EV real world range and cost to charge

[wyx087]

55 minutes ago, PetrolDave said:

And that will also apply to most new EV buyers who expect to just "get in and drive', so the complaints over range not meeting expectations/quotes will continue and probably even get louder.

This needs educating. Such as:

 

 

Youtuber Bjorn also pointed out the article's opening and closing person's 350 miles range car only getting 150 miles range may be due to use of sentry mode and other consumables. The article goes into so little detail as to how the range was achieved it is as reliable as gospel.

[Ootohere]

Fly back into Oslo or any other airport and go collect your car from the long stay or short stay car park and there is no chance to pre condition your car.

That is what many offshore workers or just workers or people on holiday do so real world.

It is why many Oil workers are not driving EV,s in the UK but they might well be in Norway. 

 

As for going to Ski centres, winter sports, or anyplace really with car and people and you get there and there is no charging near and you park up and do your activity and at the end of the day you leave and head to where ever which might be no place near then charging can be a necessity.

That can be totally hopeless in Scotland as anyone that has done it will know because the infrastructure is not there for that.

Aviemore is about as good as it gets for chargers but even there it takes a lot of luck if you just want to get charged and on with your journey.

 

PS

Last week at Edinburgh Airport i was able to get charging at my 3rd attempt as the chargers were playing up.

I went to the loo and when i came back a gent with a Polestar was attempting to get 1 of the 6 chargers working, only 3 of them were.

He had a flight to catch and had to return the hire car with 75% charge.

I let him on the charger i was on as i had enough charge to get home and it is 55 pence a kWh.

 

I never asked him how much he would be surcharged if the car went back without 75 % charge.

Surely not the crazy sort of price you are charged per litre if you return an ICE without a full tank and they fill it up.

 

Edited 3 August, 2023 by toot

[Ootohere]

Not everyone has a Tesla and cold weather need not be extreme to have people needing to plan to get places and back and charging and not a load of time charging.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 4 August, 2023 by toot

[wyx087]

That MY LR only needing one 33min charging stop to go 478 miles is pretty epic. I guess diesel driver are going to say they can drive that distance non-stop because they have no bodily function requirements 🤪

 

Holidaying in Austria at the moment. Got a X1 diesel as rental car. It’s such a horrible driving experience. Forget much more expensive MY, I prefer my £5k (current worth) Nissan Leaf to this new-ish diesel: B mode regen braking, instant acceleration, no gear change delay, no engine noise and vibration, much smoother drive at lower speeds. 
 

At this Austria apartment we rented: 

 

Tesla provides those chargers for free. In return, there is Tesla-only charging (red) and a few public charging (white). At those locations, charging is completely free. 
 

https://www.tesla.com/en_gb/charging-partners

@toot, worth seeking out these chargers if you want much cheap-ness? 
https://www.tesla.com/en_gb/findus?v=2&bounds=58.79959858334538%2C-1.6884431664088972%2C55.03126146463905%2C-5.808316213283897&zoom=7&filters=destination charger

[Ootohere]

@wyx087I am driving my young lads BMW 520 estate just now and with about 100 mile range on it the other day i put in £89 of Gulf Super diesel. 

That had the range showing 635 miles.

I did 340 miles of a trip with just 2 stops, one at where i was delivering to and 1 for an ice cream and that had it showing 425 miles range left when i got home. 

 I have 340 miles to go again on Sunday but i will put some more go go juice before then and hand it back with fuel in.

 

The car is comfy but not as comfy as the Corsa is for me, but i needed to carry lots and to do 340 miles at the speeds i was at on the roads i was i need to use,

in the Corsa i would have needed 2 charges at least and in the north east of Scotland that in not a guarantee of getting on a rapid charger. 

About a 90 minute longer day as a minimum.  Crap charging possibilities after Aberdeen & up to he Moray Firth, along it to Nairn and back across country by Grantown on Spey, Tomintoul, Ballater, Edzell etc.

 

340 miles getting 3 miles per kWh and if paying 47 pence a kWh is £53. 

times 2 for 680 miles £106.

 

Over 50 pence a kWh public charging for those having to pay that and there are a lot of EV,s that are not making financial sense if just a private owner and not a business user.

Edited 4 August, 2023 by toot

[Luckypants]

49 minutes ago, toot said:

Over 50 pence a kWh public charging for those having to pay that and there are a lot of EV,s that are not making financial sense if just a private owner and not a business user.

Agree. For me I use previous car as a benchmark as similar in size to the ID.4. Current price of £1.48 ppl around here means my price per kWh before EV is more expensive is 59p/kWh. So basically any public rapid charger is more expensive than previous diesel car. Charging at home is the only way to be sure of cheaper running costs, otherwise you are into the realms of buying a subscription then searching for chargers which use that service and there is a discount.

I do think CPOs are taking the urine with their current prices, since the very high wholesale prices of the recent past have dropped a lot over the past few months to levels they were when prices were in the 40p range. I hope we start to see some price competition soon, perhaps with the likes of Sainsburys opening charger hubs it will happen.

Edited 4 August, 2023 by Luckypants

[Lady Elanore]

1 hour ago, toot said:

@wyx087I am driving my young lads BMW 520 estate just now and with about 100 mile range on it the other day i put in £89 of Gulf Super diesel. 

That had the range showing 635 miles.

I did 340 miles of a trip with just 2 stops, one at where i was delivering to and 1 for an ice cream and that had it showing 425 miles range left when i got home. 

 I have 340 miles to go again on Sunday but i will put some more go go juice before then and hand it back with fuel in.

 

The car is comfy but not as comfy as the Corsa is for me, but i needed to carry lots and to do 340 miles at the speeds i was at on the roads i was i need to use,

in the Corsa i would have needed 2 charges at least and in the north east of Scotland that in not a guarantee of getting on a rapid charger. 

About a 90 minute longer day as a minimum.  Crap charging possibilities after Aberdeen & up to he Moray Firth, along it to Nairn and back across country by Grantown on Spey, Tomintoul, Ballater, Edzell etc.

 

340 miles getting 3 miles per kWh and if paying 47 pence a kWh is £53. 

times 2 for 680 miles £106.

 

Over 50 pence a kWh public charging for those having to pay that and there are a lot of EV,s that are not making financial sense if just a private owner and not a business user.

 

 

Nobody can accuse you of not giving the EV thing a go. The cost of fast chargers is a pain and one that would impact me, as I regularly drive the sort of mileage you describe. I can live with the cost however, as it's for the good of the planet etc (still not totally sold on that one yet), but I am not time rich at work and the searching - and possible unreliability of service, could cost me my decent reputation. I work in an industry where turning up late is a dealbreaker. plus I don't want to be sitting around at 2 in the morning filling up the car in order to get home before sunrise. 

 

It seems that on talking to EV owners that have a similar lifestyle to my own, that the problems are not improving, at least not significantly. I wonder if it's because although chargers are increasing, so are EVs  on the road, so the ratio of convenient and working charge points, are running roughly hand in hand with the current stock of EVs doing the rounds. I can't use the new Tesla chargers at my local retail park as they don't have a type 2 charger and the same has happened at my local water park where I go for walks a couple of times a week. A type 2 low power charger would be perfect. I go for a 6-9 mile walk so it would easily give the charge I need to get home, but they have fitted chargers for people who want to drive large distances I assume, not us humble hybriddidy types 😞 At least I assume that's why, after all, if you are the water park for a few hours then your car is already partially charged, then you will easily charge to max capacity with these blitz charging thingummybobs and so will then be attracting a penalty payment for hogging the charger?

 

A colleague I work with extensively has just bought a Taycan (with the big battery) so it will be interesting to see how he copes, although he doesn't do quite the mileage I do, as he is trying to work less. In winter time, we do a job in London every year (I reckon it's a 220+ mile journey down for him), where there is a daily 20-mile round trip for the couple of weeks we are there, so that should be interesting (we are talking 14-hour work days too). I expect he will not be able to stay at the same digs as we normally do however, as they do not have any charge points 😞 

 

I know EVs are the future 😞 but I'm hoping I'm retired before I'm forced to run one. Range, charge points, dashing around the country etc will no longer be of concern really, so although it will be a sad day when I say goodbye to ICE cars, at least I'll still be mobile.

[Ootohere]

Just got a delivery of my KISS low tech device for making sure i do not overstay on chargers and i am ready every 15 minutes to restart charging  @ Tesco PodPoints where an hour on them can save my £3.

 

Pick up my new MINI on Thursday and off on an up to 10 charging session road trip on a route with 50 kW chargers that are free to use. 

I will use 11 kW AC chargers if needs must.

 

Edited 4 August, 2023 by toot

[Lady Elanore]

The new Fisker Ocean is getting good reviews. It has a humongous battery size for the money! 

[wyx087]

5 hours ago, toot said:

340 miles getting 3 miles per kWh and if paying 47 pence a kWh is £53. 

times 2 for 680 miles £106.

Still getting 3 mi/kWh? Weather these days should be perfect for EV’s. 
 

I’m regularly getting over 4 mi/kWh. In both my EV’s. 
 

5 hours ago, Luckypants said:

I do think CPOs are taking the urine with their current prices, since the very high wholesale prices of the recent past have dropped a lot over the past few months to levels they were when prices were in the 40p range. I hope we start to see some price competition soon

Totally agree. 
Perhaps time to seek out Tesla supercharger at around 40p 

[domhnall]

8 hours ago, wyx087 said:

That MY LR only needing one 33min charging stop to go 478 miles is pretty epic. I guess diesel driver are going to say they can drive that distance non-stop because they have no bodily function requirements 🤪

 

Holidaying in Austria at the moment. Got a X1 diesel as rental car. It’s such a horrible driving experience. Forget much more expensive MY, I prefer my £5k (current worth) Nissan Leaf to this new-ish diesel: B mode regen braking, instant acceleration, no gear change delay, no engine noise and vibration, much smoother drive at lower speeds. 
 

At this Austria apartment we rented: 

 

Tesla provides those chargers for free. In return, there is Tesla-only charging (red) and a few public charging (white). At those locations, charging is completely free. 
 

https://www.tesla.com/en_gb/charging-partners

@toot, worth seeking out these chargers if you want much cheap-ness? 
https://www.tesla.com/en_gb/findus?v=2&bounds=58.79959858334538%2C-1.6884431664088972%2C55.03126146463905%2C-5.808316213283897&zoom=7&filters=destination charger

 

I just drove my VW camper to France and back. Filled up as we left and then again at Winchester before we boarded the ferry. it whoed 559 miles of range (in the end it did 380 miles)

Had to stop at Penrith for a pee, then on the M6 for lunch, then for diesel at Winchester and then for dinner before we got to Portsmouth. 4 stops. Longest leg we did was 190 miles which took 3 hours 15 minutes. My conclusion was that I could have done all of this just as easily inmy 60 kWh Enyaq. took me 15 minutes to fill up at WInchester but then was at the restaurant for an hour for dinner - they had EV chargers too. Lunch was an hour and again there were chargers. 

On the return leg we queued 20 minutes for diesel in Birmingham.

I hated the drive of the diesel. Averaging 4.5 m/kWh in the Enyaq this week, 16 degrees today

Edited 4 August, 2023 by domhnall

[lol-lol]

57 minutes ago, domhnall said:

 

I just drove my VW camper to France and back. Filled up as we left and then again at Winchester before we boarded the ferry. it whoed 559 miles of range (in the end it did 380 miles)

Had to stop at Penrith for a pee, then on the M6 for lunch, then for diesel at Winchester and then for dinner before we got to Portsmouth. 4 stops. Longest leg we did was 190 miles which took 3 hours 15 minutes. My conclusion was that I could have done all of this just as easily inmy 60 kWh Enyaq. took me 15 minutes to fill up at WInchester but then was at the restaurant for an hour for dinner - they had EV chargers too. Lunch was an hour and again there were chargers. 

On the return leg we queued 20 minutes for diesel in Birmingham.

I hated the drive of the diesel. Averaging 4.5 m/kWh in the Enyaq this week, 16 degrees today

 

There is a new bunch of EV charges at Tothill on the A34 just south of Newbury.  Couple of weeks ago did Worcester to Southampton to pickup a LNG powered cruise ship, did that leg using less than half the battery. After cruise did a just over 10 minute DC charge at Tothill and got home with tens of miles still left. An absolute pleasure.

 

More EV charging points than petrol/diesel pumps now at Tothill Services.  

 

Octopus van there and I used my free £10 Octopus, well £8 of it, and then went on my way.  Better the Tescos vouchers for a few quid of fuel.

 

 

Edited 4 August, 2023 by lol-lol

[Ootohere]

@wyx087The weather oop north is not the same as London,s  & neither are the roads.

4 miles per kWh or a bit more might be around town efficiency and speeds below 50 mph but up hill and down dale and crossing the Cairngorms on old military roads or just up and down dual carriageways are a bit different.

[Paws4Thot]

1 hour ago, domhnall said:

My conclusion was that I could have done all of this just as easily inmy 60 kWh Enyaq.

Really? How many does the Qayne sleep? Can you cook a meal in one?

[wyx087]

7 hours ago, Paws4Thot said:

Really? How many does the Qayne sleep? Can you cook a meal in one?

With a cheaper MG4: sleeps 2 at a squeeze, cooks meal with V2L. 
 

8 hours ago, toot said:

@wyx087The weather oop north is not the same as London,s  & neither are the roads.

4 miles per kWh or a bit more might be around town efficiency and speeds below 50 mph but up hill and down dale and crossing the Cairngorms on old military roads or just up and down dual carriageways are a bit different.

Speed kills efficiency in EV’s. But I’m still averaging 274 wh/mi (3.65 mi/kWh) for my lifetime efficiency of MYLR since new, one summer month short of 1 year. Most of which are motorway miles because we drive Leaf locally. 

[Ootohere]

@wyx087I have just done 60,000 miles in the 3 years and that is with all season or winter tyres fitted and it is pretty much 3.1 miles per kWh that the car has done.

They are not EV only cars and i am not doing local miles much at 30 mph so it is at 60 or 70 mph speed limits and pretty much averaging 50-55 mph on journeys.

Real world in a different location and in different weathers / temperatures and still under £1,200 spent on public charging and £30 on a 3 pin charger.

Edited 5 August, 2023 by toot

[classic]

11 hours ago, domhnall said:

 

I just drove my VW camper to France and back. Filled up as we left and then again at Winchester before we boarded the ferry. it whoed 559 miles of range (in the end it did 380 miles)

Had to stop at Penrith for a pee, then on the M6 for lunch, then for diesel at Winchester and then for dinner before we got to Portsmouth. 4 stops. Longest leg we did was 190 miles which took 3 hours 15 minutes. My conclusion was that I could have done all of this just as easily inmy 60 kWh Enyaq. took me 15 minutes to fill up at WInchester but then was at the restaurant for an hour for dinner - they had EV chargers too. Lunch was an hour and again there were chargers. 

On the return leg we queued 20 minutes for diesel in Birmingham.

I hated the drive of the diesel. Averaging 4.5 m/kWh in the Enyaq this week, 16 degrees today

You could do it in your more or less empty Enyaq, if there were no major holdups or diversions and all possible chargers were actually available.

The reality can become a different story when loaded to any degree and when the random things that affect long journeys occur. 
I tried to make an Enyaq work for me for 25,000 miles and the infrastructure isn’t there, also 3.5 miles/kWh was a good average on a journey for me. I never got near 4.5, it would need to be a lot of downhill, summer and aircon off and max 65 mph to get that out of mine.

 

ps domhall, I love your videos on YouTube (particularly before I collected my Enyaq and whilst I had it), and you are doing a great job of promoting EVs and the Enyaq in particular.

I think regular out and back from a home charger or on preplanned journey it works, but go off the script anywhere and it can start to become difficult.

[wyx087]

Just need the public network to get better. 
 

[lol-lol]

4 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Just need the public network to get better. 
 

 

Can stop at Buckfastleigh now, if one use A38 rather than A30, lots of new and well priced charges so it is not just Exeter services now.

 

Well done Plymouth beating Huddersfield 3 to 1 in new division.

 

 

[Lady Elanore]

4 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Just need the public network to get better. 
 

 

 

I'm glad I got a Tesla too

 

[classic]

5 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Just need the public network to get better. 
 

Been there, done that….

[wyx087]

10 hours ago, classic said:

Been there, done that….

The queues? 
 

I’ve not experienced such long queues myself. At most only needed for current charging car to finish charging. But that was early days and most location only had 2 chargers. 

[classic]

Yes at Exeter Services as well. I went there 4 times in 2022, to be fair 3 times I got straight on a charger. Had to queue last May though not quite on the scale of the report you quoted, it is a horrible feeling when you pull in and see a queue. I thought then that if it was bad in May then the summer holiday months would be worse.  They have a double figure number of chargers as well. Unfortunately Cornwall is an ev charger desert so people will need to charge either entering or leaving and Exeter is an  ideal location.

Having a Tesla is obviously better with the supercharger network but it looks like  even that is getting close to maxed out at Exeter

Edited 6 August, 2023 by classic

[cheezemonkhai]

On 04/08/2023 at 14:28, toot said:

@wyx087I am driving my young lads BMW 520 estate just now and with about 100 mile range on it the other day i put in £89 of Gulf Super diesel. 

That had the range showing 635 miles.

I did 340 miles of a trip with just 2 stops, one at where i was delivering to and 1 for an ice cream and that had it showing 425 miles range left when i got home. 

 I have 340 miles to go again on Sunday but i will put some more go go juice before then and hand it back with fuel in.

 

The car is comfy but not as comfy as the Corsa is for me, but i needed to carry lots and to do 340 miles at the speeds i was at on the roads i was i need to use,

in the Corsa i would have needed 2 charges at least and in the north east of Scotland that in not a guarantee of getting on a rapid charger. 

About a 90 minute longer day as a minimum.  Crap charging possibilities after Aberdeen & up to he Moray Firth, along it to Nairn and back across country by Grantown on Spey, Tomintoul, Ballater, Edzell etc.

 

340 miles getting 3 miles per kWh and if paying 47 pence a kWh is £53. 

times 2 for 680 miles £106.

 

Over 50 pence a kWh public charging for those having to pay that and there are a lot of EV,s that are not making financial sense if just a private owner and not a business user.

Agree generally, but will add that 89 gained 535 miles.  106/680*535 = 83.50

 

Essentially not any cheaper on money, but more expensive on time.

 

If you take the fact the EV probably left home on 10p electric for 340 miles then it will have been a bit cheaper until the public charge but not much.

However say you did do the full range at todays prices

 

90kWh @ 10p = £9

90kWh @ 69p = £62

 

535 miles @3m/kWh = £71

 

Ouch… it is still close to the cost of a diesel but you added 30 minutes charging time. (assuming you have an 800v car and 350kW charger with a 90kWh+ usable battery )

 

Many people won’t pay an hour and a higher but price to get back £20

 

 

 

 

[lol-lol]

5 hours ago, classic said:

Yes at Exeter Services as well. I went there 4 times in 2022, to be fair 3 times I got straight on a charger. Had to queue last May though not quite on the scale of the report you quoted, it is a horrible feeling when you pull in and see a queue. I thought then that if it was bad in May then the summer holiday months would be worse.  They have a double figure number of chargers as well. Unfortunately Cornwall is an ev charger desert so people will need to charge either entering or leaving and Exeter is an  ideal location.

Having a Tesla is obviously better with the supercharger network but it looks like  even that is getting close to maxed out at Exeter

 

 

Plymouth, next to the Cornish border, has quite a lot of EV chargers and we are awaiting the full Gridserve 32 or so chargers dedicated facility which has planning permission at Home Park Plymouth but Gridserve, usually notable for their motorway charging points, and since Cornwall and Devon have only a little motorway ie M5 and the A30 and A38 are the main trunk roads but two weeks ago Gridserve "opened"their facility at end of Bodmin bypass ie the so called Cornwall Services.  Teething issues reported but once sorted should be the "go to"  place with its 1 MWh on site mega-battery to help keep power outputs  

 

It is on the A30, which most use for Cornwall rather than the A38 which I tend to use as a Janner ie Plymouth/Devon person but a very welcome facility especially to us Zoe owners who can use either CCS DC or the AC outlets which their are half a dozen of either plus 3 LEAF connectors, when they are all sorted out after these teething problems. 

Good nosh stop there too.  Not an issue for me as going from Plymouth to Lands End and back is do-able in the Zoe.ZE50.   

 

https://www.cornwall-services.com/gridserve/ 

 

Edited 6 August, 2023 by lol-lol