Anyone done a 360 in terms of cars (Nissan Leaf to VRS 220)

[DavidY]

On 25/01/2019 at 10:17, wyx087 said:

Only reason for Octavia (or any fossil fuel car) would be if you regularly drive ultra long distances. The Hyundai Kona EV can do 300 miles on one charge, so you'd have to drive over 250 miles every single day for fossil fuel to make sense.

 

I think you mean 279 miles WLTP for a Kona...
https://www.drivingelectric.com/news/727/kia-e-niro-and-hyundai-kona-have-official-wltp-range-corrected

And that's not counting the range reduction for cold temperatures (which I'm not sure is published anywhere?) so you might be looking at 200 miles realistic range when trying to plan a journey at this time of year.

Also, the "250 miles every single day" thing is a total red herring unless you have 2 cars.

If I drive a 250 mile journey once a year, I'm not going to want to faff around with having to stop for ages (anything more than 5 minutes) at some depressing service station to charge it that one day. That's still enough to put me off a really expensive car.

 

Plug-in hybrids with enough battery range to cover weekly commute and ICE for those other days are the way forward for many people, I think.

[Gizmo]

I actually gave answers to your questions before as you put it I went straight into patronising mode.

 

Many suppliers offer 100% green energy (which is no dearer the fossil fuelled energy) OK I agree my ‘next to nothing’ statement is not really accurate, but it is dropping drastically every year.

 

27 minutes ago, ExSEAT said:

Amateur google research shows the leaf as one of the fastest depreciating cars. Autotrader shows 2016 leafs for sale ranging from 11,500 all the way up to 17k, for a reason I dont understand. I see that starting prices can be upwards of £30k. Which is 7k more than the price of my car before extras.

 

I thought the cheapest (245) vRS started at over £27.5K? so yes the top of the range Leaf Tekna is indeed £2.5K dearer but will include many of the cost options on a vRS as std:

• KESSY
• Lane assist / blind spot detection
• Heated seats and steering wheel
• Heated windscreen
• ACC
• Electric folding mirrors
• Front and rear parking sensors
• Front Assist
• Parking camera
• Canton sound system

Now you may not want those options but i'm trying to compare similar specks, if you added all of those then the vRS goes to over £30K (yes both can be bought cheaper through a broker like carwow etc, we added over £2.5K worth of options and it still came in less than £30K) or are you talking about s/h vehicles? (you quoted £30K starting price so i'm unsure which you meant?) 

 

48 minutes ago, ExSEAT said:

I wouldnt want to drive a car that is a huge compromise when i do. Thats before we start on looks, performance and convenience.

 

Agreed, if you have to compromise on everything then you have bought the wrong car (hence why the Mrs drives it differently to most EV drivers, she drives it just like her previous ICE cars.

Looks is very personal (like the f/l headlights on the Octavia... very split who like and hates them)

Performance, well most EV’s are certainly not what you would call a performance car, but with the power delivered instantly a Leaf with ‘only 150hp’ is just as quick (up to NSL) as out 200hp 4x4 Yeti was, so they are certainly not slow.

Convenience? not sure where you are going with that one but the Mrs has the ability to do nearly a whole weeks worth of driving every morning as the car can be ‘full’ every morning.

[Ootohere]

Good enough performance for many with EV's. 

6 years Interest free loan in Scotland from the Government for EV's.

Grants for home chargers and free parking and charging in some areas.

So if the range suits and tax breaks work out or the economy of cheap or free charging then some will fill their boots.

(Hopefully range with Seats and boot full is OK.  Sadly no Tow Bars can be fitted in the UK with Kia Niro Hybrid, Plug in hybrid or EV.. )

 

 

 

 

[PetrolDave]

2 hours ago, Gizmo said:

Many suppliers offer 100% green energy (which is no dearer the fossil fuelled energy)

Yes you PAY for 100% green energy be put onto the National Grid  but there is no way you can guarantee that you USE 100% green energy - unless you pay to build a complete new parallel distribution network to which only green generating sources and customers paying for green energy are attached (and that would be hideously expensive).

Edited 27 January, 2019 by PetrolDave

[Ootohere]

Your Unleaded petrol might come out the Green Nozzle pump but it is not green.  Diesel from a black pump and can be greener than the petrol.

 

The Electricity from Nuclear, Hydro, Oil-Gas, Solar or Wind Generation is not green but then that is just the same as is lighting your home and your businesses.

If down south produced some more renewables there would be no need for 'coal fired' power stations ready to fire up, or 'diesel farms' ready to fire up.

[alltorque]

I recently did a sort of 170 degree turn......Fabia 1.2tsi/110 DSG SE L to a Gen 4 Toyota Prius Business Edition+.  Lovely thing to drive and not at all a sluggard. And more standard toys than Hamleys. LED headlights are wonderful but not tried the self-parking yet and the drive system is superb. I didn't even intend to even sit in a Prius but the young sales guy said; "Aw, just try it, nothing to lose, eh?". 

[hobbie2k]

Many times.  My first car was a '76 Ford F-250 pickup with a 390ci V8.  My second was an S13 Nissan 240SX.

I once traded in a loaded MkV VW Jetta 2.0TSI for a base, no option, Chevy Cobalt 2-door in order to get payments down.  Two weeks later my wife was pregnant.

I had a '96 Mercury Cougar XR7 (4.6L V8) and a '93 Pontiac Bonneville SSEi (3.8L supercharged), sold them both to buy a '96 GMC Jimmy 4x4 for the wife.

[SashaGrace]

18 hours ago, ExSEAT said:

Amateur google research shows the leaf as one of the fastest depreciating cars. Autotrader shows 2016 leafs for sale ranging from 11,500 all the way up to 17k, for a reason I dont understand.

Some older Leaf’s will be battery leased and some will be battery owned, hence the disparity. Nissan started selling the Leaf with a battery and a few years later gave customers the option with the Flex scheme however a Flex car could not be battery owned as it said Flex on the V5 and Nissan wouldn’t sell you a battery. Then they changed their minds and decided that they would sell batteries to Flex car owners as well. The Flex cars weren’t £30k to start and then there are 2 states of kWh. If I bought a Leaf for £30k 3 years ago and got £15k back for it, that would make it on par with buying a new diesel Golf according to market stats on depreciation. When considering the Citigo I looked at a Leaf and a Zoe and I thought both were great but the Leaf was a £200 per month lease in Tekna (top) spec at the time and the Zoe was £160 per month with the battery for the miles I did in the Citigo and I was tempted as the Zoe would have undercut the Citigo as a whole lease/pcp term cost with running costs included. The space inside the EV’s is great as there is no fuel tank in the way so there is loads of space on a small platform. This is why I think the cars that are designed to be EV from the start do it better than ones that have been modified to fit it. I ended up with the Citigo not because of range anxiety, but because I knew I was moving and I couldn’t guarantee the house I was moving to would have a driveway due to budget and as it happens the house doesn’t have a drive. If it did, I would have an EV in no time and I honestly think the only car I’d be interested in right now that would tempt me out of my vRS is a Tesla Model S. I am aware of their issues and if you watch Rich Rebuilds on YouTube you’ll get a feel for what the company is like. Despite this I’d love to give a Model S a go. Not a Model 3 though!!

[PetrolDave]

14 hours ago, Skoffski said:

If down south produced some more renewables there would be no need for 'coal fired' power stations ready to fire up, or 'diesel farms' ready to fire up.

Within 20 miles of where I live in Devon there are multiple solar farms and 3 large wind farms, so there IS renewable generation "down South" 

[Ootohere]

There you go then, good if there is a means of storing that electricity that can be generated rather than paying the companies to not generate because the National Grid does not need it and would rather take from the more expensive sources.

Using that to produce hydrogen would be 'simply clever' as well because Green Transport needs a mix of means of energy.

Not that much in the way of Hydro Storage in the south so Home and Vehicle Battery storage makes lots of sense.

Starting with Local Authority Vehicles and short distance use Light Goods vehicles being EV's just makes sense.  And Taxis / Private Hire vehicles.

[wyx087]

On ‎25‎/‎01‎/‎2019 at 13:24, Scot5 said:

You're defending the indefensible.

 

If your EV is almost empty and you get phone call that your kid has been in an accident and has been taken to hospital...   I'm not sure waiting on a rapid charger would be welcomed. Even if you were to wait until you had enough juice to get you there, you better hope their EV bay isn't in use, or indeed hasn;t broken down  - where are you going to plug in your rapid charger?

 

As per above, there are advantages and disadvantages to everything in life, but to suggest that ICE benefits only those who cover ultra long distances is nonsense.  If you have an EV, you must accept there are times when your car cannot be used. 

Sounds a bit like you are moving the goal post, it was comparing refuelling time. Now you are saying the car must be available at all times, no longer refuelling time comparison.

 

If high availability is the requirement, then buy an EV where you can have more than required charge after your usual day usage (keep in mind most people's commute is less than 30 miles). Then simply plug it in and start charging everytime you arrive home. It would add 20 odd miles every hour. Best part is that you don't have to stand around to wait for it to refuel.

 

Public charger (rapid or slower) availability is indeed a problem. This is because unlike Tesla and petrol stations, they only install one charger per location. If you frequently require quickly charge up your car (which is only driving long distances), currently a Tesla is the only viable EV.

 

On ‎26‎/‎01‎/‎2019 at 00:21, tunedude said:

Until they're able to develop a charging solution which doesn't take a long time, the only electric powered vehicle to make any sense is a hybrid. The eco of having the electric to do the stop start traffic situations, but the ease of switching to a petrol or diesel engine when needed. 

 

An electric car would make sense for a person who was able to, for example, drive to work, charge it whilst on shift and then again once they're home. However, as I've seen working around the country and has been pointed out above, there just isn't the availability to charge electric cars. Even in places, such as London, the amount of charging points is limited compared to the amount of petrol stations. It does make a mockery of them promoting ULEZ's and us using greener cars.

 

Another reason a lot of people wouldn't choose an electric car is their poor range. The Nissan Leaf claims a combined range of 168 miles. My bike with only a 20 litre tank, can easily get over 200 miles of range. So if I needed to go to London in an electric car, I'd be forced to stop half way down the M40. If there's a proper charger at a service station, you'd potentially be on your way in around an hour, but if you're forced to use a standard mains plug, you're not continuing for hours. A journey which would usually take 4 odd hours, would end up taking potentially 7 hours.

As long as you have a driveway, range is never a problem. Neither is recharging time. How long does your car sit idle on your driveway each day?

The amount of public charging points is irrelevant because majority of your car's energy is delivered at home.

 

I feel 200 miles is enough for any car. You got to stop stretch your legs every few hours. 200 miles is 3 hours of solid motorway driving with zero congestion. My 150 miles to my parents usually takes 3 hours, with a pit-stop in the middle. I've driven my 24kWh Leaf on that trip, it required too many charging stops. If my Leaf were ~35kWh, I'd only need to stop once in the middle, like I would do with ICE car.

 

You'd never use mains plug for 7 hours on a journey. Don't take slow recharge time to heart. Like fossil fuel cars, you'd never run completely empty, similarly, you can slow charge just enough for you to get to the next rapid charger.

[wyx087]

 

19 hours ago, ExSEAT said:

Can you elaborate on these for a non educated non EV owner?

 

Im seeing articles about huge depreciation and honest john has a comparison for similar cars which shows break even points. For some cars the break even is around 90,000 miles for having the EV. A lot less if you need to drive into london everyday of course. 

 

I only do 6-7k a year, I dont think it would work for me. My 'fossil' fuel car just completed 315 miles on a full tank with a claimed 75 mile range remaining. No stopping for 315 miles to plug it in (I only know of 2 chargers in my town) or coming home from work worrying about having the heater on and then plugging it in outside in the rain! Oh and the leaf more than likely runs on fossil fuel anyway, just not as directly as ICE cars 

Depreciation calculations are always from RRP. The RRP includes government grant, meaning a few years ago you get 16.7% depreciation on day 0 of a £30k car. Back in 2016/2017, the public hadn't caught on the idea of EV, Nissan were also offering £5000 deposit contribution, so £10k off the sticker price.

Unfortunately it's different now, demand for EV is higher, supply hadn't increased. So there's hardly any good EV deals around, while second hand price have increased.

 

My '64 24kWh Leaf Tekna at 18k miles costed us £9140 in October 2017 from main dealer with 1 yr warranty and 2 free servicing. If you go search on Autotrader now for a similar car (same year, model, <30k miles) you'd be looking at around £10k.  Zero depreciation over 1.2 years.

Like this thread, people are realising EV works fantastic as local runabout. High demand with limited supply of second hand cars. It will continue like this for a few years to come.

 

On your 300 miles journey, are you saying you really hadn't stopped at all? To stretch your legs and do other business. That stop can comfortably change from 15min quick stop to 30min leisurely stop.

 

Plugging in and unplug only takes 5 seconds each time. Think about how long does it take you to push the petrol nozzle into the car, that's exactly how much work you need to do to plug in an EV. Difference is, you don't have to stop every 2 weeks to take 10-15min to do this, only 10s each day. Another difference is you don't have to scrape ice off windows every morning when you unplug your preheated, 100% charged car.

 

18 hours ago, DavidY said:

If I drive a 250 mile journey once a year, I'm not going to want to faff around with having to stop for ages (anything more than 5 minutes) at some depressing service station to charge it that one day. That's still enough to put me off a really expensive car.

 

Plug-in hybrids with enough battery range to cover weekly commute and ICE for those other days are the way forward for many people, I think.

 

Once a year and you are calling this a compromise?

 

Would you buy a van because you will need to move in next few years?

Ah, I see you drive an estate because you might need the boot space once on a blue moon?  (sorry for generalisation, but how often do you see MPV/SUV/estates travel empty?)

 

People over estimate their car needs on a regular basis. I used to drive a small Mercedes C coupe, need bigger once a year? I'd rent.

For my family, the Leaf is good enough for 70% of our motoring needs, my wife sometimes wants to drive somewhere, that's why we have 2 cars to cover 28% of those days. The last 2% of driving long distance (eg, beyond Leicester, Bristol from N London) we could rent if we don't have the Skoda.

 

 

Problem I have with plug-in hybrids is that it is not a good ICE car due to the added weight and complexity, it's also a horrible EV. Its EV range is short, its electric only power has been castrated. If you demand 100% power, the ICE still kicks in. The ONLY good plug-in hybrid is i3 Range Extender, because it is an EV first, with a petrol engine for those who are on the fence.

 

15 hours ago, PetrolDave said:

Yes you PAY for 100% green energy be put onto the National Grid  but there is no way you can guarantee that you USE 100% green energy - unless you pay to build a complete new parallel distribution network to which only green generating sources and customers paying for green energy are attached (and that would be hideously expensive).

Think of the National Grid as a bucket of water. The water you take may not be 100% green, but the water you pay to put back is 100% green. So you are effectively filling up on green "water". As more and more battery (home battery or on EV) are connected, they can be used to solve problem of renewable's time dependant nature, allowing higher utilisation of renewables.

 

The best thing with EV is that in X years down the line, you won't be subjected to pollution related tax like current 5 year old diesels. In X years, everyone's EV will be greener than before because the national grid has higher percentage of renewables.

[PetrolDave]

15 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

The best thing with EV is that in X years down the line, you won't be subjected to pollution related tax like current 5 year old diesels. In X years, everyone's EV will be greener than before because the national grid has higher percentage of renewables.

Until the Government change the rules because they're not getting enough tax revenue...

[ExSEAT]

3 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

 

On your 300 miles journey, are you saying you really hadn't stopped at all? To stretch your legs and do other business. That stop can comfortably change from 15min quick stop to 30min leisurely stop.

 

Plugging in and unplug only takes 5 seconds each time. Think about how long does it take you to push the petrol nozzle into the car, that's exactly how much work you need to do to plug in an EV. Difference is, you don't have to stop every 2 weeks to take 10-15min to do this, only 10s each day. Another difference is you don't have to scrape ice off windows every morning

 

Some interesting info, thanks for taking the time on the back story! I can understand how buying an older car (and hitting it slightly lucky by the sound of it) could result in a very inexpensive experience for you. 

 

Ive quoted the bit above as I wanted to clear some stuff up. On the recent 315 mile journey of course I took a break, I took a week long break to go snowboarding in Italy. When I got back I did the other half of my journey non stop. This afternoon I will spend 5 minutes putting another 350ish miles back on the range.

 

A couple of years ago I drove from the north west coast of cumbria down to the other side of kent, stopping once for a sandwich. I think that was around 300 ish miles, I fuelled up on the return leg of course. How many stops would I have made if I had (for example) a leaf? It was summer and 70mph motorway driving, just me and a bag in the car with the aircon on all the way. Genuine question! 

 

Ive been fortunate this year so far owing to my driving schedule that I havent had to contend with the ice. Purely for satirical comparisons I wouldnt buy a car based on the chance of having to clear some ice next year anymore than I would buy a van in case I was to move house next year!

 

You do make a good case though. If it was a cheap second car then I may consider it. Im not chasing the bottom line though, I often buy the car I want vs the car I need. Same way I may choose to eat a curry when I could instead survive on a bowl of rice.

 

[PetrolDave]

21 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

My 150 miles to my parents usually takes 3 hours, with a pit-stop in the middle. I've driven my 24kWh Leaf on that trip, it required too many charging stops. If my Leaf were ~35kWh, I'd only need to stop once in the middle, like I would do with ICE car.

So by your own admission many (most?) EVs are still not suitable for those of us who regularly do long trips?

 

And when EV takeup is much greater will there be enough public charging points, or will there be long queues at roadside charging points? The cost and logistics of providing high power fast recharging points at motorway service areas and trunk road cafes is not insignificant. And who is going to pay for that? - as always it will be Joe Public. So instead of paying for fossil fuels we'll be paying for infrastructure.

[ChoonDoode]

13 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

As long as you have a driveway, range is never a problem. Neither is recharging time. How long does your car sit idle on your driveway each day?

The amount of public charging points is irrelevant because majority of your car's energy is delivered at home.

 

I feel 200 miles is enough for any car. You got to stop stretch your legs every few hours. 200 miles is 3 hours of solid motorway driving with zero congestion. My 150 miles to my parents usually takes 3 hours, with a pit-stop in the middle. I've driven my 24kWh Leaf on that trip, it required too many charging stops. If my Leaf were ~35kWh, I'd only need to stop once in the middle, like I would do with ICE car.

 

You'd never use mains plug for 7 hours on a journey. Don't take slow recharge time to heart. Like fossil fuel cars, you'd never run completely empty, similarly, you can slow charge just enough for you to get to the next rapid charger.

 

Yes, my car is at home for at least 12 hours a day and I appreciate charging it there would not be an issue. However, saying that public charging points are irrelevant is a bit daft. As has been pointed out in several reviews of electric cars, even if you're stopped on your way to work, the shops, where ever, you're still using electricity to power lights, the radio, heaters / AC and so your theoretical range is all of a sudden taking a bit of a nobbling, due to the car potentially not being able to make use of braking energy recovery. So that normal journey which may be short enough for you not to worry about recharging for coming home is now causing an issue. I'm sure we've all been there; police shut a road because of an accident and then every man and his wife are forced to use the alternative road, which quickly turns into a car park.

 

Plus, I don't know how many times I've forgotten (plus all drivers on Earth) to throw motion lotion into any of my vehicles, but this is more of a minor 20 minute inconvenience with a liquid fuelled car. Imagine the hoo har you'd be in if you forgot to plug in your electric car........

 

I understand these scenarios will appear extreme, but this is the world we live in. Nothing is perfect and you have to expect the unexpected.  

[Adrian55555]

We have a 2013 nissan leaf tekna which the wife uses to go to work and back about 8 mile round trip so it is ideal!  No road tax insurance is about the same and doesnt cost much to recharge once a week!  

[wyx087]

12 minutes ago, ExSEAT said:

A couple of years ago I drove from the north west coast of cumbria down to the other side of kent, stopping once for a sandwich. I think that was around 300 ish miles, I fuelled up on the return leg of course. How many stops would I have made if I had (for example) a leaf? It was summer and 70mph motorway driving, just me and a bag in the car with the aircon on all the way. Genuine question! 

 

11 minutes ago, PetrolDave said:

So by your own admission many (most?) EVs are still not suitable for those of us who regularly do long trips?

 

And when EV takeup is much greater will there be enough public charging points, or will there be long queues at roadside charging points? The cost and logistics of providing high power fast recharging points at motorway service areas and trunk road cafes is not insignificant. And who is going to pay for that? - as always it will be Joe Public. So instead of paying for fossil fuels we'll be paying for infrastructure.

The Leaf is not suitable for long distance driving, not the 24kWh first released in 2011, not the 30kWh, the 2018 40kWh is questionable. The shape of Leaf is very draggy so at above 60mph consumes unreasonably more than at 30mph. PM motor is also inefficient at high speeds.

 

But it doesn't mean most EV isn't suitable for long trips. For a 300 miles trip, a 64kWh Kona EV would only require 1 quick stop at 2/3 of the way there. Most new EV's now can do 200 miles or more, so 300 miles trip with a single stop in the middle is not too much different to driving ICE long trip.

 

Tesla, a start-up company on a tight budget, have managed to install many chargers at many locations. Car manufacturers need to pay for charging network, but unfortunately traditional ICE car manufacturers don't have the incentive to do that, because keep selling polluting ICE cars is easier and more profitable.

 

Tesla have also installed battery banks into their charging points, reducing the need for ultra high power electricity cabling. With battery to do demand smoothly, you won't need to install beefy cable to meet peak demand. Battery pack can also help the grid and earn revenue.

 

[wyx087]

38 minutes ago, tunedude said:

 

Yes, my car is at home for at least 12 hours a day and I appreciate charging it there would not be an issue. However, saying that public charging points are irrelevant is a bit daft. As has been pointed out in several reviews of electric cars, even if you're stopped on your way to work, the shops, where ever, you're still using electricity to power lights, the radio, heaters / AC and so your theoretical range is all of a sudden taking a bit of a nobbling, due to the car potentially not being able to make use of braking energy recovery. So that normal journey which may be short enough for you not to worry about recharging for coming home is now causing an issue. I'm sure we've all been there; police shut a road because of an accident and then every man and his wife are forced to use the alternative road, which quickly turns into a car park.

 

Plus, I don't know how many times I've forgotten (plus all drivers on Earth) to throw motion lotion into any of my vehicles, but this is more of a minor 20 minute inconvenience with a liquid fuelled car. Imagine the hoo har you'd be in if you forgot to plug in your electric car........

 

I understand these scenarios will appear extreme, but this is the world we live in. Nothing is perfect and you have to expect the unexpected.  

 

Unlike fossil fuel, you can recharge at home. So if you always leave home with 100% and know you usually use, say, 80% of the battery each day. Public charging is irrelevant for normal daily usage. Apart from Ikea (for £6 off) and a few other free public charging places, I've not used or needed any public charger.

(I should clarify: I think public chargers are irrelevant for daily usage. Motorway/A road service rapid/super chargers are super important for EV to be useful long distances)

 

Don't know about you, I never run my cars empty. It's the same with EV, you wouldn't commute with an EV and arrive home with 0 miles left and no breathing room to deal with detours or hours of traffic jams.

 

My Leaf moving at constant 60mph needs 15-20kW of power.

Car electronics, lights, wiper, heated seats, heated steering wheel and heater to maintain cabin temperature uses at maximum 2kW.

So you need to sit in my Leaf for over 10 hours stationary to consume all of its battery power. Longer with bigger battery cars and more efficient electronics.

 

Brake energy regeneration is not significant enough to make any difference, unless you are driving down the Alps. Over 12k miles of my Leaf, 3000kWh energy used, only 500kWh came from regenerative braking.

 

I do wonder how often people would forget to plug in. No one in my family have failed to plug in their smart phone at night, EV ownership is the same.

In a way, EV to ICE cars is similar to smart phones to feature phones. One lasts days the other needing a recharge every day. I remember people telling me their N95 lasts days and my first-gen iPhone is useless because it can't last 2 days.

Edited 28 January, 2019 by wyx087

[PetrolDave]

32 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

Tesla have also installed battery banks into their charging points, reducing the need for ultra high power electricity cabling. With battery to do demand smoothly, you won't need to install beefy cable to meet peak demand. Battery pack can also help the grid and earn revenue.

That's fine while there aren't many EVs but when most cars are EVs then the battery banks will be discharged more rapidly and on bank holidays the demand is quite likely to outstrip the ability of a restricted power feed to recharge the battery banks - I can see the headlines in the tabloid press now "Families stranded on Bank Holiday at M1 motorway service area unable to recharge their EV".

 

We all need to think about the real world issues and solve them now while there are relatively few EVs on the road, solving them later once problems have gained public/media attention will be much more difficult and more costly since some of the infrastructure may need to be replaced. Doing it right first time is always cheaper in the long term.

[Ootohere]

When Road Fuels are in short supply it is not long until things come to a grinding halt.

Chaos and mayhem.   Time will tell on that one.  A bit like when IT and ATM's and card readers go down.

That IT issue will always be a EV potential problem in the UK.

Someplace that can not even have reliable GPS, or Phone or Radio Reception Nationwide.

 

South Coast of the UK and the need for Tourism and belching / farting cows etc for the economy should be pleased to have EV's introduced.

There is pollution coming across from Continental Europe and from north of the South Coast.

Traffic Jams etc. 

The Oil & Gas is Imported and road fuels and even electricity, 

yet plenty sun, sea, water, wind and population. 

 

The real world issue is that everyone wants someone else to cut their emissions.    Real issue is that the South with the big population gets Electricity at cheaper tariffs than oop north where lots of electricity is produced and tariffs are high.

 

Lets see how much pollution around the south is there if issues with Customs and many miles of at near standstill traffic this summer.

Maybe the price of imported petrol and diesel will have some rethinking their hesitation on getting EV's.

Edited 28 January, 2019 by Skoffski

[DavidY]

On 28/01/2019 at 09:22, wyx087 said:

Once a year and you are calling this a compromise?

 

People over estimate their car needs on a regular basis. I used to drive a small Mercedes C coupe, need bigger once a year? I'd rent.

For my family, the Leaf is good enough for 70% of our motoring needs, my wife sometimes wants to drive somewhere, that's why we have 2 cars to cover 28% of those days. The last 2% of driving long distance (eg, beyond Leicester, Bristol from N London) we could rent if we don't have the Skoda.

 

Problem I have with plug-in hybrids is that it is not a good ICE car due to the added weight and complexity, it's also a horrible EV. Its EV range is short, its electric only power has been castrated. If you demand 100% power, the ICE still kicks in. The ONLY good plug-in hybrid is i3 Range Extender, because it is an EV first, with a petrol engine for those who are on the fence.

Did I call it a compromise?

Renting cars is always a horrible experience (not that I've done it for years for that reason). I really dislike the need for them to check the car in minute detail when a car is checked in - which means I need to check it in minute detail when checking out so I don't pay for someone else's paint scratch. But I'm no good at that sort of paint/damage checking so no, I wouldn't sign up to any car which required me to rent even occasionally.

I've no problem with drivetrains like that i3 Range Extender making it into other cars though, as it means people can drive decent long journeys without range anxiety/ wasting time, but charging overnight covers most daily journeys near home. And also incidentally go to and from destinations where you might need to be away from home over a few days with no possibility of an electric charge.

Sadly though I did see somewhere that BMW have stopped making the Range Extenders - but I think that sort of hybrid will be crucial if the government wants to move people away from pure ICEs, given realistic battery range is so limited at present.

[wyx087]

10 hours ago, DavidY said:

I've no problem with drivetrains like that i3 Range Extender making it into other cars though, as it means people can drive decent long journeys without range anxiety/ wasting time, but charging overnight covers most daily journeys near home. And also incidentally go to and from destinations where you might need to be away from home over a few days with no possibility of an electric charge.

Sadly though I did see somewhere that BMW have stopped making the Range Extenders - but I think that sort of hybrid will be crucial if the government wants to move people away from pure ICEs, given realistic battery range is so limited at present.

 

Completely agree. Cat-1 according to government grant, large enough battery series plug-in hybrid should be considered an extension of BEV rather than PHEV. Those cars should encouraged.

You drive on battery power most of the time, the REx ICE is only used when you are let down by the chargers, allowing you to continue your journey without ending up on flatbed. I think this is the perfect compromise this side of Tesla.

Plus, moderate sized battery means less pollution during production. The range offered by large 70+kWh battery are rarely used for most people on most days, but you have to carry the weight, causing more pollution.

But unfortunately manufacturers seem to think bigger battery is the answer. Whilst not investing nowhere near enough in charging infrastructure.

[ChoonDoode]

Apologies if this sounds like I'm, again, putting the boot into electric cars.....but.....on a lot of sites discussing the batteries and their performance, the fast charging gets mentioned quite a bit. It's the same with mobiles. Fast charging causes more heat which impacts the longevity of the battery. Trickle charging is advised by a lot of manufacturers as well. 

 

I know you'd have it on on trickle at home, but again, it just shows up the flaws of battery powered cars at the moment. 

[Gizmo]

I think you are getting your wires crossed a bit, most home charging is done by fast charging and is what is recommended (a dedicated EV wall charger)

rather than the 3 pin ‘granny charger’ (trickle charging)

 

Rapid (or Supercharging in the case of Tesla) charging is the MSA type of charging which could effect the battery health if used all the time.

 

Either way most of the manufacturers offer a very long warranty on their batteries (8 years / 100k miles for Nissan)

Edited 30 January, 2019 by Gizmo