DSG torque limits if mapping - have you had joy or tears?

[mr.nik]

In the past I've mapped a vRS (manual) and to be honest, never thought twice about the torque limits of the clutch, just drove it nicely. 
I now have an MY2018 superb 280 and am tempted by a stage 1 map, but I don't want to wreck the DSG :) 

This looks interesting - I used BSR in the past without issue - but the claimed gains are pretty big.. 

http://www.bsr-tuning.co.uk/products/t3085/

which, assuming the figures are real, begs the question: can the DSG box handle the torque?  I've always heard it said that DSG boxes are good for lots more torque, but wikipedia shows this: 

 

List of DSG variants[edit]

Name	Orientation	Ratios	Max. torque (N·m)	Clutch type
DQ200	Transversal	7	250	Dry
DQ250	Transversal	6	400	Wet
DQ380[19]	Transversal	7	380	Wet
DQ381	Transversal	7	420-430	Wet
DQ400e	Transversal	6	400	Wet
DQ500	Transversal	7	600	Wet
DQ511	Transversal	10	550	Wet
DL382	Longitudinal	7	500[20]	Wet
DL501	Longitudinal	7	600	Wet

 

 

my car is MY2018 and i don't know if it;s DQ250 or DQ400e  but either way that table says 400Nm while the map claims 487Nm...   

So, if all the above is true then the answer is in the question: the map is way too much for the DSG box...   

 

but I suppose I'm wondering if anyone has actually put a map with this kind of output on it with the standard DSG box and has either a happy or sorry tale to tell?

 

[Esseesse200]

Speak to racing line performance/Ben from shark and they have done hundreds of golf r’s plenty with 400bhp and well over 500nm reliably 

[Redboy]

1 hour ago, mr.nik said:

In the past I've mapped a vRS (manual) and to be honest, never thought twice about the torque limits of the clutch, just drove it nicely. 
I now have an MY2018 superb 280 and am tempted by a stage 1 map, but I don't want to wreck the DSG

This looks interesting - I used BSR in the past without issue - but the claimed gains are pretty big.. 

http://www.bsr-tuning.co.uk/products/t3085/

which, assuming the figures are real, begs the question: can the DSG box handle the torque?  I've always heard it said that DSG boxes are good for lots more torque, but wikipedia shows this: 

 

List of DSG variants[edit]

Name	Orientation	Ratios	Max. torque (N·m)	Clutch type
DQ200	Transversal	7	250	Dry
DQ250	Transversal	6	400	Wet
DQ380[19]	Transversal	7	380	Wet
DQ381	Transversal	7	420-430	Wet
DQ400e	Transversal	6	400	Wet
DQ500	Transversal	7	600	Wet
DQ511	Transversal	10	550	Wet
DL382	Longitudinal	7	500[20]	Wet
DL501	Longitudinal	7	600	Wet

 

 

my car is MY2018 and i don't know if it;s DQ250 or DQ400e  but either way that table says 400Nm while the map claims 487Nm...   

So, if all the above is true then the answer is in the question: the map is way too much for the DSG box...   

 

but I suppose I'm wondering if anyone has actually put a map with this kind of output on it with the standard DSG box and has either a happy or sorry tale to tell?

 

From your own experience, you probably know that stage 1 will be around 480Nm with a 2.0 TSI, or at least that was what Ben measured my old Octavia 220. How much more torque ahd BHP will you gain if it's already at 280 and torque is 258 lb

[Ootohere]

If you are in Scotland i would be talking to 

http://ecotune-scotland.co.uk

 

[mr.nik]

42 minutes ago, Redboy said:

From your own experience, you probably know that stage 1 will be around 480Nm with a 2.0 TSI, or at least that was what Ben measured my old Octavia 220. How much more torque ahd BHP will you gain if it's already at 280 and torque is 258 lb

 

Current torque max is 350nm according to Skoda. It’s quite detuned compared to the same engine in the golf R. So a map to 480nm is a hell of an increase...  

[Redboy]

35 minutes ago, mr.nik said:

 

Current torque max is 350nm according to Skoda. It’s quite detuned compared to the same engine in the golf R. So a map to 480nm is a hell of an increase...  

I mentioned 480Nm as that was the dyno result of my manual  Octavia  Shark Stage 1 and therefore I would have thought the 280 would benefit similarly. Having just bought a DSG Golf, I am curious to see what the box can take, if I decide to remap it. 

[GnurkeGnurk]

Possible to find out what DSG you have in your car whit the chassi number?

 

Got a superb mk3 2017 2.0 tsi 280 4x4 wonder what dsg i have its 2 dsg 6 DQ250 or DQ400e

Edited 7 June, 2019 by GnurkeGnurk

[penguin17]

 

20 hours ago, mr.nik said:

 

Current torque max is 350nm according to Skoda. It’s quite detuned compared to the same engine in the golf R. So a map to 480nm is a hell of an increase...  

Is it though? 

 

I’ve spoken to a tuner who at the time was developing mk7 Golf R maps and he said there was absolutely no difference in output of the 280/290 Cupra vs the Golf R, all ~300-05 bhp

 

Seeing timed runs of the Superb 280 doing 0-60 in 5.1-3 secs would leave me to believe that Škoda are being conservative with numbers.  I’d surmise that with 99 RON, a clean filter/fresh oil and UK climate/altitude, the Superb 280 is closer to 300bhp. 

 

You can’t have the Škoda having the same performance as its prestige cousins after all 

Edited 8 June, 2019 by penguin17

[mr.nik]

19 hours ago, Redboy said:

I mentioned 480Nm as that was the dyno result of my manual  Octavia  Shark Stage 1 and therefore I would have thought the 280 would benefit similarly. Having just bought a DSG Golf, I am curious to see what the box can take, if I decide to remap it. 

I believe the mk7 golf R has this box, but i wouldn't take that as gospel

 

DQ381

Transversal

7

420-430

Wet

[newbie69]

On 07/06/2019 at 21:04, Redboy said:

From your own experience, you probably know that stage 1 will be around 480Nm with a 2.0 TSI, or at least that was what Ben measured my old Octavia 220. How much more torque ahd BHP will you gain if it's already at 280 and torque is 258 lb

It's not proportional really, especially in terms of torque that you mention. A stage 1 Superb could be making the same torque as a GTI (480Nm) but the difference compared to the smaller turbos on the Octavia and the Golf is at the horsepower. He should easily see close to 370bhp.

 

On 07/06/2019 at 21:48, mr.nik said:

 

Current torque max is 350nm according to Skoda. It’s quite detuned compared to the same engine in the golf R. So a map to 480nm is a hell of an increase...  

Well don't be surprised if you do a baseline run and see 380+ Nm...  I wouldn't say it's "quite detuned" from the dyno numbers I've seen from all the "lesser" cars compared to the R and the S3, well lesser according to the brochures anyway...

 

On 07/06/2019 at 23:04, GnurkeGnurk said:

Possible to find out what DSG you have in your car whit the chassi number?

 

Got a superb mk3 2017 2.0 tsi 280 4x4 wonder what dsg i have its 2 dsg 6 DQ250 or DQ400e

100% no DQ400e in your car, that's a totally different gearbox. 6speed DSG of that age is the DQ250.

 

 

9 hours ago, mr.nik said:

I believe the mk7 golf R has this box, but i wouldn't take that as gospel

 

DQ381

Transversal

7

420-430

Wet

Golf 7R had the DQ250 till the facelift (2017 iirc?), same as the Superb and same as your car since it's the 280.

Golf 7.5R (facelift) now comes with the DQ381, same as the current MY19 Superb 272.



And to answer your question after all these quotes, DQ250 has been proven to deal fine with stage 1 and stage 2 torque and more. Worst case if you experience any slippage or funny behaviour (not very likely) you can always flash the DSG too later on, but it's not a prerequisite per se, at least for stage 1 cars that are not regularly beaten with pulls from low rpm.
 

Edited 9 June, 2019 by newbie69

[GnurkeGnurk]

8 hours ago, newbie69 said:

It's not proportional really, especially in terms of torque that you mention. A stage 1 Superb could be making the same torque as a GTI (480Nm) but the difference compared to the smaller turbos on the Octavia and the Golf is at the horsepower. He should easily see close to 370bhp.

 

Well don't be surprised if you do a baseline run and see 380+ Nm...  I wouldn't say it's "quite detuned" from the dyno numbers I've seen from all the "lesser" cars compared to the R and the S3, well lesser according to the brochures anyway...

 

100% no DQ400e in your car, that's a totally different gearbox. 6speed DSG of that age is the DQ250.

 

 

Golf 7R had the DQ250 till the facelift (2017 iirc?), same as the Superb and same as your car since it's the 280.

Golf 7.5R (facelift) now comes with the DQ381, same as the current MY19 Superb 272.



And to answer your question after all these quotes, DQ250 has been proven to deal fine with stage 1 and stage 2 torque and more. Worst case if you experience any slippage or funny behaviour (not very likely) you can always flash the DSG too later on, but it's not a prerequisite per se, at least for stage 1 cars that are not regularly beaten with pulls from low rpm.
 

Thanks spunds right whit the dsg box. Thanks for very good replay👍 

[mr.nik]

10 hours ago, newbie69 said:

And to answer your question after all these quotes, DQ250 has been proven to deal fine with stage 1 and stage 2 torque and more. Worst case if you experience any slippage or funny behaviour (not very likely) you can always flash the DSG too later on, but it's not a prerequisite per se, at least for stage 1 cars that are not regularly beaten with pulls from low rpm.
 

 

Thanks for sharing all that great knowledge! Great answer. 

[Redboy]

13 hours ago, newbie69 said:

It's not proportional really, especially in terms of torque that you mention. A stage 1 Superb could be making the same torque as a GTI (480Nm) but the difference compared to the smaller turbos on the Octavia and the Golf is at the horsepower. He should easily see close to 370BHP.

 

Great advice from you, thanks. I wasn't doubting any power increase on the Superb 280, I was thinking that the even stage 1 torque output would,  'on paper', be too much for the DSG box.  From what you say, it looks like as long as Santa Pod drags aren't a regular feature, that the DSG boxes will cope with stage 1. 

[Donweather]

On 09/06/2019 at 10:44, newbie69 said:

Golf 7.5R (facelift) now comes with the DQ381, same as the current MY19 Superb 272.

I have a MY20 Superb Sportline (Australia) and it's got a 6 speed DSG.  Any ideas which one it would have and why I missed out on the 7 speed?  Thinking of Stage 1 remap but also have concerns over DSG allowable torque.

[fencer]

The way I understand it on the DQ250 is that it is limited to 400Nm electronically. I don't believe the actual transmission will be harmed - it just limits torque to that number. Hence with a DSG tune that limit can be raised (or essentially switched off). I believe the DQ250 is a pretty hardy unit and can handle more torque easily.

I'm on my second Superb running a JB1 always on 98RON fuel (both 6 speed DQ250) and never experienced an issue with the DSG. But I accept that some torque that is probably being generated by the JB1 cannot be translated through the DSG because it is limited to 400Nm (and I would need to get a DSG tune to fix that).

[newbie69]

7 hours ago, Donweather said:

I have a MY20 Superb Sportline (Australia) and it's got a 6 speed DSG.  Any ideas which one it would have and why I missed out on the 7 speed?  Thinking of Stage 1 remap but also have concerns over DSG allowable torque.

It's an OZ thing apparently, rest of world (at least EU and UK as far as I know) moved to the 272 GPF engines and new DSG7 speed DQ381 in 2019, but as has been reported here by other members, Australian models retained the previous engine and gearbox even after that year.

[JR RS]

15 hours ago, Donweather said:

I have a MY20 Superb Sportline (Australia) and it's got a 6 speed DSG.  Any ideas which one it would have and why I missed out on the 7 speed?  Thinking of Stage 1 remap but also have concerns over DSG allowable torque.

 

If u have a 6 speed, it's definitely DQ250.

 

The DQ250 can more than handle Stage 1 tune power levels.  It can also handle Stage 2 with a TCU tune.

 

I had an APR Stage 2+ tune running on my previous car (mk2 Octavia RS) with the same gearbox - it handled well/fine for 4+ years.

[skidpan]

On 07/06/2019 at 18:01, mr.nik said:

my car is MY2018 and i don't know if it;s DQ250 or DQ400e  but either way that table says 400Nm while the map claims 487Nm...   

 

The DQ400e is only used in the iV so its quite simple, you don't have that box. The clue is the "e" at the end.

[Colin170CR]

I have a 2016 280 (DQ250 6 speed) with a Revo stage 1 remap which theoretically (not tested) is good for around 345-370bhp & 447 - 488nm (fuel dependent).

Details here Revo Stage 1

So far (1 year on) all is well & the DSG is OK except for the normal hesitation you can get in D mode when setting off. In Sport mode it is very much more savage & revs right up to & slightly above the red line before changing. There is a Revo remap available for the DSG as well. Info here Revo DSG stg 1

In D mode the extra torque can be felt without it having to rev the nuts off the engine & using the paddles to shift in manual mode is much more engaging. 

[AlVal]

£10k DQ500 upgrade will keep you relaxed

 

https://tvsengineering.com/en/performance/gearbox-conversions/#dyn-0

 

 

[Donweather]

On 03/07/2021 at 08:18, JR RS said:

I had an APR Stage 2+ tune running on my previous car (mk2 Octavia RS) with the same gearbox - it handled well/fine for 4+ years.

What's your APR Stage 2+ tune pumping through the DSG?

[JR RS]

3 hours ago, Donweather said:

What's your APR Stage 2+ tune pumping through the DSG?

According to "on paper" - about 465 Nm (340 ft-lbs).

Stage 1 was about 420 Nm (309 ft-lbs).

[Donweather]

10 hours ago, JR RS said:

According to "on paper" - about 465 Nm (340 ft-lbs).

Stage 1 was about 420 Nm (309 ft-lbs).

What engine is this for?  Sorry just re read your original post. Octavia Mk2. Wow how on earth do you put all that through the front wheels?

Edited 6 July, 2021 by Donweather
Typo

[JR RS]

1 hour ago, Donweather said:

What engine is this for?  Sorry just re read your original post. Octavia Mk2. Wow how on earth do you put all that through the front wheels?

 

EA888 CCZA 147TSi - same engine as the mk6 GTi.

 

Foot control was the key to getting power down. 

Best time I did for 0-100 was 5.9 secs. 

[Donweather]

8 hours ago, JR RS said:

Best time I did for 0-100 was 5.9 secs. 

That's damn good time for the occy FWD.