash with no apparent ability to control the spinning wheel.  Whereas the nokians have the light flashing before the bum detects the spinning wheel and the car seems to do a decent job of controlling it....ie it's more gradual.  Summer or winter tyres..... There is a LOT less grip around even at mild winter temps than in the summer.

[brettikivi]

I'm not going to argue this. Feel free to believe what you want. ASR and EDS are doing way more than it seems from the outside. 

 

 - Bret

[neiln]

I'm happy to believe a Finlander on motoring, given the lessons you have and conditions you drive every winter!  I'm sure the stability systems are doing lots, my comments were just that the outward signs of lack of grip that even a monkey like me notices are very different between my summer conti and winter nokian tyres.

[gregoir]

When I used Vredestein Quattrac 4 I expected ,and got a little wheelspin and plenty of grip in snow when driving normally. Unlike using summer tyres where it was touch and go to get moving at all.

[TurboTurbot2]

Hi Folks, I used to be TurboTurbot, but the new sign-in system locked me out, so I reappear as a newbie. 

I put Vredestein Snowtracks (whatever the latest version is) on for the third year running for Aberdeenshire country roads (plenty of white stuff). These tyres are really good in the cold, but for the first ~100 miles after they have spent the summer in the garage, they are noticeably less grippy than the sportrack 5s they replace in December. They are certainly better below about 5C and on snow, they are as good as having 4WD (mines not, though I would love a Scout). I agree with Jock, of course, you have to drive according to the conditions if you don't want to appear like the Dukes of Hazard and wear out your winter boots by February.  The only times I've had to stop or turn round it has been because a) the road was blocked by others stranded or b ) the snow-gates closed the road (some will know Tomintoul and the Lecht!).  

Edited 21 December, 2016 by TurboTurbot2

[paulsoava]

The only reason i asked the original question was to know how TC works and when it supposed to kick in .. so i could notice if is there a fault in the TC system or not.

So if i set the speed warning in the system for winter tyres .. should make a difference in power delivery ? i thought this was only for a warning .. not interact with car parametrs.

Hi. The speed warning does just that: it lets you know when you reach the maximum accepted speed of your tyres; it does not interfere with anything else. What does probably make a difference in perceived power delivery is the fact that winter tyres have a different composition, hence their traction/braking/cornering properties not being the same as expected when changing from summer tyres. Also bear in mind that if you use a different wheel diameter you may have tyres that are narrower and have softer sidewalls (cornering will be affected). I too have a 1,8 TSI and I run 225/45 R17 summers vs 205/55 R16 winters. During the cold season comfort is improved, potholes make the suspension crash less often but I lose grip way more easily when attempting a fast getaway from standstill or if cornering too eagerly. Not to mention that winter roads are by default a worse scenario traction wise (even when they seem dry because of all the salt, moisture etc. they are slippery no matter what tyre you use). As for the TC, it displays the yellow blinking sign on the dashboard every time I floor it in 1st and 2nd gear (at around 1500-2000 rpm and again after 4000 rpm) without any noticeable effect. If I floor it really hard or if there is poor grip (patches of ice, uneven road surface, tram lines etc.) it will be more aggresive and you will perceive a difference in terms of reduced power output and a somewhat concerning bang/crash in your drivetrain (as if you hit a large pothole). At first it got me worried (my old mk2 1,9 TDI Octavia did not do that), but then I saw some YouTube videos of higher end cars with powerful engines losing traction the same way and remembered that its all down to physics, not a fault in my car. Drive safe. Edited 22 December, 2016 by paulsoava

[Nicanor]

Hi. The speed warning does just that: it lets you know when you reach the maximum accepted speed of your tyres; it does not interfere with anything else. What does probably make a difference in perceived power delivery is the fact that winter tyres have a different composition, hence their traction/braking/cornering properties not being the same as expected when changing from summer tyres. Also bear in mind that if you use a different wheel diameter you may have tyres that are narrower and have softer sidewalls (cornering will be affected). I too have a 1,8 TSI and I run 225/45 R17 summers vs 205/55 R16 winters. During the cold season comfort is improved, potholes make the suspension crash less often but I lose grip way more easily when attempting a fast getaway from standstill or if cornering too eagerly. Not to mention that winter roads are by default a worse scenario traction wise (even when they seem dry because of all the salt, moisture etc. they are slippery no matter what tyre you use). As for the TC, it displays the yellow blinking sign on the dashboard every time I floor it in 1st and 2nd gear (at around 1500-2000 rpm and again after 4000 rpm) without any noticeable effect. If I floor it really hard or if there is poor grip (patches of ice, uneven road surface, tram lines etc.) it will be more aggresive and you will perceive a difference in terms of reduced power output and a somewhat concerning bang/crash in your drivetrain (as if you hit a large pothole). At first it got me worried (my old mk2 1,9 TDI Octavia did not do that), but then I saw some YouTube videos of higher end cars with powerful engines losing traction the same way and remembered that its all down to physics, not a fault in my car. Drive safe.

 

Thanks for the info.

I have the exact same tyre sizes for summer and winter and also the winter tyres are like new (used them 2 weeks in town driving).

I did not notice the yellow sign in dashboard when wheel spinning maybe because it was kicking in yet.

You also responded to one of my concerns .. sometimes when i floor it from standing still (even in summer) i hear that loud bang like i hit a large pothole. That was a concern for me .. because i thought it was TC but i wasn't sure because of the loud noise.

So is this kind of TC with loud BANG noise normal ?

[juan27]

 

You also responded to one of my concerns .. sometimes when i floor it from standing still (even in summer) i hear that loud bang like i hit a large pothole. That was a concern for me .. because i thought it was TC but i wasn't sure because of the loud noise.

So is this kind of TC with loud BANG noise normal ?

 

I think the loud bang is driveline shunt due to wind-up in the drivetrain which is released when the wheels spin, the TC reacts to the wheels spinning, not you booting the accelerator unless I'm much mistaken. 

[paulsoava]

I'm not sure what it is mechanically, I haven't yet serviced it (only 9 months and 10k km) but I will ask the technician what could explain it. It does however reappear over and over under the same circumstances so I have cone to accept it, given that the car behaves perfectly in all other respects.

[themanwithnoaim]

Summer or winter tyres or conditions my TC flashes, I've got used to it now and ignore it by default.

[BoxerBoy]

Lots of good words. Some speculation. All good fun.

 

Sounds like the OP has a case of Heavy Right Foot.

 

But hey-ho - I like to 'test' my traction control occasionally just for fun (one particular uphill cross roads junction springs to mind) and watch the TCS kick in and wink at me for a bit.

 

As was stated above, the wheels have to spin/slip for the system(s) to kick in and do their thing. ABS is another system that gets regularly tested on a quiet road (honest officer, I'm just taking the shine and rust off my wife's discs).

 

Many of us can drive quite smoothly and happily for a long time without these systems activating. My family jokingly refer to this as "chaffeur drive mode" - normally reserved for old folk and little kids  :D