Super unleaded

[SWBoy]

15 minutes ago, BigEjit said:

Makes it as cheap as any other fuel looking at pence per mile.

Provided whatever fuel you use meets the minimum spec for whatever car you're talking about, isn't pence per mile the bottom line?

 

That's why I use standard UK 95 RON in both my 1.4TSI Octavia and my 1.0 Citroen C1 - the cost per mile with both of them is lower than using 98/99 RON even when taking into account any mpg differences (there isn't any) and any loyalty benefits.

[mikey vrs]

I used to run my previous octavia vrs on super unleaded all the time,i had a holiday in ireland & could only find normal unleaded & after a day or so i could feel the car wasnt as smooth or responsive as it used to feel,once back in the uk & a tank of super unleaded had been through the system the car felt more responsive,my current car a Golf R is always run on super unleaded & i think (would need to go look) but im sure it says super unleaded on inside of the fuel filler cap cover. 

[flybynite]

1 hour ago, AwaoffSki said:

As to the 300ps stuff, odd then that 1.4 TSI 132-136 kW (180-185 PS) VW Engines are recommended 98 Super

 

I was talking about the EA888 gen3, (as was the OP). The 1.4 is a different engine, different map, different pinch points in the timing. Not surprising at all it may need a different octane at a lower power setting especially with the twincharger.  

 

1 hour ago, AwaoffSki said:

No 98 super sold in the UK anymore

 

The guy I was replying to lives in Australia 

 

As said above, put in a few tankfulls and try it. If it works for you then you have the answer.

 

If you are comparing one fuel to another make sure the outside conditions are the same tank to tank as they will make more of a difference to the engine than 95/98 or 99 will.

 

If you really want to know what a fuel is doing to your engine you need to generate a full datalog during normal use. No need to be on a Dyno infact better do it during real world use. You can see the difference there when you look at all the engine parameters, particularly timing as these engines tend to nail the AFR to stoichiometric unless messed with.

 

 

 

 

[Ootohere]

Or if just a motorist, just make sure you are running the car all year through the seasons, and you are paying the fuel and servicing, and then watch year to year.

Be aware of your servicing regimes, and if talking about fuels and suppliers at least find out where and who the fuels are supplied by.

 

As to how a car behaves, same car, same fuels, different drivers on different drives, different fuel efficiency usually.

Those that pay for thew fuel will usually notice if bothered.

Same as with a DSG equipped car, get in and wait for the car to remember you love and care for it and treat it nicer than that nasty person yesterday.

 

UK, 

95, 97 or 99 ron minimum at Filling Stations no 98 ron as oft mentioned, other countries may have 98 ron.

Edited 8 January, 2018 by AwaoffSki

[SkodaAsh]

Wow. So many choices of fuel in the UK. 95, 97 and 99. Why a 97 choice? Is is significantly cheaper than 99?

[Gerrycan]

I found @Exeterj post on Ethanol content of UK petrol very interesting because I was unaware that it was not 'mandatory' in super unleaded fuels.

I disagree with @AwaoffSki that 'cars love ethanol'. That is a very broad statement that does not stand up to close scrutiny.

Ethanol came to prominence during historically high petrol prices as a means of reducing  dependence on foreign (principally middle east) imported fuels but now fuel costs are lower ( and the US has developed its own internal resources) however ethanol continues to be included in petrol on the basis of its supposedly 'green' credentials rather than actual performance or environmental benefits.

'Flex-fuel' engines developed here in Australia and the US were capable of running pure petrol or varying ethanol mixes to E85 (85% ethanol and 15% petrol).

Generally when they ran on the 108 Octane E85 they were capable of generating a little more power but at the expense of 30% worse fuel consumption because ethanol has much less calorific content per litre (roughly 1.4 litres of ethanol to match one litre of petrol). 

A 5% ethanol addition to petrol does not lower calorific value by much (1.5%?) and will raise the Octane by one rating (ie from 94 to 95) but otherwise it is pretty harmless in that it is not in sufficient concentration to corrode unmodified fuel lines. However any petrol/ethanol mix will separate if left to stand for a while with the lighter ethanol floating on top (that can't be good). E85 is also not a good starting fuel in very cold (current US weather) temperatures, and it is very hygroscopic, so there are few issues with ethanol.

An engine that is designed to properly utilise the very high (113) Octane rating of pure ethanol is capable of very good performance and economy, one such engine was designed by Ricardo Engineering as a diesel engine substitute for the US years back but it failed to ignite sufficient commercial interest.

 

If an engine is capable of utilising a higher RON fuel then the improvement in fuel consumption is said to be roughly 1% for each RON increase but if we also take into consideration that UK 95 Octane fuel has 5% ethanol and 1.5% less calories then the potential difference between 95 Octane and 99 Octane is actually a noticeable 5.5%.

 

Sulphur content for EU/UK petrol is limited to 10ppm for all octanes but Australian fuels are allowed 150ppm for 91 Octane and 50ppm for 95/98 Octane fuels. It should be noted that local Australian refineries claim their fuels are 25 and 15ppm respectively but their fuels are mainly sold in the Eastern States whereas most other areas are supplied from Singapore with the higher sulphur fuels as Australia is no longer self sufficient.

 

High sulphur fuels when burnt produce more Nox and particles (and sulphur dioxide) plus they are damaging to many pollution reduction devices fitted on vehicles.

The sulphur content  is often cited as the reason that Australia does not receive the latest high performance engines, or as highly specified. for instance the Golf R is de-rated for Australia because of our hot climate but apparently that is not a problem for those sold in the middle east.

 

Another post asked a question about Aviation fuel, yes it does have a 100 Octane rating but I'd be surprised if that rating was still achieved by using Lead as the knock inhibiter.  The main thing that made Avgas so expensive was the formulation and storage to reduce the water content in the fuel to reduce the risks of engine manifold icing at higher ( colder) altitudes.

I remember when crop-sprayers got a dispensation to use normal high octane vehicle petrol it was on the basis of restricting their altitude during transit flights.

I'm not sure if modern aviation engines using direct injection are subjected to the same restrictions.

 

I have personally tested the 98 Octane fuel available here against 95 Octane and found no perceptible difference on my 1,4tsi to justify getting the higher octane.

My last tank of 95 Octane fuel I got a 5.4L/100 displayed return after 200km of urban driving and a 613km round trip with aircon in use the whole time (35 degrees). My actual fill returned 5.3L/100 (43litres for 813km) but I only went 2 litres past the first click because the forecast for the next day was 42 degrees and I was worried about expansion.

 

Sorry for rambling so much but it is quite a complex subject muddled by much mythology, marketing hype and some real science.

My opinion is largely based on scepticism and personal experience, but I'd recommend that you try different things for yourselves and go with what works for you

 

Edited 8 January, 2018 by Gerrycan

[Ootohere]

Lets correct that from me,

IMO & experience Warm / Hot Hatches with TSI engines love the ethanol taking UK 97 ron to 99 ron as sold at filling stations.

If you do not like it or want it then do not buy it.

Some 97 or 99 ron costs no more than some Stealer Branded Filling stations charge for 95 ron in the UK.

Edited 8 January, 2018 by AwaoffSki

[SWBoy]

6 minutes ago, AwaoffSki said:

Some 97 or 99 ron costs no more than some Stealer Branded Filling stations charge for 95 ron in the UK.

95 RON prices on motorways and major trunk roads are usually MUCH higher than 97/99 RON prices off the major routes, especially compared to out-of-town supermarkets such as Tesco.

 

I saw 95 RON for over 136p per litre on the M5 last week, but 99 RON locally is only 121p per litre.

[Ootohere]

I once went out of my way from Preston where i was staying the night to Blackpool to fill up at the Tesco with Momentum on my way to Santa Pod.

Next morning hitting it down the road luckily the traffic was stopped in Gridlock. 

& also luckily  i had plenty 102 ron in the boot and put some in as the car ran like crap on 95 ron and that must have been what was in the Tesco Blackpool Momentum Tanks.

Leaving the Toll booths on the M6 and the next stretch i was able to check the car was running OK.

Plenty there waiting to just show what they had under the bonnet, or what they thought they had.

 

Twice i have wrongly had 95 from pumps when i really needed Super Unleaded.

Once at Sainsbury Aberdeen and i knew by Stonehaven when the Engine management light came on and i went into limp mode, 

got home and put in 102 ron to see how it was.

I called Sainsbury at Bridge of Dee and Emailed the company and they said no Miss-Fueling of their tanks happened and no point me taking a sample from my tank, they were right, because it was now a mix of their petrol and 102 ron.

 

The reason i do not buy the Shell V-Power Nitro+ locally is when there was a fuel shortage and the 95 was running out there was only fuel for those on the Emergency Services & Civil list, but there was Super Unleaded and the price was bumped.

Greedy barsteward, so i went and filled up there with super and the fuel in there was in no way Super Unleaded, 

the price was plus the extra that the Millionaire owners had put it up.

(He can call me a liar and sue if he wants.  See you in court.)

Edited 8 January, 2018 by AwaoffSki

[SkodaAsh]

@Gerrycan you have presented a lot of fine information that ought to be acknowledged. Thank you. It puts the science and the marketing hype in perspective and it makes more sense knowing that “fuels ain’t fuels”. 

 

@AwaoffSki your experience with various fuel stations leaves us doubting the reputation and integrity of the business owners. Is there a way you can attest to the quality and reliability of the fuel you buy and is that what influences your source of petrol for your car?

[ahenners]

32 minutes ago, AwaoffSki said:

I once went out of my way from Preston where i was staying the night to Blackpool to fill up at the Tesco with Momentum on my way to Santa Pod.

Next morning hitting it down the road luckily the traffic was stopped in Gridlock. 

& also luckily  i had plenty 102 ron in the boot and put some in as the car ran like crap on 95 ron and that must have been what was in the Tesco Blackpool Momentum Tanks.

 

 

Are you saying you paid for 99 Momentum and got their 95? I fill up quite frequently at Tesco Blackpool and never had any issue - though my TSI runs on both 95 and 99 equally well with no discernible difference, and I don't have the ability to test the RON. 

[Ootohere]

What i am saying is i had done over 1,000 miles on a road trip ready to go to Santa Pod, Scottish Borders and Yorkshire dales in a car i had for 3 years before filling up in Blackpool, and then i had a very sick car 20 miles later.

It was a scorchio day, but that is not unusual, and it was not H2o in the fuel, the car was mapped for 99 ron and had no switchable map, 

so long story short, it was not 99 Momentum in the Filling station tanks that day.

2nd week May 2015, there was a Briskoda members Gathering Santa Pod that weekend.

 

 

Edited 8 January, 2018 by AwaoffSki

[KevC_Derby]

7 hours ago, mikey vrs said:

I used to run my previous octavia vrs on super unleaded all the time,i had a holiday in ireland & could only find normal unleaded & after a day or so i could feel the car wasnt as smooth or responsive as it used to feel,once back in the uk & a tank of super unleaded had been through the system the car felt more responsive,my current car a Golf R is always run on super unleaded & i think (would need to go look) but im sure it says super unleaded on inside of the fuel filler cap cover. 

 

Probably more to do with the poor fuel quality in Ireland, both Northern and Republic.

[Janno1]

Super unleaded at Costco was 116p last time I filled up with normal.

 

Shall be using that when the 245 finally arrives. 

[mikey vrs]

47 minutes ago, KevC_Derby said:

 

Probably more to do with the poor fuel quality in Ireland, both Northern and Republic.

Nah.....i tried a tank or two of normal unleaded in the uk & the result was the same,car ran better on super unleaded. 

[JohnnyType2]

sorry to burst your bubble lads but there is little or no noticeable difference between unleaded or super unleaded, just another advertising scam. The difference is noticeable between brands more so than RON. If you dont believe me then believe the experts instad of the advertisers.
 

 

[Sarge]

That's all very well re. power but what about long term engine wear or damage. Is higher Ron better? IIRC the likes of Esso reckon their super unleaded is better for your engine. Is this true? I may be being very naive but if, for example, VW states the minimum Ron for the golf R is 98, does using 95 cause a problem or is it just that 98 is what gives the max. performance and economy? 

Edited 8 January, 2018 by Sarge
Provide example

[Ootohere]

?

Where does VW state the Minimum ron for a Golf R is 98 ron?

That is not legal in the EU and VW can never of stated that, the cars would not have EU Type Approval and would not have been tested.

 

 

Well VW talk of less emissions which is from more efficient running.

Here about fuel consumption.

http://volkswagen.co.uk/need-help/owners/Fuel 

 

& Tesco test results that they publish again talk about emissions being lower & fuel consuption.

Maybe ESSO, BP should publish their tests with their Detergent Packages and additives.

388380a097b04fe693a8c27db8bb4974 (1).pdf

6ca06d648b9541e78fa838fece4a1a23 (1).pdf

Edited 8 January, 2018 by AwaoffSki

[Ootohere]

Fifth Gear did a report a few years before the 2012 one with VBH and both were before they were testing 99 ron.

Both before Euro 6 emission engines as well.

This before Euro 5 emissions.

 

Edited 8 January, 2018 by AwaoffSki

[Exeterj]

1 hour ago, AwaoffSki said:

?

Where does VW state the Minimum ron for a Golf R is 98 ron?

That is not legal in the EU and VW can never of stated that, the cars would not have EU Type Approval and would not have been tested.

 

 

 

Says minimum as 98 RON for the R on page 67 of the current (i think) sales brochure, the one thats downloadable here https://www.volkswagen.co.uk/new/golf-vii-pa/which-model/brochures. I asked our dealer about it today though and he said they run all theirs on 95. I know the sales brochures are often wrong/not caveated properly though.

 

Interesting the 230/245ps GTI are stated as 95 minimum.

 

 

[Ootohere]

Not seeing where it says that on page 67. 

 

They are all 95 ron minimum in the EU. 

& there are no filling stations selling lower than 95  octane in the EU are there?

Edited 9 January, 2018 by AwaoffSki

[Gerrycan]

11 hours ago, AwaoffSki said:

Lets correct that from me,

IMO & experience Warm / Hot Hatches with TSI engines love the ethanol taking UK 97 ron to 99 ron as sold at filling stations.

If you do not like it or want it then do not buy it.

Some 97 or 99 ron costs no more than some Stealer Branded Filling stations charge for 95 ron in the UK.

So are you saying that UK 99 octane fuels are just 97 Octane with about 10% added ethanol to achieve 99 ron rating? If that was the case I would not touch it with a barge pole.

Australian E10 is 10% Ethanol in our bog standard 91 Octane fuel to raise it to 93/94 Octane. It's 2 cents cheaper per litre than 91 Octane for noticeably poorer consumption.

[Sarge]

6 hours ago, Exeterj said:

Says minimum as 98 RON for the R on page 67 of the current (i think) sales brochure, the one thats downloadable here https://www.volkswagen.co.uk/new/golf-vii-pa/which-model/brochures. 

 

 

That's where I saw it too and it's still there. 

[mikey vrs]

10 hours ago, Sarge said:

That's all very well re. power but what about long term engine wear or damage. Is higher Ron better? IIRC the likes of Esso reckon their super unleaded is better for your engine. Is this true? I may be being very naive but if, for example, VW states the minimum Ron for the golf R is 98, does using 95 cause a problem or is it just that 98 is what gives the max. performance and economy? 

Ive just had a look on the sticker on the fuel filler flap on my Golf R & it has a large 98 with a smaller 95 next to it on the Ron info so as i previously mentioned vw suggest super unleaded over normal unleaded. If i was bothered about the extra cost for super unleaded then i would not have bought a 300bhp 4wd Golf R i would have bought a GTD..... i doubt any damage would be done using normal unleaded,next time im in ireland & have no choice but to use normal unleaded i will see how the car performs on it. 

[Ootohere]

Gerrycan, yes 99 octane has a octane booster more than 97 octane.

Obvious is it not, what the booster is is for anyone to check in the Fuel Specs and there are those to be found, 

ethanol, methanol, butanol, who gives a toss, it is just an engine and all you want is it to run well, 

and you buy thousands of litres of fuel in you own or drive a keeper.

one member in the trade posted the links in a thread in the General Maintenance section.

So just look at the Manufactures Fuel Spec, it tells you the 3 season Formulations for the UK and if ethanol is not a booster then what is it?

 

No idea why you think it is a no no.

Lovely stuff in the UK 99 ron minimum, and if you do not want to use it then there are plenty Retailers all selling their Formulations 

& Octanes.

As you know, fuels are Formulated differently in Australia & BP Fuels in Australia are not the same as the UK.

Fuel Formulations different in other World Regions as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating 

 

Maybe more with a TSI should think on what Oil they use and is Long Life oil good for long lived engines even 

if doing fixed servicing.

Then the Spark Plugs and their life expectancy, as VW Group Consumables as OEM are sometimes not the greatest.

 

Edited 9 January, 2018 by AwaoffSki