Suspension Failure

[silver1011]

On 12/07/2017 at 18:14, Padredante said:

Very reasonable price to fit new replacement spring. Car was back on the road this morning at 10.00.

 

This is the second broken spring I've replaced. The first was on the offside front and went whilst reversing out of my drive..

 

It is recommended to replace springs in pairs.

[Padredante]

12 hours ago, CWARD said:

Your obviously not happy so get down to the dealer that sold you it, take it to trading standards, take VAG to court. I expect the same result as you are getting on here. Out of interest when did you last inspect the springs for corrosion? 

 

Now, now, there's no need to get all sarcastic honey! If you disagree with my view on this that's fine, but take a chill pill and try not to get personal... Thank you.

 

When you say "I expect the same result as you are getting on here" I thought (until now), it had all been quite a healthy debate... I don't think everyone disagrees.

 

When did I last inspect the springs for corrosion? Well, I'm not that anal about it but, about two months ago I looked at them when I stood under the car at the same time as the MOT examiner and guess what? all four looked to be in great condition.  In fact the reason for this last spring braking wasn't due to corrosion as it hardly any surface rust on it let alone deep corrosion. I imagine it's more to do with the constant compressing / flexing affecting the weakest part which eventually fails. I would say that in order to detect these weak points before they fail would require all springs to be removed and scanned with a Rigaku portable X-ray diffractometer called "X-ray stress analyser" but I have better things to do most weekends.

[Padredante]

5 hours ago, sweetooth said:

I remember reading an honest john article where he suggested that european springs dont  end with a pig tail,but japanese  ones  do and this is a contributary factor to the springs breaking

 

Now I do recall reading about this somewhere 

[Padredante]

4 hours ago, silver1011 said:

 

It is recommended to replace springs in pairs.

 

Depends on who you speak to but I wouldn't always go along with that view. I think if the car was particularly old and the new spring might make it sit higher one side and / or would affect road holding then I'd replace the pair. I might also replace the pair if a spring broke after a nasty bump or pothole as logic would tell me that both springs took the hit.

 

Some say that if one spring has gone, then the other should also be replaced as they wear at the same rate and therefore the second spring would fail soon after. I don't agree with that view simply because they don't go on to say you should replace the front pair also which (in most cases) would be the in the same state of wear as the rear springs.

 

I think you need to make a decision depending on the circumstance.

[CWARD]

I notice from your previous posts that you've had a rear shock replaced as well as a front spring on a car you bought second hand. Have you considered that the car may not have been treated so well previously, has it had a towbar, still fitted or removed. 

I'm with the others on replacing suspension components in pairs, not that it will change your mind.

[silver1011]

I think the rationale is the opposite spring is as old and has covered as many miles and been exposed to the same environment as the failed spring. The failure of one spring is as good an indication of an imminent second failure than you'll get.

 

The effort to take time off work/weekend, order a single spring, book the car in, get it up on the ramps, strip down the suspension, wait around/get home, refit the single spring etc. warrants changing the other in my eyes.

 

Had the spring broken (i.e. just the pigtail) and allowed you to continue using the car for a day or so then I'd see your reasoning. Given that the failure involved a breakdown, the necessity for recovery, considerable inconvienience and damage to the vehicle, then for the sake of an extra £50 for a second spring it would be the default decision for me.

 

Time, money and effort saved and the avoidance of driving around knowing the other original spring is likely to fail at anytime. Each to their own though, we all think differently.

 

Edited 14 July, 2017 by silver1011

[chimaera]

The main reason for replacing springs and dampers in pairs is to avoid imbalance across the axle. An old spring will be weaker than a new one, likewise the damper, so if you only replace one side you now have different spring/damper characteristics on each side of the axle which can lead to instability in ride and handling and potentially cause an accident.

[lowedb]

It's not just VAG that's for sure. Personally I had broken springs on my Rover 75s (1999 and 2004) as well as a 2002 Audi A3. I know of people who have had the same on Citroens and Fords.

 

As I understand it the metal is actually a better metal than used to be used, but it is surface treated by shot peening (firing lead shot at it) which modifies the surface. Corrosion then affects this surface treatment allowing cracks to start. And BTW its nothing new either. Leaf springs used to be notorious for breaking.

 

I don't believe its anything to do with road surfaces. The Audi that had failures was always driven on pretty good roads, and almost no speed bumps. I had it from new so knew the history. It had one front and one rear break but as I replaced them in pairs the others could have been just behind.

[silver1011]

The BMW E46 was renowned for eating rear springs too.

 

The lower cups held water in which the pigtails were sat.

 

Only a matter of time.

 

More worrying was that I'd not even noticed they'd both (rears) broken until service time.

[Pesmog]

A guy at work had a spring fail on his car last year when on the motorway. The bit that broke punctured the tyre and he had a minor crash.

 

I have had loads of trouble with front springs on my Fiat. It has had four springs fail in six years, even the replacements failed and they were non-Fiat factor parts . It is the only car I have ever had this problem with in over a million miles of driving.

[Padredante]

14 hours ago, CWARD said:

I notice from your previous posts that you've had a rear shock replaced as well as a front spring on a car you bought second hand. Have you considered that the car may not have been treated so well previously, has it had a towbar, still fitted or removed. 

I'm with the others on replacing suspension components in pairs, not that it will change your mind.

 

No, no tow bar. Me and the missus have always made a point of avoiding cars that had or had had a tow bar because of the potential high load to rear suspension, especially with single axle trailers / caravans. Also regular towing puts additional stresses on the engine so, yeah I'm with you on this one.

 

Yes, it had crossed our minds that the previous owner could have give it some stick but when all 'looks' OK and there are no signs of abuse at pre purchase how can you really ever tell?

 

As I mentioned previously, I would consider changing springs in pairs under certain circumstances.

 

"not that it will change your mind" ...Now why did you have to go and spoil our chat by adding that spiteful, hurtful little dig?

 

It was going oh so well XX 

[Padredante]

14 hours ago, silver1011 said:

I think the rationale is the opposite spring is as old and has covered as many miles and been exposed to the same environment as the failed spring. The failure of one spring is as good an indication of an imminent second failure than you'll get.

 

The effort to take time off work/weekend, order a single spring, book the car in, get it up on the ramps, strip down the suspension, wait around/get home, refit the single spring etc. warrants changing the other in my eyes.

 

Had the spring broken (i.e. just the pigtail) and allowed you to continue using the car for a day or so then I'd see your reasoning. Given that the failure involved a breakdown, the necessity for recovery, considerable inconvienience and damage to the vehicle, then for the sake of an extra £50 for a second spring it would be the default decision for me.

 

Time, money and effort saved and the avoidance of driving around knowing the other original spring is likely to fail at anytime. Each to their own though, we all think differently.

 

 

I partly agree but would you consider replacing the front pair at the same time also?

 

Or are front springs heavier duty due to the fact that they need to carry the extra weight of the engine along with the drivers weight at all times?

[Breezy_Pete]

8 hours ago, Padredante said:

Or are front springs heavier duty due to the fact that they need to carry the extra weight of the engine along with the drivers weight at all times?

Yes.

[CWARD]

Also the fronts have to contend with the braking forces that transfer the weight to the front

[pablomax]

I've never had a coil spring break, but on an old Pejero I had the front torsion bars snap 3 times. This was an aftermarket product, which wasn't the best it seems Once was on a trip. Lucky for me, I happened to still have the OEM in the back.

 

On a side note, I am not sure if you can but it here, but in the states, a lot of guys (including myself) use a spray called fluid film. It is a kind of waxy lubricant and protectant. It stays sort of wet, so when there are stones or other things hitting underneath, it closes back over the hole in the layer.

When I got a new Jeep Wrangler, I sprayed the entire under side of the truck. Then repeated it the 2nd year. When I sold the Jeep at the end of the 2nd year, I hit it with a jet washer to clean it and it looked like the day I bought it. Not even surface rust.

When I moved to Germany last year, I took a case of this stuff with me and hit the under side of my superb, and while in general I do not like this car very much, I will say that at least it has no rust underneath.

Also, you can use this stuff on your battery terminals and door hinges. And bike chain, and spades and anything that sits outside.

 

 

 

 

[williamshatnerspants]

I'm wondering if the combination of salted roads and lots of potholes IS a key point here.

 

In my years driving in New Zealand a Australia I've not heard of any car springs breaking. We have potholes of course, but the larger ones are generally in urban environments, (30mph speed limits). From what I have read, the UK seems to have more potholes on the open road, and they get hit 'at speed'.

[Padredante]

On 15/07/2017 at 11:08, CWARD said:

Also the fronts have to contend with the braking forces that transfer the weight to the front

 

So, the front springs are heavier duty because they have to contend with more weight (engine & driver), and forces (weight transfer under breaking), which to me says that in terms of longevity, they are on par with the rear springs that have an easier life. If it's viewed that the rear springs should always be replaced in pairs due to the wear rate being relative, then the front springs should be replaced at the same time?

[Ootohere]

It is up to you really how what it says to you.

 

Now if you look at a Skoda Fabia vRS Hatch or Estate. (or other models for that case.)

 

The Estate is 9 3/4" longer than the Hatch.

The Estate has a Kerb Weight given as 5kg lighter than the hatch but Skoda put 25 kg ballast weight on the rear crash bar of the hatches.

The estate has stronger rear springs than the hatch even though they both have almost the same max gross carrying weight, the estate is 5 kg lower than hatch.

 

The thing is that the estate is often shown to be quicker than the hatch and they actually are under acceleration, and that is because the hatch drops at the rear and the front goes light and the TC activates and then power can be cut because of wheel spin.

 

This was a Skoda / VW fix, instead of fitting the correct suspension for the hatch, have it quicker, lighter, cheaper than the estate and the sister cars Polo GTI Ibiza Cupra, Audi A1 195 and in the same VED band they sandbagged the Hatch.

Vorsprung Durch Technik.

In the Euro 5 era or Much lightness, cut back of sound deadening, wheel arch trim, thinner glass, less paint etc etc Design & Manufacture and test and bolt on 25kg of weight and fasteners to the rear of a vehicle and inhibit the handling, 

have the brakes work harder etc.  

Have the lightest of the 5 sister vehicles in the higher VED band because it is sand bagged yet it runs 205/40 R17 tyres like the estate and the others have 215/40R 17 and are heavier but have identical Engines and DSG Gearboxes.

(The Polo GTI gets the battery in the boot and no spare tyre as standard unlike the Skodas to give it better more composed Engineered handling...)

 

PS.

Obviously all cars will have a driver on every trip, 

could be 60kg, could be 160kg, then there might be a passenger in the front of any weight.

Some even have passengers in the rear, some maybe always have, especially with a Superb seeing as how many are Taxi's and Airport Transport, then there might be luggage or goods carried because or Taxi / Commercial carriers, 

that is what the car needs engineered for, carrying a Max Gross / Revenue weights. 

That applies to all cars from City Cars right up to a Superb which is getting on for as long a car as you get in the UK without being a SUV / Large People carrier, 7 seaters plus..

Edited 18 July, 2017 by Awayoffski

[CWARD]

3 hours ago, Padredante said:

 

So, the front springs are heavier duty because they have to contend with more weight (engine & driver), and forces (weight transfer under breaking), which to me says that in terms of longevity, they are on par with the rear springs that have an easier life. If it's viewed that the rear springs should always be replaced in pairs due to the wear rate being relative, then the front springs should be replaced at the same time?

 

Not really they are already heavier duty. The recommendation is to change in pairs on the same axle when it comes to suspension as well as brakes and tyres as the wear is usually uniform. It is your car so run it how you like, I can't be bothered arguing for the sake of it. 

Edited 18 July, 2017 by CWARD

[valv1866]

I had a similar thing happen on mine. Friday morning about 6 weeks ago, reversing off the drive and an almighty bang from the rear. Got out couldn't see anything. Continued on to work which is a 50 mile journey. Some rattling from the rear so I dropped it into a garage close to my office.

 

Result was broken O/S/R spring - replaced with a genuine one from Skoda.

 

I have a Care Care Warranty but because I paid for it and didnt call them at the time they have not refunded the money yet! 

 

Oh and they will only replace the broken part!

[Padredante]

On 17/07/2017 at 00:46, williamshatnerspants said:

From what I have read, the UK seems to have more potholes on the open road, and they get hit 'at speed'.

 

Well, in my experience that's not the case. I'm not saying I've never hit a pothole at speed, but it's certainly never been a common occurrence. In the main, the majority of potholes I've seen have been where I'd expect them i.e. small country lanes/ tracks and these type of roads normally 'force' a low speed anyway. What I would agree to is the high number of speed bumps that seem to pepper most roads here now but I tend to 'straddle' these where / when possible but again, if I've been unable to straddle because of a parked car or suchlike, I can't ever remember going over one at speed i.e. anything over 5mph.

[Padredante]

28 minutes ago, Padredante said:

 

Well, in my experience that's not the case. I'm not saying I've never hit a pothole at speed, but it's certainly never been a common occurrence. In the main, the majority of potholes I've seen have been where I'd expect them i.e. small country lanes/ tracks and these type of roads normally 'force' a low speed anyway. What I would agree to is the high number of speed bumps that seem to pepper most roads here now but I tend to 'straddle' these where / when possible but again, if I've been unable to straddle because of a parked car or suchlike, I can't ever remember going over one at speed i.e. anything over 5mph.

 

I still think the amount of springs that break on relatively young, low mileage cars be they Skoda's, Fords, BM's or what have you, is down to either poor quality materials or poor manufacturing process (or both). I also think there's too much general public acceptance that it's just the way things are.

 

I've had a number of bikes including some high performance wrist rockets in the past i.e. R1's, Fireblades, GSXR's and I've NEVER had a spring on the mono-shocks go and I've NEVER heard of it happening to any of my mates or anyone else in over 40 years. So why should this be?

[Breezy_Pete]

31 minutes ago, Padredante said:

So why should this be?

 

Probably because the consequences of spring breakage on a two-wheeled vehicle are likely to be much more catastrophic/life-threatening, so the safety factor should be higher?

[williamshatnerspants]

Would be interesting to see photos of the broken spring and comment from a metallurgist.

[Padredante]

9 hours ago, Wino said:

 

Probably because the consequences of spring breakage on a two-wheeled vehicle are likely to be much more catastrophic/life-threatening, so the safety factor should be higher?

....And because it's a car it's not to so important?

 

This is exactly my point. I believe common spring damage / failure is simply due to crap springs and that roads, potholes, salt or whatever are just the'excuses' we are fed, which most of us just 'chew and swallow'

 

If higher quality springs are fitted to a motorcycle's suspension (for whatever reason), that result in zero failures, then the same should be done for all other vehicle types. My guess is as I said before, that higher quality means a higher cost and therefore less markup.