Dud battery?

[iduk]

Long time since I posted but as I have had my petrol Yeti DSG for 2 years today I thought I might tap the wisdom of fellow members.  I am a very low mileage user (7500 in 2 years), as being retired most of our trips are to the shops with the occasional trips to places like Cirencester and Devizes.  In early January I attempted to use the radio whilst stationary and got a message on the Infotainment screen to the effect that the battery was low.  I always drive with the start/stop function switched off so did not expect that my short trips would be too much of a problem but as a precaution did a 40 mile round trip to Devizes to charge the battery up, but after a couple of days the problem cropped up again.  I noticed no effect on starting, just the Infotainment message.  It went in for it's service a few days later (Jan 18th) and came back without issue so I forgot about the battery until a week ago when I got the same infotainment message.  I immediately went out and bought a battery charger and connected it up as per the Skoda instructions and apparently the battery was at 11.6 volts and one bar on the capacity indicator.  After 4 hours of trickle charge the battery was 13.1 volts and 2 bars and would power the radio fine whilst standing without the message appearing.  Last weekend we went to London.  About 150miles and I thought that should have charged the battery well up, but no, the charger reading was 12v/1 bar (ie very low charge).  I have just been on to my Skoda dealer who says that it won't necessarily charge up on a run.  In 50 years of motoring, I have never heard of this.  He advised me to try charging it again before taking it in, but that my short trips might have damaged the battery beyond repair and that a new one would mean a hefty bill.  Anybody got a view on this?

[SuperbTWM]

Stop/start cars do not have a normal battery, they usually have an AGM or similar and a battery management system and do not necessarily keep the battery up at full capacity all the time. That said, 11.6 volts is too low.

 

How old is the car?

[xman]

It needs fully charging with a good smart charger minimum of 5 Amp capable.

 

Trickle charging a discharged and probably sulphated (due to prolonged low charge) is not going to recover this battery. A minimum of 48 hours on charge, Lead Acid batteries are inherently slow charging, sulphated batteries even more so, that's why your 40 mile run didn't help much.

 

If a decent long charge doesn't do the trick, think about getting a new battery, and topping it up with a charge regularly if you don't use the car much.

 

Remember to follow the instructions in your owner's manual when connecting the charger, on cars with stop/start, it is important to use the chassis tab and not the negative terminal of the battery to avoid confusing the on board battery management.

 

You need to check the battery type carefully if you replace it. If your car has stop/start it will be fitted with either an EFB or AGM battery, and if you replace an EFB or AGM type, you will need to recode the car with diagnostics to avoid problems. Only replace EFB batteries with EFB, AGM with AGM, or conventional with conventional.

Edited 13 March, 2019 by xman

[Urrell]

4 hours of trickle charge is no good, if low it probably wants 24 hours.
The stop/start batteries need a compatible maintenance charger not just a trickle charger to push the charge into the batteries at about 14.7 volts.

[iduk]

Thanks for all the advice.  At my age all I want is a comfortable car that is reliable and except for a small issue with the A/C drain pipe when it was new it has been just that for the last 2 years.  However, I do not want a car where I need to keep charging the battery up.  I do not use most of the electronic wizardry, so Auto stop-start is switched off as are auto headlights and auto wipers, so I try not to overuse what I took to be a high capacity battery.  If this is likely to be a problem I am surprised that there is not something in the system that warns of low battery condition, as if I had not attempted to use the radio with the engine switched off I would never have known until the car refused to start.  My previous car (diesel people carrier) took almost 8 years before it needed a new battery and then the garage alerted me at a service which SKODA don't seem to do.

 

The charger I purchased is smart (?) and will charge at various speeds but I am wary of doing damage to what seems to be a delicate system.  I will charge for longer and see how things go, but I remain amazed that the battery charge was lower returning from a 150mile trip, much of it on the M4 with a battery still showing low charge.

[Urrell]

2 minutes ago, iduk said:

I will charge for longer and see how things go, but I remain amazed that the battery charge was lower returning from a 150mile trip, much of it on the M4 with a battery still showing low charge.

 

That suggests your problem is one of charging. Why overlook that?

[xman]

6 minutes ago, iduk said:

but I remain amazed that the battery charge was lower returning from a 150mile trip, much of it on the M4 with a battery still showing low charge.

 

Sounds as if your battery is dying. If its only 2 yrs old, check the battery manufacturer (on the battery lid). If it is made by Moll, then contact your dealer about this. A large no of the factory fitted MOLL batteries were faulty and dealers are replacing these free of charge.

[iduk]

Urrell.  I have not discounted that but as the charging light goes off smartly I  will try the battery first as Skoda do not seem to want to do it.

 

Moll, Thanks for that I will check although Skoda didn't mention the likelihood.

[Frenchtone]

^   well they wouldn't would they?

[Rustynuts]

You don't need a new battery. You simply need to charge the one you have correctly. My Yeti does plenty of miles and I stick it on charge every three months or so to make sure it's in good condition. I also use a battery charger with a specific AGM setting suitable for the battery I have. Smart charger could simply mean the manufacturer printed "Smart" on the box.

[Rustynuts]

Double post. Fat fingers.

 

Edited 13 March, 2019 by Rustynuts

[kenfowler3966]

I haven't had to charge a batterry in over 20 years, why would I need to charge it every 3 months if doing enough miles to keep it healthy?

 

Once it is failing it needs to be replaced? It is surprising how a battery can keep going and run the car even with one cell dead as we found on my wifes car at 9 years old on the original battery. That car did only 3.5 to 4k miles a year, and again never had to be charged before the 9 year old battery was replaced due to slow turning of the engine when starting.

[xman]

The difference is, ever since start/stop was introduced (and its now mandatory), simple reliable charging schemes (14.3v constant output alternator) have been replaced with complex micro hybrid battery management schemes of dubious design and implemention/programming. This in turn has required new technology batteries EFB/AGM. Some manufacturers are not capable of producing a reliable and long lasting EFB/AGM, e.g. Moll, somehow VAG chose to use these. These batteries are expected to always be partially charged, something that kills Lead Acid batteries and has been known for over a century.

 

Add to this raft of "improvements” new, complex, electronic/software modules everywhere, that all have to interact and behave perfectly but require reliable power to operate without issues and you can see that everything has changed in the modern world of today.

 

Yes, those "old" cars have batteries that last 10+ years. Those days are gone, at least, for now.

 

Battery manufacturers however welcome this market opportunity!

[iduk]

The rain just stopped so I went out to check the battery.  It is indeed a Moll.  Are these being changed without issue or do I have to argue with someone?

[xman]

32 minutes ago, iduk said:

The rain just stopped so I went out to check the battery.  It is indeed a Moll.  Are these being changed without issue or do I have to argue with someone?

According to this post there has been a TPI issued to dealers.

If you search the forums for Moll are other posts saying they called out Skoda Assist who changed them foc without question.

 

If you have warranty, you can claim, the Skoda Assist route might be easier than the dealer who mayinsist on tests and trying to recharge, but you could phone them and ask the service manager (not the receptionist) saying you know there is a TPI on this

 

TPI bulletins are in house notifications of recognised problems and the course of action the dealer should take to address them

[bob32123]

It’s s wierd thing , but my 2010 Yeti does NOT like me having the radio on without engine running. Within 30 minutes a warning will appear on the dash. The battery has been renewed as well.   Very strange. Also, glad I don’t have the dreaded stop/start, more to go wrong for sure, just like that other latest gimmick, electronic parking brakes. 

[kenfowler3966]

Its meant to do this, to turn off the power drain if you have left it on and gone.

Mine turned itself off yesterday as I was having my luch in the car after 30 mins. Easy enough to turn on again.

[iduk]

If it were not for the Infotainment warning, I would not have suspected a battery problem.  As I said before I don't like the idea of stop-start so switch it off whenever I get in the car, so no warning from that.  I also very rarely have need for lights as I do little night time driving.  Electric seats - never used them, so the drain on my battery should be pretty low.  OK, I admit to a lot of short journeys, but the engine is still hot when I restart, so not much battery power used there.  I got the Yeti because I understood it to be reliable and being elderly need reliability,  but am having second thoughts now.  We will see how willing they are to change the battery.

 

 

[Urrell]

1 hour ago, iduk said:

I got the Yeti because I understood it to be reliable and being elderly need reliability,  but am having second thoughts now.  We will see how willing they are to change the battery. 

So how many other problems have you had on that 2 year old car?

[Llanigraham]

1 hour ago, iduk said:

If it were not for the Infotainment warning, I would not have suspected a battery problem.  As I said before I don't like the idea of stop-start so switch it off whenever I get in the car, so no warning from that.  I also very rarely have need for lights as I do little night time driving.  Electric seats - never used them, so the drain on my battery should be pretty low.  OK, I admit to a lot of short journeys, but the engine is still hot when I restart, so not much battery power used there.  I got the Yeti because I understood it to be reliable and being elderly need reliability,  but am having second thoughts now.  We will see how willing they are to change the battery.

 

 

 

And there-in lies your problem, plus I don't think you understand how the charging system works.

When you start your car, hot or cold, a large number of amps are used from the battery. Those have to be replaced and that takes time, especially with a stop/start equipped car. They are not replaced immediately as that would overload the battery. 

On average it is reckoned that to "refill" a fully battery after a start takes at least a half an hour and somehow I bet your journeys aren't that long. Therefore your battery is gradually reducing it's capacity. 

 

Another forum I am involved with explained it this way:
You have a water tank that holds 100 litres, connected to a supply that provides 5 litres an hour to fill it.
Therefore it will take 20 hours to fill it.
You draw off 20 litres.

2 hours later you draw off another 10 litres.
Result, you are still 2 hours short of a full tank.

The Yeti is reliable as many of us here will tell you, but you have to ask yourself whether your use of any car is suited to your journeys.
 

[iduk]

Urrell.  None, barring a broken condensate line when new, but I have never needed to replace a battery (quote £190) after only 2 years.

 

Lanigraham.  Last Friday, I charged the battery for 4 hours and managed to get the voltage up to 13.1 volts. Saturday I drove for 2 hours.  The car then stood for 2 days and then on Monday I drove back for 2 hours.  Upon arrival home I checked the battery which showed 12 volts and only one segment on the capacity.  If after two x 2 hour runs the battery was not somewhere near fully charged, or at least showing more charge than when I started on Saturday morning I would say there was something wrong.  It seems that modern cars are full of sophisticated electronics that run all manner of electrical  equipment requiring high capacity batteries.  It find it strange therefore under these circumstances that in with all of the sophisticated electronics that we know can detect a low charge there is not some device telling the driver how his battery is operating without waiting for something to cease functioning.

 

As a follow up to earlier comments, I have called the SKODA Driverline who informed me that the battery warranty is only for 1 year (in my experience 2 to 5 years is the norm) and that I should take my Yeti into the dealers who would ascertain what the problem was.  If it was the car, the work would be done under warranty, but if the battery, even if it is a Moll, it's my problem. 

[Expatman]

T

32 minutes ago, Llanigraham said:

 

And there-in lies your problem, plus I don't think you understand how the charging system works.

When you start your car, hot or cold, a large number of amps are used from the battery. Those have to be replaced and that takes time, especially with a stop/start equipped car. They are not replaced immediately as that would overload the battery. 

On average it is reckoned that to "refill" a fully battery after a start takes at least a half an hour and somehow I bet your journeys aren't that long. Therefore your battery is gradually reducing it's capacity. 

 

Another forum I am involved with explained it this way:
You have a water tank that holds 100 litres, connected to a supply that provides 5 litres an hour to fill it.
Therefore it will take 20 hours to fill it.
You draw off 20 litres.

2 hours later you draw off another 10 litres.
Result, you are still 2 hours short of a full tank.

The Yeti is reliable as many of us here will tell you, but you have to ask yourself whether your use of any car is suited to your journeys.
 

Yes, but there are many cars and SUV's around here that do the school run of approx 5 miles twice a day and rarely go much further than to the local supermarket, garden centre and gym etc. No-one has complained of battery failure, but based on your "water" analogy their batteries should be exhausted within a week or so. I suppose it really depends on actually how long it takes to replace the starting charge, maybe much less than the 30 minutes you suggest?

[xman]

54 minutes ago, Llanigraham said:

 

When you start your car, hot or cold, a large number of amps are used from the battery. Those have to be replaced and that takes time, especially with a stop/start equipped car. They are not replaced immediately as that would overload the battery. 
 

 

Too many people are stuck in the past with the simple concept of a alternator charging the battery fully at 14.3 volts

 

Its much more complicated than that nowadays.  Stop/start is now mandatory in the EU and with that we get micro hybrid battery management.  Most Skoda's feature energy recovery too (micro hybrid type 2) so batteries typically are held at a target of 70-80% charge. EFB/AGM batteries may look the same as conventional flooded batteries, but have important differences in their characteristics. Enhanced charge/discharge rates are well known, but little known is their terminal voltage drops much quicker and deeper under discharge so trying to second guess whats going on with a multimeter while the engine is running is not going to work. The battery management varies the output of the alternator constantly, keeping track of SOC (state of charge) using a current sensor on the negative terminal connector as well as voltage, temperature and charge maps stored for the particular type of battery fitted. Also all power consumers are monitored and allows the charging algorithm to dynamically adapt and prepare for various scenarios.

 

https://www.yuasa.co.uk/info/technical/micro-hybrid-hybrid-vehicles-explained/

 

 

Edited 14 March, 2019 by xman

[freedie]

1 hour ago, Llanigraham said:

Result, you are still 2 hours short of a full tank.

 

Yup. I think that sums it up ~ though I might have put it differently.

[Sad555]

Its much more complicated than that nowadays.  Stop/start is now mandatory in the EU and with that we get micro hybrid battery management.  Most Skoda's feature energy recovery too (micro hybrid type 2) so batteries typically are held at a target of 70-80% charge. EFB/AGM batteries may look the same as conventional flooded batteries, but have important differences in their characteristics. Enhanced charge/discharge rates are well known, but little known is their terminal voltage drops much quicker and deeper under discharge so trying to second guess whats going on with a multimeter while the engine is running is not going to work. The battery management varies the output of the alternator constantly, keeping track of SOC (state of charge) using a current sensor on the negative terminal connector as well as voltage, temperature and charge maps stored for the particular type of battery fitted. Also all power consumers are monitored and allows the charging algorithm to dynamically adapt and prepare for various scenarios.

 when did it become mandatory to have stop start and on which cars?.?