Anyone done a 360 in terms of cars (Nissan Leaf to VRS 220)

[ChoonDoode]

1 hour ago, Gizmo said:

I think you are getting your wires crossed a bit, most home charging is done by fast charging and is what is recommended (a dedicated EV wall charger)

rather than the 3 pin ‘granny charger’ (trickle charging)

 

Rapid (or Supercharging in the case of Tesla) charging is the MSA type of charging which could effect the battery health if used all the time.

 

Either way most of the manufacturers offer a very long warranty on their batteries (8 years / 100k miles for Nissan)

 

Right ho. That's where I've got confused.

[Adrian55555]

Our leaf only ever gets charged at home. Coming upto 6 yrs old and the last service done a few months ago, we get a printout showing the battery health and status.  Ours still shows 100% battery health and we have the full 12 bars

[maffyou]

14 minutes ago, Adrian55555 said:

Our leaf only ever gets charged at home. Coming upto 6 yrs old and the last service done a few months ago, we get a printout showing the battery health and status.  Ours still shows 100% battery health and we have the full 12 bars

I feel more than a little skeptical that a 6 year old battery of any variety could possibly still maintain 100% of its original capacity. In fact, I’m pretty certain it’s impossible. I’m not doubting what you’re saying, I’m doubting what Nissan are telling you. 

 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/electrek.co/2018/04/14/tesla-battery-degradation-data/amp/

[Adrian55555]

The car is very low mileage.  I worked at a nissan dealer for 2 yrs and we did see them with around 70% mark but they were higher mileage and used rapid charges often. 

 

The print out is what the diagnostic machine reads from the control units. It know how many rapid charges etc it has had and that is what kills the battery. 

 

Our 6yr old leaf only has around 23k miles on it and is charged once a week

[wyx087]

Age also degrades the battery, this is more important factor than mileage. Higher mileage means more charge cycles, which will speed up degradation. Even if you drive zero miles and keep all cells at 3.8v (Li-on's ideal storage voltage) you'll still get degradation.

 

The Leaf has 12 bars for battery health, but the first bar doesn't disappear until battery health is down to 85%. Similarly, my car's dealership report sheet also says 100%, but Leafspy readout of BMS estimate of SoH is at 88%. I'm expecting first bar to disappear at 5-6 year old (2020, car has 30k miles on the clock now)  

 

12 hours ago, tunedude said:

Apologies if this sounds like I'm, again, putting the boot into electric cars.....but.....on a lot of sites discussing the batteries and their performance, the fast charging gets mentioned quite a bit. It's the same with mobiles. Fast charging causes more heat which impacts the longevity of the battery. Trickle charging is advised by a lot of manufacturers as well. 

 

I know you'd have it on on trickle at home, but again, it just shows up the flaws of battery powered cars at the moment. 

Rapid charging will degrade the battery due to heat, but at the same time, occasional rapid charging is also shown to be good for the BMS to learn of cell characteristics so it can better estimate state of health. Also, there are talks of regular rapid charging during the first "formation" stage of the battery cells (first 1000 miles if you like) has benefit on the cells and its degradation rate later on.

 

Most EV's will have battery temperature management system. If you rapid charge regularly, the system will keep all temperature in check and no need to worry about increased degradation. The Leaf 40kWh had problem because it did not include any active temperature management, but it did employ reduced rapid charging speed as strategy to manage temperature. So you can see even the cheapest, least engineered cars will protect the battery.

 

Another thing got to remember is that unlike longevity of engines, where a broken part means the engine will not work. A slowly degraded battery will still allow the car to be driven, albeit fewer miles between charges. 

Let's say my Leaf has 50% battery degradation, never been reported with UK cars. It only has 40 miles range. That is still enough range to do school runs and pop to the shops. It is still valuable to my family as a local runabout, unlike a broken waterpump/cambelt/turbo in an ICE.

[PetrolDave]

15 hours ago, Gizmo said:

I think you are getting your wires crossed a bit, most home charging is done by fast charging and is what is recommended (a dedicated EV wall charger)

rather than the 3 pin ‘granny charger’ (trickle charging)

If you have a restricted current mains feed (not everyone has a 60A company fuse, many older properties are still limited to 40A) then it's worth thinking about whether the total current drain while fast charging an EV and cooking the family evening meal (assuming you cook by electric and still have a family evening meal!) could exceed that - especially if you have an electric shower and someone has a shower at the same time.

 

You really don't want to blow the main company fuse - getting that replaced isn't something you can do yourself, unless you happen to be a fully certified electrician and have the necessary tool to remake the seal you'll be waiting a while without any electricity (except maybe from your solar cells if you have them).

[Gizmo]

The vast majority of people will charge overnight though surely? 

 

Especially if if you have an E7 / E10 etc tariff. 

[PetrolDave]

30 minutes ago, Gizmo said:

The vast majority of people will charge overnight though surely? 

 

Especially if if you have an E7 / E10 etc tariff. 

But they will plug the EV in when they get home (before they start cooking dinner) so it will start charging then; they won't go back out to the car later in the evening and plug it in then

 

E7/E10 tariffs have a big downside - in that all usage outside of the off-peak period costs more, so if you are at home all day (stay at home parent, work from home adult, retired, etc.) then E7/E10 tariffs will often end up costing more.

Edited 31 January, 2019 by PetrolDave

[Gizmo]

You don’t need to, set the timer in the car to start charging at your required time (0030 for us) 

[PetrolDave]

15 minutes ago, Gizmo said:

You don’t need to, set the timer in the car to start charging at your required time (0030 for us) 

Do all EVs have a timer so you can specify when they start charging?

[wyx087]

1 hour ago, PetrolDave said:

Do all EVs have a timer so you can specify when they start charging?

Yes. From MiEV to Leaf to eGolf to Kona to Tesla. Every single plug-equipped EV (including PHEV) out there has this capability.

 

1 hour ago, PetrolDave said:

E7/E10 tariffs have a big downside - in that all usage outside of the off-peak period costs more, so if you are at home all day (stay at home parent, work from home adult, retired, etc.) then E7/E10 tariffs will often end up costing more.

True.

 

But going EV will mean almost double your usage. Overall you'd still save a lot by switching to off-peak tariff.

 

Also, more reason to install roof-top solar PV, if you are home all day.

[DavidY]

On 30/01/2019 at 08:41, wyx087 said:

 

Plus, moderate sized battery means less pollution during production. The range offered by large 70+kWh battery are rarely used for most people on most days, but you have to carry the weight, causing more pollution.

But unfortunately manufacturers seem to think bigger battery is the answer. Whilst not investing nowhere near enough in charging infrastructure.

 

Must admit I'd thought along the lines that I'd look at electric cars when the range gets to 400 miles or similar. But you're right that the car would have to lug all that extra weight around all the time (and the car would cost significantly more in the 1st place), for a capability that didn't get used that often.

Adding 33% to the range of a petrol/diesel car is as simple as making a bit more space for a bigger tank. Yes there are trade-offs- eg usable space for passengers and also in economy figures if you drive round with a full tank all the time, but it's all pretty marginal compared to the cost and problems of taking a 300 mile range EV up to a 400 mile range EV.

So for long journeys, range extenders would be one good way, but my favourite idea is standardised, driver-replaceable EV batteries:

 

Imagine being able to "fill up" by swapping your flat battery for a charged one at a "petrol station" or whatever we'll call it. That could be quicker than even filling an ICE tank.

 

And you could leave a second battery at home plugged into your Solar PV to charge during the day, if you had it, while you were driving around using the other battery.

 

It would also help folk who haven't got off street parking where they can plug a car in - you take the battery out, charge at home overnight, and carry the charged battery back to the car in the morning to drive off.

 

And if I really want a 400 mile range car, then maybe I can unplug some the battery modules to save weight for most of the time, but fit the full set before a long journey. Although quick swapping of standardised battery packs at garages would mean ultimate range wouldn't be such an issue in any case.

 

I'm sure there are one or two teeny practical details and difficulties with my scheme (actually I'm sure someone (?Renault?) thought of it already)  though...

Edited 31 January, 2019 by DavidY

[vRSAnt]

These batteries are pretty huge and heavy......
are you suggesting realistically going from lightly filling a nozzle by hand, or pushing in a charging socket - to lugging around batteries - have you thought this through Thought could be used as an alternative to gyms perhaps......

Just an example
22kWh (18.8kWh usable), LMO/NMC, large 60A prismatic cells, battery weighs 204kg (450 lb) driving range of 130–160km (80–100 miles)

Would keep you fit for sure ~1Kg per 0.5 miles, I don't relish that effort lol

[DavidY]

1 minute ago, vRSAnt said:

These batteries are pretty huge and heavy......
are you suggesting realistically going from lightly filling a nozzle by hand, or pushing in a charging socket - to lugging around batteries - have you thought this through Thought could be used as an alternative to gyms perhaps......

Just an example
22kWh (18.8kWh usable), LMO/NMC, large 60A prismatic cells, battery weighs 204kg (450 lb) driving range of 130–160km (80–100 miles)

Would keep you fit for sure ~1Kg per 0.5 miles, I don't relish that effort lol

Lol!
Well I did think there might be some practical details I admit I didn't realise they were quite that heavy per kWh/ mile of range.

 

That said, the filling station swap thing would still be possible as there could be some machine which takes a battery from, say, the bottom of the car and lifts in a new one.

[vRSAnt]

Maybe a handy T101 from cyberdine perhaps could do it

[DavidY]

9 minutes ago, vRSAnt said:

Maybe a handy T101 from cyberdine perhaps could do it

 

I'm sure nothing could go wrong with that.

 

That said, once cars become self-driving then if you haven't a charging point at home, your car could go and drive itself somewhere with lots of charging points to charge itself overnight, and drive back in the morning.  Again, not much to go wrong there...