Has Germanys motor industry cheating killed the diesel

[Sad555]

First VAG then Mercedes now BMW ALL CHEATING and has already affected the perception of all diesel engines and sales,values falling all due to the scandals,after years of developement and refinement by all manufactures to give us great refined diesel cars with great mpg and convincing motorist diesel was the way to go along with government aid/help .In the space of just over a year it look like the beginning of the end of diesel,thank you  the greedy cheating german car industry.

Edited 21 July, 2017 by Sad555

[vrskeith]

Have, others actually proved they are not cheating ? Ford, GM, JLR...........

 

Who is the actual agreed World Governing Test Body for Diesels etc.

[mac11irl]

Ehh... mitsubishi admitted cheating all the way back to the 90's.

Renault got raided... 

Its not just German manufacturers. 

And god knows the US industry has been and probably still is up to all sorts..

[Aspman]

I thought BMW so far had been tested and found ok.

[Sad555]

It now becomes clearer that it's a conspiracy!

[lol-lol]

 

Is it not just that, a part from VW who actually built cars to cheat the test ie recognise that it was on the rolling road and go in to cheat mode, that the other BMW, Merc, Renault, clearly had tuned there emission systems to be at their best during the test ie when the various engine map parameters, the capacities of the emission processing systems, and the trip points for being these systems coming in to play, and in fact switching them off when they might contribute to harming the engine, all which was allowed within the stated rules, which is a different matter entirely.

 

Now government all over the world are holding them to account these manufacturers are being brow beaten in to promising that during the next service of the cars they will be remapped to act in a better way with NOX output particularly? 

[XLBaconDoubleCheese]

It's the last 20 years of governments that have told everyone diesel is the best way to go thats the issue. Now it's becoming clear it isnt all that good for the environment and they're getting the bad press etc. 

[lol-lol]

25 minutes ago, matt1chelski said:

It's the last 20 years of governments that have told everyone diesel is the best way to go thats the issue. Now it's becoming clear it isnt all that good for the environment and they're getting the bad press etc. 

The excise duty on diesel has been the same as petrol for many years.  

True road tax was a bit cheaper for diesels due to lower co2. Company car tax also based on co2 but diesel had a 3 group penalty.

If you used less fuel as a benefit in kind the a bit less tax.

But i do about 40k car miles per year and still did not find diesels worth having with their more expensive buy price and usually less performance for the same hp. My 1.8 tsi L&K would eat a diesel vrs for breakfast on acceleration.

[vrskeith]

18 hours ago, Sad555 said:

It now becomes clearer that it's a conspiracy!

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/german-car-industry-under-eu-cartel-investigation

[XLBaconDoubleCheese]

19 hours ago, lol-lol said:

The excise duty on diesel has been the same as petrol for many years.  

True road tax was a bit cheaper for diesels due to lower co2. Company car tax also based on co2 but diesel had a 3 group penalty.

If you used less fuel as a benefit in kind the a bit less tax.

But i do about 40k car miles per year and still did not find diesels worth having with their more expensive buy price and usually less performance for the same hp. My 1.8 tsi L&K would eat a diesel vrs for breakfast on acceleration.

 

Oh I totally agree. Had a mate go on about wanting a Golf GTD for months, I told him he does nowhere near the miles to warrant it, wouldn't listen when I said a GTI would be quicker & cheaper. 

[Ootohere]

70 mph is 70 mph be it in a diesel or petrol engine Golf so speed wise they are equal unless getting up to the car ahead a few second sooner matters.

As to cheaper then thankfully all the publicity might have that being the diesels that are going to have lower asking prices.

[JCP]

Diesel has always been an odd choice for light passenger vehicles -is is pretty valuable for railway locomotives heavy goods vehicles or ships where monstrous loads require vast torque-but diesel for cars? Noisy, smelly and not useful whenever I go through a supermarket carpark and see and hear the rattly smelly astras and golfs with drivers who for a few mpg willingly drive cars which sound and smell like scrap yard candidates and which are only economically sane in the hands of their third owners -if ever. The obsession of earlier governments with CO2 emissions is to blame and now the population pay in unpleasant health issues for NOx emissions which result from these unsuitable vehicles.

I had a perfectly good diesel but petrol cars are smoother sweeter and less silly.

[vrskeith]

11 hours ago, vrskeith said:

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/german-car-industry-under-eu-cartel-investigation

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/audi-begins-voluntary-recall-850000-v6-and-v8-diesel-cars

[Ootohere]

Love how the 1.2,1.6 & 2.0 litre TDI get 'The Fix' which can be software or software and hardware changes, 

but the premium cars just need a 'tweak' of software / engine management, and it is so good the 'VW Group can 'Future Proof Audi's, VW's & Porsche against 'Bans; when they have no idea what the Future might hold in various countries or cities if more testing is required or the likes of a London Mayor was to introduce dome legislation regarding the affected vehicles 'Tweaked' or not 'Tweaked'.

[Sad555]

Well it's started,rumours in the papers of increased Diesel TAX and soon with less diesel cars on the road up will go petrol tax to cover less tax from diesel............. deja vu.

[Sad555]

There's more from the german car industry.

[vrskeith]

BMW Reject Cartel https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/bmw-rejects-cartel-and-emissions-manipulation-allegations 

 

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/german-car-industry-under-eu-cartel-investigation

[VRS Mike]

I think it's all an excuse to get diesel motorists to buy new cars, will keep the motoring industry in  business for a few more years. Next stage will be banning petrols and forcing everyone to trade them in against electric

[skomaz]

As and when anything happens to restrict diesel car movements then I'll react but until then I'm not going to react to the scaremongers.

 

As for driving them - they are nowhere near as agricultural as people make out and are much better than they used to be.  Some of us also like the way they drive and have found that the additional purchase price etc. is readily recouped.

[XLBaconDoubleCheese]

4 hours ago, skomaz said:

As for driving them - they are nowhere near as agricultural as people make out and are much better than they used to be.  Some of us also like the way they drive and have found that the additional purchase price etc. is readily recouped.

 

Our BMW sounds nice enough, my Fabia sounded good with an exhaust, some of the V6 diesels sound fantastic and I enjoy how they drive. 

 

The costs cant be ignored though. They're more to buy in the first place, diesel isnt cheaper than petrol like it once was, and if you do a normal length commute then you'll undoubtedly be better off with a petrol now, they've improved a fair bit economy wise. Yes, if you do lots of long trips then you'll recoup some money, but the average commute will see a diesel being turned off before it's even hot. 

 

The sweet spot has passed I think, there's too many additional bits added to get them 'clean' enough for emissions tests which firstly only work when they get properly hot and secondly, cost a fortune to replace. My Fabia wouldnt get properly hot on a 15 min trip to work and managed 40 mpg or so. It only got away with it because it had the EGR removed and no DPF, plus I would drive it spiritedly fairly often to save anything else getting coked up. My uncle has had a range of fairly new diesels thinking they're the cheapest to run for the commute. He's had issues with the EGR valves, issues with Turbos coking up, issues with DPFs not regenerating and on top of all that, it doesn't return much more MPG than a equivalent petrol would. 

 

I currently use a Panda with a 1.4 Fire engine in, donkeys years old design, not especially efficient but still does 40mpg the same as the Fabia did. If you're doing the trips, then you can make them pay but in reality the majority of people just dont do the miles. 

[Ootohere]

Not everyone commutes some travel and work travelling, they are 'Travellers' or as now called 'Representatives / reps'.

Then some travel and might have 4 or more onboard travelling.

 

Diesel is not cheaper than petrol anymore, but then it can be the same price and maybe 1 pence a litre more as is right now.

 

Horses for courses or maybe the right motor for the right job, but then some just have one motor and having a 4 seater might not do the job for them year round.

[XLBaconDoubleCheese]

23 minutes ago, Awayoffski said:

Not everyone commutes some travel and work travelling, they are 'Travellers' or as now called 'Representatives / reps'.

Then some travel and might have 4 or more onboard travelling.

 

Diesel is not cheaper than petrol anymore, but then it can be the same price and maybe 1 pence a litre more as is right now.

 

Horses for courses or maybe the right motor for the right job, but then some just have one motor and having a 4 seater might not do the job for them year round.

 

Oh yeah I get that, for reps and people who drive all day yeah, diesel will always win but it's the average Joe who does a 10 mile commute each day and buys a diesel because 'it's cheaper to run' who then gets a shock when it's saving him nothing and things start to go wrong. 

[Ootohere]

'Average Joe' should and can get what they need, lots of Joes and Janes tow caravans, boats, trailers etc.

 

Average Joes & Janes got scrappage deals in 2009 to get shot of high emissions vehicles and put the £2,000 into buying Euro 5 Dirty Diesels etc, 

some now just fit for scrap like a Hyundai 120 or Kia Rio....& many others which are economic and emissions disasters.

 

Joes were even buying Defeat Device fitted Skoda, VW. Audi and SEAT Euro 5 TDI's with the UK Tax Payers aiding that and VW Group profiting, 

so maybe that money should be reclaimed from VW Group now.

Edited 24 July, 2017 by Awayoffski

[lol-lol]

56 minutes ago, matt1chelski said:

 

Oh yeah I get that, for reps and people who drive all day yeah, diesel will always win but it's the average Joe who does a 10 mile commute each day and buys a diesel because 'it's cheaper to run' who then gets a shock when it's saving him nothing and things start to go wrong. 

 

Even high milers like me I do not see the advantage of using a diesel over petrol because in some, if not many cases, that is not a very significant gap.

 

Reps and workers like me who visit various of my offices, or clients, I often do around 1,000 miles a week or more, but the fuel goes on a fuel card and is passed back to me as a Benefit in Kind so a get a few thousands quid appear on my P11D but employees who are taxed on their fuel this way will only pay 20% or 40% on that fuel so even if the diesel car used £500 less fuel the difference is only £100 or £200 over the year on the BIK as taxed.

 

When running various diesel cars, in traffic and zooming around they rarely seem to get above 50 mpg and there are plenty of petrols that can comfortable get 45 mpg.  If I was doing a lot more on mainland Europe I could see diesel making sense, at least until they start closing the price gap and reversing it to what we tend to have in the UK ie that diesel is more expensive but in the UK just cannot see it, not even for a high miler like me and many of us who have fuel cards.  If I towed then a diesel might make sense but otherwise, and especially considering diesel are often significantly slower accelerating even when they have the same hp, ie on the 105 hp petrol/diesel choices for example, just cannot see it.  They take longer to warm up and with all the current pollution concerns I cannot imagine ever going back to diesel.  Great marine engines and trucks etc but not for me in a car, two decades of being forced to drive them as company cars was enough for a lifetime, might slightly more bearable with DSG.    

 

  

[Sad555]

Will it never end for Germany ,more cheat news,from today's Times