Idling speed - 1.2 TSI

[Brijo]

I've got to learn modern petrol tech (see Goodbye/Hello).  I switched to diesels after my Volvo 240 estate, sold back to the dealer in August 1993 after 9 years.  Anyway - 

 

On cold start-up, this Dec 2013 1.2TSI lump goes to 1200rpm steady for perhaps 30-40 seconds, then drops back quickly to about 850.  Sweet as a nut.  Warm or warmish, though, straight to 850.  The inevitable question - is this normal, doctor?  Reassurance would be gratefully received

[James@RRG_Skoda_Rochdale]

This can usually be attributed to the catalyst warm up phase and can happen any time the ECU sees fit.

[enor]

My 2014 1.4 TSI does the very same thing! I'd say it's normal.

[Brijo]

So kind, James (it'll take time to get used to your new name!) and Enor.  Only five minutes for reassurance - thank you, both.  M'lady is suitably impressed, too! 

[bigjohn]

Normal for the tsi

[Expatman]

Funny how you get used to things. My first Yeti was a 2012 model with 1.2 Tsi and oil temperature rarely got above 80, maybe 90 on a long hot run. Now have a brand new 1.2 Yeti with the newer 1.2 Tsi engine and it warms up much quicker and oil temp quickly goes to 90+ and 100 on fast runs. Dealer tells me that is perfectly normal with the latest 1.2 engines. Water temp sits steady as a rock on Normal 90 whatever speed I go.

[James@RRG_Skoda_Rochdale]

The reasoning behind it is - the faster it reaches operating temp the more controlled and lower the emissions will be (in theory). 

The coolant temp does fluctuate but the gauge remains constant for "comfort" reasons, it can fluctuate anywhere between 80-100 degrees in the background without needing to cause concern. 

The worst thing that the vw group have done in a while is implement the use of a digital oil temp gauge without proper explanation of its behaviour.

[Urrell]

10 hours ago, James@Pentagon_Seat said:

The coolant temp does fluctuate but the gauge remains constant for "comfort" reasons, it can fluctuate anywhere between 80-100 degrees in the background without needing to cause concern.

 

The water temperature is held at about 90 degrees by the thermostat controlling the temperature in the coolant circuit, if it does get hotter due to a heavy workload in hot weather it will show that.
There is nothing to "hold" it at 90 degrees for so called comfort reasons.

 

There is a small oil/water heat exchanger but it's more for bringing the oil temperature up quicker for emissions/economy reasons, that's why you can see the oil temperature fluctuate a lot more than the water.

[Breezy_Pete]

^ You're assuming that the coolant temperature reported to the cluster electronics is what the customer/driver is shown on the gauge. Not a safe assumption.

 

Edit: BTW, if you have VCDS you can compare specified versus actual idle rpm in measuring block 50, first two fields. See here: http://www.ross-tech.com/vag-com/m_blocks/050-059.html

 

 

Edited 28 March, 2017 by Wino

[James@RRG_Skoda_Rochdale]

41 minutes ago, Urrell said:

 

The water temperature is held at about 90 degrees by the thermostat controlling the temperature in the coolant circuit, if it does get hotter due to a heavy workload in hot weather it will show that.
There is nothing to "hold" it at 90 degrees for so called comfort reasons.

 

There is a small oil/water heat exchanger but it's more for bringing the oil temperature up quicker for emissions/economy reasons, that's why you can see the oil temperature fluctuate a lot more than the water.

The signal that the ecu receives from the coolant temp sensor and what the dash pod displays do not always correlate. The dash pod regulates what you see and if the temp is within a safe tolerance, once the engine has warmed up and the heat maintained it will remain on 90 regardless of minor fluctuations. 

The temp sensor is not hard wired directly to the dash panel, the signal passes through the ECU, can gateway and dash panel - all which have program control and are capable of receiving and interpreting messages how the controller with priority sees fit - that it's what has control and holds the temp at 90 for comfort reasons, this has been the case with VW group vehicles for years. 

 

If if you want to see for yourself then watch live data in block 1 on engine MVBs (coolant temp) and keep an eye on the gauge, working temps will be between 75-105 degrees. 

 

Oil and coolant are two completely different liquids that have different characteristics. Their behaviour doesn't coincide precisely for various reasons. 

[James@RRG_Skoda_Rochdale]

45 minutes ago, Wino said:

^ You're assuming that the coolant temperature reported to the cluster electronics is what the customer/driver is shown on the gauge. Not a safe assumption.

 

 

 

Bang on the money.

[Ootohere]

Re Coolant  & Oil.

The Coolant system is trying to get the Coolant to 90*oC or so to have an efficient engine, so the coolant gets hot quickest, 

this then gets the Oil which is also a coolant up to the efficient operating temperature.

Oil can then get hotter, and the coolant system that has the radiator / fans / air cooling from the front pushing in air flow or drawing air is bringing down the Oil temp as quick as it can, along with the Oil Cooler which is part of the system.

 

Obviously there can be more and better explanations, but the coolant is easier to cool than oil and the coolant cools the oil, 

hence why Coolant is at the 90*oC or so that gets shows. (Just a close temp, not accurate as displayed in many cars.)

 

Then Coolant which is a Anti Freeze / Summer Coolant as well as a rust inhibitor is under pressure and changes the Boiling point of Water(H2o)

Raising the boiling point, and lowering the freezing point.

 

Coolant explained badly for dummies by a dummy.

[logiclee]

19 hours ago, Expatman said:

Funny how you get used to things. My first Yeti was a 2012 model with 1.2 Tsi and oil temperature rarely got above 80, maybe 90 on a long hot run. Now have a brand new 1.2 Yeti with the newer 1.2 Tsi engine and it warms up much quicker and oil temp quickly goes to 90+ and 100 on fast runs. Dealer tells me that is perfectly normal with the latest 1.2 engines. Water temp sits steady as a rock on Normal 90 whatever speed I go.

 

The later 16V engine was designed to warm up quicker, increase economy and reduce emissions. It has dual water circuits, the cylinder head, turbo and heater matrix are on their own circuit to warm the cabin sooner. The turbo, exhaust manifold and cat are now on the bulkhead side of the engine making everything more compact and out of direct airflow which also aids the warm up cycle.

 

Lee

[logiclee]

21 hours ago, Brijo said:

I've got to learn modern petrol tech (see Goodbye/Hello).  I switched to diesels after my Volvo 240 estate, sold back to the dealer in August 1993 after 9 years.  Anyway - 

 

On cold start-up, this Dec 2013 1.2TSI lump goes to 1200rpm steady for perhaps 30-40 seconds, then drops back quickly to about 850.  Sweet as a nut.  Warm or warmish, though, straight to 850.  The inevitable question - is this normal, doctor?  Reassurance would be gratefully received

 

You may also find that in very cold weather the engine may idle at 1000rpm for time. Not sure whether this is a battery thing or a warm up thing. Both our Fabia 105 and Octavia 105 have done this.

 

Lee

[skoda1982]

Oil has a higher boiling point than water,  The chemical bonds that hold oil together are stronger than the ones holding water together - it takes more heat to break them apart. The main reason for this is that the oil molecules are much bigger, so each one has more surface to stick to the other ones.

Edited 28 March, 2017 by skoda1982

[DampDog]

I run a Polo 1.2Tsi, and it's done the party trick from a cold start of briefly sitting  at a steady 1200rpm for perhaps 30ish seconds, then quickly falling back to a a stable 600rpm. Then about 12 months back it became far less predictable. Sometimes it jumps up to 1000rpm then slowly sinks back to 850-600. You can pull up at one set of lights and the tickover will be 600rpm, drive 500 yards to the next set of lights and the tickover will be 800rpm. Tickover is smooth regardless but it's never the same twice. 

 

Car is due for a service in a couple of weeks so I will mention it. As a random guess it feels like a failing or dirty sensor, I know the Polo has a couple of MAP sensors here and there so if I get a minute I may just have a look and give them a quick clean. Other than that a sticky throttle valve?? dunno... I will have a quick look and see if that looks dirty. Luckily they are all easy to get at. Then again it could be a knackered temperature sensor as I understand it the whole point of the fast tickover on start is to put heat into the cat? Who knows? 

 

The main problem is these little high efficiency engines are too complex and fragile for there own good.

Edited 28 March, 2017 by DampDog

[Ootohere]

VW Group after decades of engine building have hopefully got the 1.0TSI that will be in the Yeti replacement sorted.

& it will be a 1.6 Diesel they use not the 1.4TDI 3 Cylinder.

 

Odd that VW can get the components so wrong on the Euro 6 1.4TDI though, 

and then it appears that after all these decades since VW stopped doing Air Cooled that 'Coolant' they use gets the blame....

'Just another VW Group B4ll5 UP!

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/426322-recall-on-diesel-cooling-issue 

[James@RRG_Skoda_Rochdale]

They've just never got the water pumps quite right, since about 2001...

[Ootohere]

Just part of what could be a long list..... Worlds biggest car manufacturer...

1. Water Pump

2. Timing Chains

3. Timing Chain Tensioner

[DampDog]

12 hours ago, Awayoffski said:

Just part of what could be a long list..... Worlds biggest car manufacturer...

1. Water Pump

2. Timing Chains

3. Timing Chain Tensioner

 

Just part of what could be a long list..... Worlds biggest car manufacturer...

1. Water Pump

2. Timing Chains

3. Timing Chain Tensioner

4. Excessive oil consumption

5. DSG gearbox issues

[Expatman]

Skoda ranked 7th in AutoExpress reliability ranking, VW ranked 27th. It is simplistic to pick out individual items then expand that to cover the entire brand. 

[Ootohere]

When they have the same engines, gearboxes, components across VW, Skoda, Seat, Audi the difference can sometimes be how Dealerships deal with Service Campaigns, TPI's, Service & Maintenance, because the same Suppliers are providing components, fluids, software etc.

 

Maybe the Surveys can be questioned as to who responds, and if one Warranty issue is treated as that or 3 items being fixed are counted as 3 Warranty Issues, 

or failed to Diagnose correctly twice, as the Service Desk said, 'They all do that',  or 'Never heard of that before'.

Or 'Leave it with us, we will sort that out and call you when running correctly', here is the keys to the Courtesy car.

[Expatman]

You have obviously had a bad experience with VAG brand. Guess I have been lucky with both cars and dealers. One problem I had was failed seat squab heater, quickly repaired at no cost and car came back fully valeted and cleaned.

[Ootohere]

Sorry but you are wrong, i have never ever personally been subject to having been landed unaware with a lemon from the VW Group, 

just bought ones that others had broken hearts from being landed with and then sorted them out.

The thing is that you live and learn and pay attention to what they get right and what they build that has sh!te parts.

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/424776-misfire-under-load 

Unbelievable that by 2015 & Euro 6 Emissions & after so much experience of Engine Building and early 2015 VW Group was the biggest manufacturers in the world yet Bean Counters and corrupt Managers or CEO's would rather spend on Lawyers and Media advertising than fitting quality parts.

 

Edited 29 March, 2017 by Awayoffski

[Expatman]

Yes, you can have bad experiences but you have to look at the situation as a whole. Inevitably we will hear about bad situations while the vast majority without problems will remain quiet. I am not saying it is okay to have a bad experience but it is inevitable in a mass production basis where cars are engineered to a price customers are prepared to pay. Top reliability in the AutoExpress survey was Tesla, £70k plus cars and few sold. Also in top 3 was Dacia, old proven technology but reliable - if that's all that matters to you.