How To: Change those pesky front indicator bulbs

[hhcd80]

Anyone got any suggestions for a cutting tool that will fit in the space to cut out the hole to access the indicator bulbs? I have tried looking for the scalpel handle in the original guide but can't find anything suitable. 

[jaygemson]

This looks like the same one I used…

 

Blue Spot Soft Grip Precision Knife Set https://amzn.eu/d/8k7owoo

 

The colour is different but it’s the same item I ordered from Amazon in 2018 so I reckon it’ll do the job.

[hhcd80]

7 hours ago, jaygemson said:

This looks like the same one I used…

 

Blue Spot Soft Grip Precision Knife Set https://amzn.eu/d/8k7owoo

 

The colour is different but it’s the same item I ordered from Amazon in 2018 so I reckon it’ll do the job.

Thank you for that. How hard is it to cut through the plastic? Does it easily give way or am I going to need a fair amount of force? 

[jaygemson]

@hhcd80 from memory it wasn't too bad.  The cutting zone is relatively thin plastic.

[hhcd80]

Another thing. Is the bulb part code "PWY24W" or "PYW24Y" as I've seen it mentioned both ways in the workshop manual?

[varooom]

8 hours ago, hhcd80 said:

Another thing. Is the bulb part code "PWY24W" or "PYW24Y" as I've seen it mentioned both ways in the workshop manual?

I am 99% sure it will be PWY24W, the other can be one of those little brain flips where a letter gets swapped (then it takes a few copy/paste errors to spread)

[wagonist]

I had to finish off a hole that someone else had started (was wondering why my light was fogging up...) and just used an old steak knife. A small file could be used to clean up the rough edges later, but the grommet fully hides the hole anyway.

The hardest part would to start the hole.

I did buy the pair of Grommets from Skoda so at some point, maybe I'll do the other side.

[hhcd80]

This is probably going further from the topic of the thread, but with regards to replacement of the indicator bulbs, I know that LED replacements aren't road legal, but a lot of people still use them as replacements anyway. If I wanted something that is 100% road legal and guaranteed to pass the MOT, would it be better to just stick to some long life filament bulbs? 

[cheezemonkhai]

Pinned this as a useful thread.

 

If starting is hard, would heating the tip of the scalpel help to push through?

If the light is out it’s probably east with d sad one cutting wire.

[jaygemson]

On 30/04/2023 at 10:02, cheezemonkhai said:

Pinned this as a useful thread.

 

If starting is hard, would heating the tip of the scalpel help to push through?

 

Thanks for the pin!

 

Yes, heating the blade would probably help, not a bad idea.

 

 

On 30/04/2023 at 10:02, cheezemonkhai said:

If the light is out it’s probably east with d sad one cutting wire.

 

Not sure I follow this, sorry!  Can you explain?

[Spyne]

No reply to my question regarding the process for facelift models?

Indicator bulb is in a different position compared to the mk3, and I can't see any obvious way to get at it.

[VWD]

On 29/03/2023 at 20:54, hhcd80 said:

This is probably going further from the topic of the thread, but with regards to replacement of the indicator bulbs, I know that LED replacements aren't road legal, but a lot of people still use them as replacements anyway. If I wanted something that is 100% road legal and guaranteed to pass the MOT, would it be better to just stick to some long life filament bulbs? 

I've had LED lamps in my front indicators and sidelights for years. Mr MOT man tells me that only place they are not permitted is dip/main beam. And I've found out that the CPU does not like LED lamps fitted in the brake position. It throws up a fault as if brake switch was faulty.

[hhcd80]

3 hours ago, VWD said:

I've had LED lamps in my front indicators and sidelights for years. Mr MOT man tells me that only place they are not permitted is dip/main beam. And I've found out that the CPU does not like LED lamps fitted in the brake position. It throws up a fault as if brake switch was faulty.

Thanks for that. Can you remind me if any special adaptions are needed for the LED indicator bulbs? 

[langers2k]

3 hours ago, VWD said:

I've had LED lamps in my front indicators and sidelights for years. Mr MOT man tells me that only place they are not permitted is dip/main beam. And I've found out that the CPU does not like LED lamps fitted in the brake position. It throws up a fault as if brake switch was faulty.

 

Just for clarity and to prevent misinformation.

 

A MOT pass does not mean a car is road-legal or even road-worthy, only that it's passed the basic checks included during the MOT at the time of testing.

 

The last set of UK regs predate LEDs, during our time in the EU the ECE regs were approved and it's these which mean LED lights can be used on UK road. However, a drop-in conversion will not meet the ECE regs so it's technically not road-legal despite the MOT pass.

[hhcd80]

Well, on that note I think I'll just stick to some form of long life filament bulb up until such a change in the law which does allow drop in LED conversions, if such a thing happens.

[VWD]

2 hours ago, langers2k said:

 

Just for clarity and to prevent misinformation.

 

A MOT pass does not mean a car is road-legal or even road-worthy, only that it's passed the basic checks included during the MOT at the time of testing.

 

The last set of UK regs predate LEDs, during our time in the EU the ECE regs were approved and it's these which mean LED lights can be used on UK road. However, a drop-in conversion will not meet the ECE regs so it's technically not road-legal despite the MOT pass.

Sorry, my MOT bloke is very pedantic on lights. He's shown me the regs, perhaps you Might like to read them

[langers2k]

9 hours ago, VWD said:

Sorry, my MOT bloke is very pedantic on lights. He's shown me the regs, perhaps you Might like to read them

 

I think you've misunderstood my post.

 

A MOT only checks a small subset of what's required to make a car road-legal. To check everything would take considerable time and would cost significantly more. At no point did I say a LED swap would fail a MOT and I completely agree with your MOT bloke that 4.1.4 (c) Light source and lamp not compatible only applies to headlights, therefore any other lamp should not fail a MOT solely on a halogen to LED swap.

 

Despite current MOT guidelines, a LED drop-in conversion does not meet the requirements for either the very outdated "Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989" or current ECE regulations which means it's not road-legal. It's really that simple. This article from an LED seller makes the same point despite it's focus on headlights : https://www.autobulbsdirect.co.uk/blog/are-led-headlights-legal-in-the-uk/ 

 

Progress is being made where Philips (and other manufactures?) are pushing for changes with progress in Korea, Germany and Austria. Meaning there are now some approved LED conversions but you need specific luminaire plus LED combinations based on what Philips tested and certified. In time, I expect the same will be legal in the UK...

 

It's your car so fit whatever you want, I've used LED conversions previously. Anyone wanting to fit LED drop-in kits should still be aware they are not road-legal even if an MOT allows for them

[VWD]

Again, we are at cross purposes, or mixing LED with Halogen.

My sides/indicators and brake lights ( aka lamps, sometimes miscalled Bulbs) are olde worlde filament types, which do not provide a fixed and regulated beam of light and can be replaced by LED TYPES. The only problem you will find is that the ECU checking circuit for the (rear) brake lights even on the very low spec models requires to see a certain level of current passing or the ECU determines that there is a fault. No special checks ( other than a go/no go  test) on these lamps is performed. No special instruments, which is where some UNSCRUPULOUS MOT places can gain a retest by insisting that rear indicator lamps are "wrong " colour of orange.

I replace any non focused lamp with a LED. Not for cost, But for reliability and safety.

Edited 2 August, 2023 by VWD

[langers2k]

1 hour ago, VWD said:

Again, we are at cross purposes,

 

I don't think we are.

 

You're saying they pass a MOT, I'm agreeing but warning you that doesn't make them road legal. You then say your MOT bloke says they are fine, I reiterate the same information and you tell me for a third time it's fine for a MOT 

 

In terms of an MOT, we both agree that swapping the side lights, indicators and brake lamps from halogen/filament to LED will NOT cause a MOT failure.

 

However, having a MOT does not mean your vehicle is road legal or meets all required legislation.

 

You mention "sides/indicators and brake lights" "which do not provide a fixed and regulated beam of light" which is simply not true! ECE 148 has diagrams showing exactly how the light should be distributed for all of these functions, not just headlights, for ALL lamps. Just because it's not checked during an MOT, doesn't mean it doesn't matter.

 

Just for example, a indicator would need to achieve the following light pattern:

 

 

By changing the light source, you're invalidating the testing of that luminaire which means it's no longer compliant with the regulations and the type approval is voided, therefore it's not road legal. If you were to have an accident and someone claimed not to see you indicate or brake, using none approved light sources could add support to their claim even if it's not true.

 

In short, drop-in LED conversions are technically not road legal, regardless of light function or MOT checks, folk should be aware of that when making these changes

[J.R.]

Very well put and thanks for the example chart.

 

Are they still stuck with the centuries old text of light sources being of a certain wattage or have they finally changed to luminous intensity?

 

The words "minimum intensity" would indicate they have, as someone frequently being dazzled by modern LED headlight equipped vehicles I hope their is a maximum specified.

Edited 3 August, 2023 by J.R.

[VWD]

I'd forget all the charts etc. One thing missed from our mumbo jumbo is life of lamps. I've fitted LED in most places to MINIMISE lamp ( it's not a bulb. That grows in ground) FAILURE, THE CAUSE of a lot of accidents. My indicator lamps are LED, as are my sides and number plate ones. 25 YEARS ago, BR( PRELUDE TO nETWORK RAIL) SWAPPED signal lamps, filament type for LED. Most of these in signal heads/ road crossing warnings are still working.

Perhaps its time for the dinosaurs in the DVLA testing department to wake up and consider whether a light with life s better than one to spec or one not working.

But then, I just change mine when needed. Its easy on an older car.

Edited 5 August, 2023 by VWD

[hhcd80]

Just for reference and the avoidance of doubt, which bolts/screws do you unfasten to be able to move the headlights forward for a bit more space to work on the indicators? I can only see one big torx bolt looking at the headlights and I am not sure what size it is or if there are any other fasteners.

[jaygemson]

On 18/09/2023 at 14:19, hhcd80 said:

Just for reference and the avoidance of doubt, which bolts/screws do you unfasten to be able to move the headlights forward for a bit more space to work on the indicators? I can only see one big torx bolt looking at the headlights and I am not sure what size it is or if there are any other fasteners.

 

I tried to highlight the bolt in step 2 of my original post, but to avoid any doubt it's the torx screws shown here that allow you to move the headlamp:

[hhcd80]

6 hours ago, jaygemson said:

 

I tried to highlight the bolt in step 2 of my original post, but to avoid any doubt it's the torx screws shown here that allow you to move the headlamp:

Thanks. I am assuming it is a case of undo the bolts and push the headlights forward. What size of torx driver do you need? Want to make sure I have all the possibly required tools before I even attempt this. 

[jaygemson]

It'll either be T25 or T30, like most other bolts on the car