26 minutes ago, roottoot said:

^^^ If the Price Cap rises above £3,000 as i heard it. 

So that is when people would be paying more than £8.21 a day for their home electric and gas..

 

**People can gather their family or friends or just anyone that needs heat into their EV over peak times or where there is free charging and help keep them warm.**

 

Obviously since this in May 2022 things have got worse.  

 

Yes well over £3k for the cap is looking likely now we have more months to base the rise on ie £3.2k but taking VAT would bring it down close to £3k.

 

Still £250 a month when many have been use to £100 to £150 pm.

 

Presumably it will be one of the first things Liz/Rishi will do in September but energy companies cannot assume it is going to happen and will have to wait until it does when setting Direct Debits for the anticipated annualised cost of energy for the house hold.  So may average annual bills of £250 pm rather than £263.

 

Still massive and if one is unlucky enough to renewing a two year fixed interest mortgage that extra £100 a month energy bill could be accompanied with an extra hundred or two mortgage costs and in addition to an extra hundred or two on ones monthly shopping bill so some will be looking at another £500 a month in out going on these 3 elements and new PM is only really helping with one of these and only with half the anticipated rise ie £400 bung place £160 on no VAT change.

 

 

Those with minimum incomes are in big trouble and those comfortably off will just have to suffer a bit and cut back on stuff if needs must.

 

No point crying over spilt milk or not affording milk if still able to save and invest for your older age.

 

Some that saved for their old age might just have to dip into that money and not expect to pass it on to their family 

Interested to see how he gets on when the next vid comes out.   

 

 

Watched this yesterday and now on tenterhooks for part 2. 🙂

 

 

I’ve seen £4000/year mentioned for the cap from January.

That JoG to LE run was fantastic. Just 1:23 of charging for 840 miles. Really shows how capable EV's are these days. First comment my wife made, with our EV long distance experience wasn't on range, "he must have been really lucky with chargers". Of course my reply was that he had full access to Tesla superchargers. 

Good info.  IMO.

Scottish summer warm not rainy / windy. 

Full car so real world.     Stirling Castle View Park & ride is still a Free to use charging hub.  Only 4 50kW chargers though.  Plenty 7 & 22 chargers though.

 

 

 

Petrol is now £1.70/l here or about 17p per mile at 45mpg.

 

Electric at 60p per kWh from a public charger means 3.5 m/kWh works out at just over 17.1p

 

Home rates are high too, although cheaper and the cost of buying an EV is much higher. Have high electric and falling fuel prices created a perfect storm for EV?

 

 

^^^

Private drivers using their own money to buy or lease cars and buy the electricity at home or at public chargers.

 

Business / commercial EV drivers who have a vehicle as a work requirement are making saving with tax and are getting VAT back on public charging. 

As high users they might well have subscriptions for charger networks and are paying lower prices.

Businesses and individuals are getting Grants & Loans to buy EV's for their business's or work. 

 

http://parkers.co.uk/vans-pickups/advice/electric-van-grant

http://gov.uk/plug-in-vehicle-grants

 

Scotland.

http://insider.co.uk/news/scottish-government-pledges-30-million-27168802

Used EV's.

http://energysavingtrust.org.uk/grants-and-loans/used-electric-vehicle-loan

 

 

Edited 3 August, 20223 yr by roottoot

http://autoexpress.co.uk/tip-advice/352867/how-much-does-it-cost-charge-electric-car

 

9 hours ago, cheezemonkhai said:

Home rates are high too, although cheaper and the cost of buying an EV is much higher. Have high electric and falling fuel prices created a perfect storm for EV?

Home charging is still at 7.5p/kWh for cheapest EV focused tariff. This still gives ~3p per mile cost. 

Diesel at £1.80 per liter still translate to ~15p per mile for me based on my previous lifetime average of £1.23 per liter and getting 10p per mile. 

As long as you can charge at home, it's still much cheaper driving EV's. Remembering there's also less service cost and tax-free emission zone benefits. 

 

But for purchase price, it's not looking good. I think the chip shortage have worsened the price differences. The demand for EV's doesn't seem to be disappearing, it seems to be ever increasing, which is not good for prices or even just incentive to design smaller cheaper EV's. 

1 hour ago, wyx087 said:

Home charging is still at 7.5p/kWh for cheapest EV focused tariff. This still gives ~3p per mile cost. 

This is true BUT the day rate or peak rate paid is very high as are the standing charges. You need to be able to move almost all your use to the low cost period for it to make sense to use one of these tariffs now. Just saying you can charge your car for 7.5p / kWh ignores the bigger picture of overall electricity cost for the household. I work from home, so use quite a lot in the day and for me the SVP would be best if I didn't have a fixed rate at the moment. I get what you say about home charging being cheaper than diesel and for me most definitely is at approx 5ppm versus 18ppm if I still had a diesel. I pasted the rates in my area below and you can see the day rate on Go is double my current (V. Good) rate. Everyone's circumstances are different.
 

My rate

YOUR TARIFF

Octopus 24M Fixed

Octopus 24M Fixed September 2021 v3

Fixed term ends 13/09/2023

21.99p/kWh

23.50p/day

 

Octopus Go rates for my area:-
 

Unit rate (04:30 - 00:30):

42.29p/ kWh

Unit rate (00:30 - 04:30):

7.50p/ kWh

Standing Charge:

47.31p/ day

Prices include VAT.

Octopus Go is an electricity only smart tariff. For gas, simply choose any Octopus gas tariff.

^^^ Damn expensive.

I grudge charging at the Council Chargers nearby at 23 pence a kWh but i would use them before paying more than that on my home tariff.

Now to get free local charging at the supermarket i have to be there early or late or often just not get it as cars are now left on the charger for many hours.

 

Come February i will be going homeless most likely and taking to the road from free charger to charger. 

 

 

Edited 3 August, 20223 yr by roottoot

 

Source:  https://www.edfenergy.com/electric-cars/costs

 

 

In order to assist people who may wish to do their own maths, and input current prices, here is how you calculate.

Take your price per kWh from your tariff and divide it by 3.5 (average kW needed to drive 1 mile down the road)

 

Example: 17.2p kWh / 3.5 = 4.91p per mile (change 17.2p to your tariff)

 

 

Fuel cost per mile is calculated from price of fuel in pence, divided by the average of 49mpg (UK gallon) then multiply by 4.54 as there's 4.54lrs per UK gallon.

 

Example: 134p per litre / 49 mpg average, then multiply the answer by 4.54ltr = 12.42p per mile (change price per litre to reflect current values, and adjust mpg for your car average)

 

 

p.s. I would love to see some overall cost of running one car vs. the other, meaning what say 12,000 miles a year over 3x years, add in lease costs to get real comparison for my own curiosity.  Then compare cost of the EV vs ICE for 3x years.

So now Petrol / Diesel is still between 170-210 pence around the UK and 135 pence a litre is a wish and a dream.

 

There are calculators to give the comparison of an ICE vs EV and maybe someone can link one.

 

Business / Commercial users / drivers and EV / ICE comparisons will be a totally different kettle of fish. 

 

PS

That average new Petrol car 49.2 mpg in 2019 looks like rubbish to me. 

Edited 3 August, 20223 yr by roottoot

6 minutes ago, roottoot said:

So now Petrol / Diesel is still between 170-210 pence around the UK and 135 pence a litre is a wish and a dream.

 

There are calculators to give the comparison of an ICE vs EV and maybe someone can link one.

 

Business / Commercial users / drivers and EV / ICE comparisons will be a totally different kettle of fish. 

 

PS

That average new Petrol car 49.2 mpg in 2019 looks like rubbish to me. 

Yeah those figures were from 2019 (page linked) so 100% different now.

 

I used the image and then used those values so people could test their calculator skills, people then need to input their own figures for local fuel / electric tariff's and of course own mpg figures.

 

 

Agreed 100% not sure where the hell they got an average 49mpg, seems like pie in the sky figures!

 

 

Would love to see if someone has a good site for EV/ICE running cost comparisons, I recon EV wins by a long mile, but that's only my own guess.

On 03/08/2022 at 12:25, varooom said:

p.s. I would love to see some overall cost of running one car vs. the other, meaning what say 12,000 miles a year over 3x years, add in lease costs to get real comparison for my own curiosity.  Then compare cost of the EV vs ICE for 3x years.

I have often cited my own example as I do monitor the cost of my cars. My previous diesel Karoq averaged 45.4 mpg over 36K miles. (https://www.fuelly.com/car/skoda/karoq/2018/luckypants/793739) - a good comparison to my ID.4 I have now. It was serviced once in that time for £256, insurance was £320 pa and VED was included in the lease - which was £480. Before covid we were doing about 15K a year. At current fuel prices here (£1.85 p/litre) the fuel cost is 18.5p/mile.

The ID.4 is on PCP and costs £580 pcm. Insurance is £300 pa and VED is £0. No servicing yet, but I expect to be in the region of £150. Over 17K miles my average charge cost per mile 5.48p/mile (sorry in a spreadsheet so cannot share). This includes free charges at Tesco etc but I get nothing not available to any EV driver and I don't take the **** (e.g could have granny charged at the cottage when on holiday but chose to pay at the rapid 2 miles away).

 

The £100 difference in monthly cost is more or less offset by the cheaper cost per mile, making the cars broadly similar in cost to run / own. If we take an average 1000 mile month, I save £120 but spend £100 more on monthly (This is how I justified the high purchase price of an EV to myself, cos £580 a month is crazy!) These figures meant I was able to get an EV for all the reasons of low emissions without really paying through the nose. I'd like to replace the Citigo with electric, but the figures no where near stack up for a low use vehicle.

Edited 4 August, 20223 yr by Luckypants

3 hours ago, wyx087 said:

Home charging is still at 7.5p/kWh for cheapest EV focused tariff. This still gives ~3p per mile cost. 

Diesel at £1.80 per liter still translate to ~15p per mile for me based on my previous lifetime average of £1.23 per liter and getting 10p per mile. 

As long as you can charge at home, it's still much cheaper driving EV's. Remembering there's also less service cost and tax-free emission zone benefits. 

 

But for purchase price, it's not looking good. I think the chip shortage have worsened the price differences. The demand for EV's doesn't seem to be disappearing, it seems to be ever increasing, which is not good for prices or even just incentive to design smaller cheaper EV's. 

 

That assumes you're on the cheapest tarrif, it covers your miles and that you can get access to a cheap tarrif.

7.5p/kW pushes other costs up, such as the daily charge, so I'd probably be better off on the fixed.

 

If you can afford to get a good sized solar array and charge the car primarily from solar that would have been exported, you are onto a winner though.

 

I see BMW are spending quite a bit of effort looking into hydrogen, which would fit in well with batteries for short-medium range and fuel cell for longer range.

Same base car, same base electronics, but one has a say 50kWh HV battery, the other has a 10kWh battery, a hydrogen tank and a fuel cell.

 

 

I'm on Octopus Go with 35.11p per kWh daytime, signed up just over a month ago. It's not much increase from current unit cap. Because it's fixed for 12 months, I've even considered getting my parents to use this despite not having EV. Unfortunately the price have risen recently to 40+p, making it pointless for non-EV users.

 

 

I too work from home a lot of days (eg. now), pretty much all of WFH computer stuff are powered from my 7 years old roof-top solar PV. Unfortunately it is too small and cannot satisfy Zappi EV charger's 1.6 kW minimum rate to charge the car solely from solar.

 

 

18 minutes ago, cheezemonkhai said:

 

That assumes you're on the cheapest tarrif, it covers your miles and that you can get access to a cheap tarrif.

7.5p/kW pushes other costs up, such as the daily charge, so I'd probably be better off on the fixed.

 

If you can afford to get a good sized solar array and charge the car primarily from solar that would have been exported, you are onto a winner though.

 

I see BMW are spending quite a bit of effort looking into hydrogen, which would fit in well with batteries for short-medium range and fuel cell for longer range.

Same base car, same base electronics, but one has a say 50kWh HV battery, the other has a 10kWh battery, a hydrogen tank and a fuel cell.

 

 

 

This time of the year even my heavy footed offspring gets 4 miles per kWh and I tend to get closer to 5 miles per kWh.

Just signed up for Octopus Go renewal so 7.5p per kWh will be my new price in mid September but hoping the VAT is removed by then so it will be about 7p per kWh so still less than 2p per mile for us in the Zoe.   

Octopus giving £10 in free Octopus Juice credit so it looks like I might finally try the CCS port to get that free power.

 

2 hours ago, varooom said:

p.s. I would love to see some overall cost of running one car vs. the other, meaning what say 12,000 miles a year over 3x years, add in lease costs to get real comparison for my own curiosity.  Then compare cost of the EV vs ICE for 3x years.

This is my costs, compared 2 second hand car of similar value purchased in 2017: Skoda Octavia mk3 2013 and Nissan Leaf 24kWh 2014.

 

It gets updated everytime I refuel the diesel or every few month for the EV.

 

Total average fuel cost over my dataset is £1.20 per liter. EV used a constant cost of 12p/kWh, very pessimistic considering I was paying 8p initially, then 10p and 12p on Economy 7 as price rises. But soon after hitting 12p, I've switched to EV tariff charging 8p (Bulb) and now 7.5p (Octopus).

 

I have full breakdown of servicing costs. Both had new tyres and new front brake disk/pad. Skoda had dealer timing belt and DSG oil, otherwise indie servicing done on schedule. Whereas Leaf didn't get any servicing beyond me checking battery with Leafspy and DIY the cabin filter.

 

 

The depreciation cost will be off the charts when I replace the diesel Skoda with Tesla Model Y...... luckily it's paid in cash. Same as all my previous cars, I always pay cash or pay off PCP ASAP, if the PCP deal have other benefits. Thus the above depreciation cost are purely speculative estimates based on car value probably drop 40% every 3 years.

 

If you can charge at home, I think EV ownership just need to get used to much lower fuel cost but higher depreciation cost. This calculation made sense in 2017 when I bought my EV. It will continue to make sense for as long as EV tariff are available.

Edited 3 August, 20223 yr by wyx087

3 hours ago, varooom said:

 

 

Source:  https://www.edfenergy.com/electric-cars/costs

 

 

In order to assist people who may wish to do their own maths, and input current prices, here is how you calculate.

Take your price per kWh from your tariff and divide it by 3.5 (average kW needed to drive 1 mile down the road)

 

Example: 17.2p kWh / 3.5 = 4.91p per mile (change 17.2p to your tariff)

 

 

Fuel cost per mile is calculated from price of fuel in pence, divided by the average of 49mpg (UK gallon) then multiply by 4.54 as there's 4.54lrs per UK gallon.

 

Example: 134p per litre / 49 mpg average, then multiply the answer by 4.54ltr = 12.42p per mile (change price per litre to reflect current values, and adjust mpg for your car average)

 

 

p.s. I would love to see some overall cost of running one car vs. the other, meaning what say 12,000 miles a year over 3x years, add in lease costs to get real comparison for my own curiosity.  Then compare cost of the EV vs ICE for 3x years.

 

I worked out the following on a thread somewhere:

 

Lease: Petrol vs EV = £200-300 more per month on EV (Let's take £200)

Fuel: Petrol £1.80 and Electric at £0.20p (A mix of 1/3rd Rapid and mostly very cheap home charging)

MPG: Petrol = 45MPG = 10MPL and Electric = 3.5M/kWh.

 

So 12000miles a year:

 

Petrol = £2160 in fuel per year.

EV = £685 in electric per year.

 

So 3 years fuel = £6480 and Electric = £2057.

 

If you can charge at home and bring your average electric cost down to 20p or less per kWh, you're onto a big win on fuel alone.

Tax = £165 and £0

 

So £6480+(£165*3) = £6975 - £2057 = £4918 difference over 3 years of fuel/tax.

Now add in the assumed £200 per month for 36 months and you have a cost of (36*200) £7200 extra for the EV lease.

 

You save £4918 on fuel, but lose £7200 on lease costs. 

Net benefit on an EV = - £2282 over 3 year, 12k mile lease.

 

If you don't already have an EV, then you need to buy a charger etc, so it's a higher investment.

 

Essentially, unless you get your EV fuel cost down to almost zero, then a petrol car on a lease is cheaper at £1.80/L and 45MPG.

 

However it's not that simple as you have:

 

• Fuel pricing changes (both fuels)
• Fuel availability issues
• Time saved/lost
• Saving the planet (or not)
• Miles around town vs motorway, as these change the equations.
• How much time you spend on public chargers
• If you have solar, that is essentially providing free electric
• If servicing is really cheaper on an EV (Doesn't look it currently)
• Do you already own a petrol car outright
• Do you already own an EV outright
• Availability of cars
• Are you going into cities where ICE cars are charged an entry fee or even banned?

 

I think right now if you're a two car house, your best bet is one of each (ICE and EV), as you cover fluctuations and avilability.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 3 August, 20223 yr by cheezemonkhai

I appreciate all the replies, this was merely a curiosity of mine, so I have to ask the question or it bugs me!

Has value for the future when one day I will probably end up with an EV at some point, and benefits all others that stumble onto this thread.

 

Many thanks to all that have posted in response, your time and answers have been appreciated.

It's probably worth noting that as Euro 7 requirements come in, they will increase the cost of ICE cars.

As shortages reduce the cost of EV will come down a bit (But not much due to metal demands).

Hopefully EV depreciation will show as lower and the cars will be cheaper per month than current estimates.

 

Hydrogen EV will hopefully reduce the need for mega sized batteries for long range cars, increasing the efficiency of EV by reducing the weight.

Cars like the ioniq 6 are improving range by being more aero, which again improved efficiency.

 

I don't think it's too far from a point where the lease differences between EV and ICE cars will probably come down to under £100 a month and at that point the £3600 cost is swallowed by fuel savings.

 

Plus that's comparing a like for like in car, if you want like to like in performance, then the EV is probably cheaper to lease and the fuel costs for the performance ICE will be much higher when you use the performance.