Rapid Spaceback 1.6TDi Emissions recall

[TheSea]

1. Skoda Bournemouth did not charge me for carrying out an examination of the car following "the fix" or the process of cleaning out the EGR.

 

2. Although I joined the group action some time ago regarding the illegal fitting of software in order to bypass emissions testing, I had not been aware that there was a completely separate issue developing which involved damage to VAG Group cars by "the fix" that was being applied in order to bypass the original software problem.

I have been in contact with the solicitors for the group action with respect to any damage occurring to cars following the "emissions fix " recall. They have said they will roll this into the initial group action with no further compensation envisaged.

I consider this strange as we have two completely separate incidents here:
1.The illegal fitting of software knowingly into cars in order to circumvent emissions testing.
2. Damage to cars occurring as a result of new software added to VAG cars in order to correct the originally illegal software.

I take these as being two quite separate compensation points and they should be treated as such. Resulting for all owners of the relevant group compensation if you brought a car knowingly supplied by the manufacturer with illegal software and untrue performance figures. You should receive further compensation if following the fix the car is damaged in any way which relates to the fix.

The testing of my car was based purely on the mpg display within the dashboard. But in a way I do have a sort of independent measure which is the number of miles using the mileomter zeroed for a full tank until the tank is near empty. Before the fix this was 710 miles per 60L tank. Following the fix it is around 650 miles per tank. This equates to a 9% fall in fuel efficiency when compared to the pre-fix state.

 

With best wishes,
The Sea

[RMurphy195]

Totally agree with "The Sea" on this, my opinion on his points are

 

1) Illegal software - extremely damaging to my resale value as I have confirmed. Don't forget that allied to this is what happens if you have an accident - your insurance compensation will also be limited as a result.

 

2) Poor fix causing problems. Immediate result is costly damage to your vehicle, long-term durability impacted, poorer fuel consumption, and further damage to VW group brands in terms of resale value. To put it another way, who on earth wold risk buying a VW diesel in the knowledge that VW had modified it so that it needs constant repair? (Don't assume that just because you have, for example, an EGR/DPF/Injectors replaced that the new components won't have a limited life, unless they upgrade them in some way - along with the rest of the fuel and exhaust systems).

 

I'm surprised that the VW reliability legacy ("It's a VW so should retain its value well") is still sometimes being quoted in vehicle tests.

 

I am at stage 1, above, and am not prepared to go to stage 2

[Ootohere]

Illegal Software factory standard as your car was Insured and the DVSA / UK Government never did a Safety Recall.

So where is this Insurance Compensation being limited crap coming from.

 

If the car fails after the fix, loses drive then VW Group will be in the mire insurance / court wise. Maybe in a Coroners Court, 

Corporate Manslaughter even possible if anyone dies due to the dodgy 'Fix' being the cause of loss of power.

 

In Germany seemingly the Government are now talking De-Registering vehicles with the Defeat DEvice Software not removed.

[RMurphy195]

40 minutes ago, Awayoffski said:

 

So where is this Insurance Compensation being limited crap coming from.

 

 

 

Insurers will not pay more than the market replacement value of the vehicle in case of total loss. In addition this value also affects the point at which a vehicle is declared a write-off in case of damage.

Values have dropped due to the scandal.

Therefore - well, you can work out the rest.

And there is no need to be offensive.

Edited 26 July, 2017 by RMurphy195

[Ootohere]

Who am i being offensive to, you?

 

Replacement will be cheaper then will it not, get a pay out on your value buy another for 'much cheapness' where is your loss.

Issue is that many do not even want to pay Market Value no matter the vehicle until you fight your case, so VW Group Scandal makes little difference.

 

Have prices dropped so far in as far as the UK Government are accepting,  and what if it turns out private buyers will rather buy a vehicle without 'The Fix', in the UK 

and look to buy private rather than from VW Group Franchised Dealers where they all have to have The Fix'.

 

Just the fact your used car is a Diesel might not help residuals, and now BMW, Mercedes, Opel and others are looking like being in the same boat then its a Buyers Market is it not.

 

Edited 26 July, 2017 by Awayoffski

[TheSea]

It appears that in the United States VAG owners having the "emissions fix" have a warranty as part of that fix which guarantees a whole range of parts for the car up to 162,000 miles following the fix. It also appears in the United States that the fix is being carried out in an entirely different way and in two stages.
The first stage replaces the software in the car and VAG Groups information is quite clear as to a whole set of effects that it will have on the car (but does not mentioned increased fuel consumption).
The second stage starting in early 2018 will replace a whole series of components within the car in order to extend the durability and reliability of the car. These Include the diesel particulate filter, the diesel oxidation converter and the selective catalytic reduction converter. All of these parts should normally last 150,000 miles. This is a mileage figure which VAG gives.

 

Ladies and gentlemen it appears that a pressure group should be formed of UK VAG owners who should demand a formal warranty which must be extended to all cars having the emissions fix and covering a wide range of parts which undoubtedly will include the above plus the EGR valve, the fan and any other parts within the car which are likely to be adversely affected over time by "the fix."

 

The above information regarding the US was gained from Hypermiller. Keywords US warranty following the fix while UK owners carry three figure repair bills.

I tried to put the link in but for some reason it wouldn't copy over – sorry.

 

Aside: I'm sure we are all interested in the same issues and all want successful resolutions.
It is important that as we have a common aim and interest, that all members on the site communicate respectfully to one another even if they have differing views. It will lead to a much more successful site and broader and better expressed opinions.

[Ootohere]

^^^ 

Are you not already a member of a pressure group or registered with a Legal Firm to take legal actions in a Class Action.

 

Have you contacted your Local MP?

 

You told us previously that people in Spain got compensation, any more news on that one.

There are those in Germany that got a court judgement and the VW Group never appealed the judgement.

[Ootohere]

EDIT, 

sorry missed post at top of page.

 

60 litres is 13.19 Imperial Gallons.

710 divided by 13.19 is 53.82 MPG 

 

650 divided by 13.19 is 49.27 MPG

 

? 

Where does the 72 or 82 mpg figure previously mentioned come from?  Just that Average display on Computer or have you ever brimmed driven 82 miles and only managed to put in 4.546 litres of diesel?

No changes this Summer so far, warmer, more A/C used, different tyres on the car or pressures needing adjusting. ?

 

*The Fix does change the Engine Management, Regens etc, evidence is becoming available from those that monitor fuel use closely because they might run fleets, or have to claim fuel allowances etc, run the vehicles over several years etc.

and there are causes to complain, but someone with all the knowledge getting The Fix done when not compulsory does surprise many.*

Edited 27 July, 2017 by Awayoffski

[Ootohere]

TheSea,

can you say which Euro 5 TDI engine Skoda models in the UK have SCR (Ad-Blue) systems using less Ad-Blue because of a Defeat Device that would need replacing or ones without that could have a SCR System Retro fitted?

& are these part of the VW Group voluntary recall?

[camelspyyder]

The difference between  70-82 mpg and 55-66mpg in a 1.6 TDI could just be due to wind direction.

Last year my F150 average mpg driving to work was 18-20. on a bad headwind day 14. on the best day ever 30. all US gallon mpg. No retuning or different speeds. just environmental changes.

[TheRobinK]

When I got 70-82 mpg on my 1.6 TDI Superb, there was a herd of silver unicorns towing it on golden threads and their farts wafted through my EGR and DPF and washed them crystal clean.

 

My spreadsheet says I've got 52 mpg average this year though.

[ColinD]

Not to mention small things like, the air temp, the air pressure, wind as mentioned. Lots of variables, but no doubt some variance has been recorded. I got a boost in my mpg after inflating my tyres properly, keep forgetting to do that as I do so few miles.

 

There needs to be more 'data' and sadly more scientifically done to prove anything. Given the logic of it all, there is no reason the fix would alter daily use, given the daily use wasn't the cheat...

 

I'm still out to sea if any of this is real, or just speculative marketing. Having worked with a claims insurer in automating  processes, there is only one thing they are truly interested in and it's not you or I.

[Breezy_Pete]

20 minutes ago, ColinD said:

given the daily use wasn't the cheat...

It was though Colin.  A defeat device is something that actively makes emissions worse than they are/were during the test. The behaviour in the test was fine, it was the deliberate programming that took the car out of this 'good behaviour' mode that constitutes the 'defeat device' or 'cheat'. So removing that leaves the car in good behaviour mode all the time, which is better on NOx but worse on most other things.  The only thing VW group haven't had to change is how the car behaved within the test environment.

[RMurphy195]

4 minutes ago, Wino said:

It was though Colin.  A defeat device is something that actively makes emissions worse than they are/were during the test. The behaviour in the test was fine, it was the deliberate programming that took the car out of this 'good behaviour' mode that constitutes the 'defeat device' or 'cheat'. So removing that leaves the car in good behaviour mode all the time, which is better on NOx but worse on most other things.  The only thing VW group haven't had to change is how the car behaved within the test environment.

This viewpoint is clearly correct, since the conventional view of removing the defeat software would result in vehicles failing their emissions test at the annual MOT.

[Breezy_Pete]

Not MOT, but the Type Approval test.

UK MOTs on diesels test nothing gas-wise, only visible smoke.

Edited 28 July, 2017 by Wino

[ColinD]

@Wino lol it's a good job I don't use logic in my day job... oh crap. Yes of course I'm being an idiot (again). Better results under test... /goes of to hide in a darkened hole.

[RMurphy195]

2 hours ago, Wino said:

Not MOT, but the Type Approval test.

UK MOTs on diesels test nothing gas-wise, only visible smoke.

Not even CO?

[Breezy_Pete]

Nope. 

[rapidhus]

One possible theory that "the fix" damages engines and should be avoided.

Just founded it on YouTube, the author has other videos explaining the function of EGR system.

 

 

[Breezy_Pete]

Great find @rapidhus. That fella makes a lot of sense. 

The pre-existence of  differing levels of soot clogging inside the EGR and therefore variable effects caused by trying to pull more gas through it post-'fix' hadn't really occurred to me as an explanation for the variation in the effects of the update on different cars.  Not sure how I didn't think of it now!

[RMurphy195]

Some questions have existed in my mind about the problems with fixed engines

1) "Why are some engines affected and some not?".

2) "Why didn't the possibility get picked up by VW in its own testing?"

3) "Why are VW apparently not pursuing these questions?"

 

In a previous life I was a systems and software developer - and whenever things went wrong one of the first things to investigate is "What has changed recently" (I've solved some long-standing problems by asking this question i.e. "When did the problem start, and what changes were made just before then"). We also had Risk Assessment which went something like "What is the likelihood of something happening" range 0 - 10 where 0 = none(very rare!) to 10 (All the time), plus importantly what is the impact where 0 = none, and 10 = severe damage to company's reputation/share price. So you could have a low risk (only 1% of customers affected) but with an impact of 10 - you wouldn't take the risk. Somewhere in between you would have mitigation strategies.

 

Given the video that Rapidhus has found, if what it contains is correct, or even partially correct, then there is one possible answer to question 1.

 

I would suggest that VW probably did their testing on "clean" engine setups, but not real-world testing i.e. "Partially clogged systems". This I would think represents the majority of vehicles.

 

The graphs that the video shows, if correct, surely should be part of VW's own research so the knowledge is already in their possession, and therefore was simply ignored somewhere along the line. Perhaps VW engineering flagged up the possibility and a "Business Risk" was taken by management for some reason.

 

A business risk that has blown up in thier faces - and that of their customers, because the impact was underestimated or ignored, and perhaps the risk level as well.

Edited 2 August, 2017 by RMurphy195

[Bonovox]

I have one question please help. I have engine 1.6 tdi 90 hp. In neutral (when the car is on parking) I can not reach more than 2500 rpm. While driving in neutral rpm can reach more than 5000 rpm. Last month I have increased consumption about 8 liters in urban driving.

If somebody knows why this happened  please answer .

 

[camelspyyder]

I have driven other cars that were rev-limited in Park or Neutral. Was it not like this before?

[Bonovox]

51 minutes ago, camelspyyder said:

I have driven other cars that were rev-limited in Park or Neutral. Was it not like this before?

I can not remember  , after changing fuel filter ( I have problem with starting my engine) than I noticed all control lamps flashing on the board and since than I think everything is different now.Last week glow plug lamps flashed during driving . I connect tester nothing wrong show up.

[cypher007]

On ‎27‎/‎07‎/‎2017 at 10:03, TheSea said:

It appears that in the United States VAG owners having the "emissions fix" have a warranty as part of that fix which guarantees a whole range of parts for the car up to 162,000 miles following the fix. It also appears in the United States that the fix is being carried out in an entirely different way and in two stages.
The first stage replaces the software in the car and VAG Groups information is quite clear as to a whole set of effects that it will have on the car (but does not mentioned increased fuel consumption).
The second stage starting in early 2018 will replace a whole series of components within the car in order to extend the durability and reliability of the car. These Include the diesel particulate filter, the diesel oxidation converter and the selective catalytic reduction converter. All of these parts should normally last 150,000 miles. This is a mileage figure which VAG gives.

 

Ladies and gentlemen it appears that a pressure group should be formed of UK VAG owners who should demand a formal warranty which must be extended to all cars having the emissions fix and covering a wide range of parts which undoubtedly will include the above plus the EGR valve, the fan and any other parts within the car which are likely to be adversely affected over time by "the fix."

 

The above information regarding the US was gained from Hypermiller. Keywords US warranty following the fix while UK owners carry three figure repair bills.

I tried to put the link in but for some reason it wouldn't copy over – sorry.

 

Aside: I'm sure we are all interested in the same issues and all want successful resolutions.
It is important that as we have a common aim and interest, that all members on the site communicate respectfully to one another even if they have differing views. It will lead to a much more successful site and broader and better expressed opinions.

this is what a fix looks like US style:

 

 

not just a software patch. also seems VW in the US are doing a buy back if you don't want the car anymore.

 

I think in the UK the trading standards are far too toothless, on everything not just cars, and in the EU I think there is a potential conflict of interests as Germany controls the EU.

Edited 17 October, 2017 by cypher007