Major fire in London Tower Block

[KenONeill]

52 minutes ago, moley said:

On the other hand being an IRA, Hamas and Tamil Tiger supporter he probably does know a thing or two about murder. 

And, of course, no-one to the right of Corbyn has ever done anything which could be construed as "supporting a freedom fighter for political gain"; Oh, wait, CONneDUP!

[moley]

5 hours ago, KenONeill said:

And, of course, no-one to the right of Corbyn has ever done anything which could be construed as "supporting a freedom fighter for political gain"; Oh, wait, CONneDUP!

As I said politicians will do almost anything to get into power and I don't trust any of them, but I don't know any to the right of JC or J McD who have made  such ridiculous statements regarding Grenfell tower. 

One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist

[gadgetman]

Out of 78 tested so far, 75 have failed tests. 

 

There's a major argument brewing over the legalities of the cladding an insulation. On the news last night they said the panels never complied with fire safety tests, yet they we signed off by local authorities and fire services as safe/compliant with regulations. 

 

There's also a conflicting fire legislation which also seems to suggest that it's OK, which is what the authority and fire services went by when signing them off under building regulations. 

 

So a case of laws not being updated or removed by superceding legislation? 

 

And that's before we get into British standards v EU legislations (EU legislation apparently bans this type of cladding on high rise residential or commercial buildings). 

Edited 27 June, 2017 by gadgetman

[Aspman]

Have also read reports of supposedly approved insulation failing fire tests when retested. Manufacturers are free to test at any approved testing facilities but I suppose a bit like MOT stations some will be known to be harsher than others.

 

 

[gadgetman]

1 hour ago, Aspman said:

Have also read reports of supposedly approved insulation failing fire tests when retested. Manufacturers are free to test at any approved testing facilities but I suppose a bit like MOT stations some will be known to be harsher than others.

 

 

I think a lot is down to which regulations its tested against, as well as the application. 

 

The test may be fine for low rise, but not for high rise. 

 

Might be compliant to regulation 19xx or BSxxx but might not be compliant to 2xxx or EUxxx. 

 

Saw something earlier about at least 8 conflicting safety standards; all of which are still 'current'. 

 

This isn't just a fire issue with our legislation, but everything. It'll take years to rake over everything, not just the EU ones but mostly our own to remove out of date ones, conflicting ones and updating them. 

Edited 27 June, 2017 by gadgetman

[skomaz]

I think a lot also depends on how the regulations define their terms...   ie what does 'fire resistant' constitute as it can mean a million things unless it is nailed down properly and unfortujnately, in my experience of Regulations and Standards they have, over many years, being progressively moving away from clear definitions to more wolley text that places much of the onus of the definition onto the reader to decide.

[moley]

17 hours ago, skomaz said:

I think a lot also depends on how the regulations define their terms...   ie what does 'fire resistant' constitute as it can mean a million things unless it is nailed down properly and unfortujnately, in my experience of Regulations and Standards they have, over many years, being progressively moving away from clear definitions to more wolley text that places much of the onus of the definition onto the reader to decide.

The media use the term 'fire resistant' when they should use 'fire retardant' most materials will eventually burn, is just a case of how long it takes to ignite. When regulations are changed it is sometimes stipulated that a material cannot be used on new buildings, but they are not removed from older buildings. How much asbestos is still out there?

[domhnall]

A friend of mine is a firefighter and was telling me that the building regs in England allow a load of things that are just downright dangerous (in the view of the fire service) and are not allowed here (Scotland). One of the main things she mentioned was that the gas main (in Scotland) cannot be routed down the main fire escape (which is what the big problem is with a lot of the blocks in England). It seems such an obvious thing that you wonder why such a design was ever allowed.

 

Clearly somethign went horribly worng with the regs in England though because the failure rate is 100% in England so far with only one failure in Scotland. Makes you wonder how this happened - hard to blame the politicians becuase I suspect these things are so technical they rely heavily in expert advice tellign them that what they are passing is the right thing to do. 

 

 

[camelspyyder]

£5k saving or £300k saving.

 

Seems like the £5000 saving on cladding changes may not be true at all:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40453054

[gadgetman]

3 hours ago, camelspyyder said:

£5k saving or £300k saving.

 

Seems like the £5000 saving on cladding changes may not be true at all:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40453054

I think the £5k is the insulation, and the £300k is the change from zinc to aluminium.

 

I wasn't convinced it was only £5k, and have o doubt there will be another cost which will make the real difference nearer to £1m all in.

 

Whilst this probably still doesn't become acceptable to the tragedy, on a risk/cost analysis  (based on a fire which couldn't be contained) it was probably more than acceptable to everyone who signed these panels off around the country.

 

 

But this isn't just residential.  These cladding components are on hospitals, offices, hotels and a whole raft of buildings.  All signed off by authorities and fire services.

[Anzio]

Interesting to read the massive amount of stuff about how insulation burns, but shouldn't we have been hearing something about how fridges explode. If, that is what actually started this fire. 

[Anzio]

Did anyone see the BBC news this morning? Apparently the test which has so far failed all samples tested is the wrong one. 

[gadgetman]

2 hours ago, Anzio said:

Did anyone see the BBC news this morning? Apparently the test which has so far failed all samples tested is the wrong one. 

Should be interesting as all this cladding gets pulled down & skipped.

[Dr Zoidberg]

On 02/07/2017 at 16:44, Anzio said:

Interesting to read the massive amount of stuff about how insulation burns, but shouldn't we have been hearing something about how fridges explode. If, that is what actually started this fire. 

 

It's been reported many times how fridge freezers cause household fires, as they are left running all the time and have plenty of flammable materials. 

 

 

[Anzio]

Yes I agree, so why haven't they been sorted so they can't catch fire. If it's known they can cause fires, why are they made with so many combustible materials?

 

How many fires in flats in Tower blocks in the UK have resulted in the whole building burning?

 

We may never know exactly what started this fire. In the meantime I think the media should focus more on finding out why no one knows who or how many were living in there. How did they get mail, bills etc they must have had to fill a form in sometime.

[Dr Zoidberg]

They know exactly what started the fire - a faulty fridge freezer. 

 

It's also grossly unfair to say nobody knows who was living there. There are numerous sets of evidence including tenancy agreements, benefit claims, utility bills and so on. 

The police are looking at all of these and way more - phone records, takeaway orders etc but none of these is a definitive list and they have to be as sure as they can before releasing names. 

 

In that many households there will always be some people who have come and gone without there being an official record. 

[gadgetman]

Well the crackpot lot already have a theory 

http://www.neonnettle.com/news/2360-british-judge-declares-isis-bomb-caused-grenfell-tower-fire

[Dr Zoidberg]

16 hours ago, gadgetman said:

Well the crackpot lot already have a theory 

http://www.neonnettle.com/news/2360-british-judge-declares-isis-bomb-caused-grenfell-tower-fire

 

I think that's more intentionally fake rather than deluded ravings, looking at other stories on the same site. 

[essexalan]

Fridge freezers will go in to melt down if you leave the door open perhaps in the vain hope of cooling your apartment down, not saying that is what happened.

 

As their appears to have been a number of illegal immigrants and squatters living there then the police have a very hard job identifying everybody. Yes they will know who should have been living there but not who was actually there. I don't doubt a number of the survivors have done a runner leaving the legit survivors to try and get some justice. The numbers just do not add up to me.

[Anzio]

Well, I didn't want to say it, but I'm afraid that is what I was thinking started the fire. It was just too intense too quick to have been a small flat fire.

 

Essexalan, you have put it all in a nutshell, this is why our country is going to the dogs.

[camelspyyder]

I think there is documented evidence the Fire Service attended a fridge fire in the block, then noticed the building was starting to burn too.

[MickA]

Soon afterwards it was confirmed a fridge or fridge freezer had caused the fire which in turn set light to the outside cladding.

The above we do know, later it was also confirmed they had pinned it down to a Hotpoint appliance.

Watching the BBC1 Watchdog programme last week they did a short piece on the appliance that caused the fire, they then said it was a Indesit. Checked they are the same group.

They gave model numbers out that of certain appliances for consumers to check if they had one. We checked our Hotpoint but the model numbers were different but it still doesn't fill me with confidence with our F/F. It makes some awful noises at times and looking online at the reason apparently it's normal for it to crack and pop, something to do with the insulation/plastic casings. The compressor has made some unusual noises at times too, it's not that old either.

[essexalan]

1 hour ago, camelspyyder said:

I think there is documented evidence the Fire Service attended a fridge fire in the block, then noticed the building was starting to burn too.

Odd you mention that because my Brother insists he heard the same report.

[lol-lol]

 

Residence told to stay in their flats for the first two hours that the Tower was burning!

 

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3990506/police-investigate-why-grenfell-tower-residents-were-told-to-stay-in-their-flats-after-blaze-broke-out-leaving-at-least-80-people-dead/

 

FATAL ADVICE 

Police investigate why Grenfell Tower residents were told to stay in their flats after blaze broke out — leaving at least 80 people dead

999 operators urged people to stay put during the fire

By Mike Sullivan, Crime Editor

11th July 2017, 2:14 am

• Click to share on Twitter (Opens in new windock to share on Facebook (Opens in new win

POLICE are investigating why Grenfell Tower residents were told to remain in their flats during last month’s fatal fire.

At least 80 people died after being urged to stay put by 999 operators and council signs erected with fire brigade advice.

[CWARD]

Bad and even worst news.

 

The death toll is expected to go below 80 now and not in the 150+ region some on here had said with the D notice conspiracy and Lily Allen as a mouthpiece. Still bad news but not as bad as it could have been

 

The worst news is that the police have 8 fraud cases and 4 thefts from the flats after the fire.  Some people are just so low and hopefully will be punished to the fullest along with anyone found responsible from the inquest.

http://metro.co.uk/2017/09/19/eight-people-who-lied-to-claim-money-after-grenfell-tower-are-facing-fraud-charges-6938947/

 

Hopefully those displaced will soon all be rehoused without too much disruption and the money raised on their behalf finds it way to them.