Keyless Start/Stop problem

[Stainesy]

Can anyone help please. I have an 18 plate Fabia with a push button start stop ignition. 

There have been a couple of occasions now when the engine has been left running, inadvertently, and even when the keys are well outside the RFID range of the car.  I thought that the engine would cut out automatically if the key fob was too far away from the car?

So three questions.

1. Can the car be set so that the engine will cut out if the fob is not inside the car or within a certain distance of the car

2. Can the car be locked from the outside if the engine is still running?

3. Is is possible to retro fit with a conventional key start barrel and replace the factory fitted push button start system? If so, how much is this likely to cost?

 

[Confused_Cheese]

My car has keyless start/stop, as far as I know its part of kessy and after doing a bit of reading this is just how it is and you can drive the car until it runs out of gas or stops without the key. It looks like with VCDS you can enable locking with the fob outside of the car while its running. I'm no expert on this, just going on responses on another forum.

 

Anything is possible in terms of fitting a regular barrel... but then it won't match the barrels on the doors in an emergency/dead fob battery etc. unless you get them all sorted (the key locks are under the plastic trim by the handle).

 

I have to say, I've never accidentally left the car running after leaving it? Not saying this to flame you, just not sure how that actually happens.

[Auric Goldfinger]

Different model but my 245 Vrs has keyless S/S and entry. Mrs G was driving and she dropped me off on the high street where we live but the key was in my pocket, Mr G drove off and then came to a stop after the engine died. I had to give her the key to re-start and move the car.

[FabiaGonzales]

I think the issue with having it cut out / immobilise if it doesn't detect the key, is that if you had a dead battery, it would cause a lot of hassle.

 

When the fob battery is dead, you have to use the manual lock in the handle, and push the button using the key, the RFID module in the key that will be detected by the button module even if it's flat or even without battery, but the key cannot respond to the normal keep alive requests that the car sends to it to see if it's still in the car.

 

If you had a dead battery you would be constantly setting off, getting immobilised/shut off, then starting up again. Not very practical nor safe!

[Gmac983]

26 minutes ago, Auric Goldfinger said:

Different model but my 245 Vrs has keyless S/S and entry. Mrs G was driving and she dropped me off on the high street where we live but the key was in my pocket, Mr G drove off and then came to a stop after the engine died. I had to give her the key to re-start and move the car.

 

The engine should never just die due to the key being out of range!? Its not designed to do that from a safety point of view, you would absolutely have to switch it off yourself (or stall/run out of fuel). I presume Mrs G ignored the key absent alarm and warning messages/symbols that come up on the cars display, which are there as safety measures present in all keyless entry/start/stop cars, when you left the vehicle taking the key with you and she drove off? 

 

Stainesy. 

In response to your questions. 

1. From a safety point no you absolutely shouldn't be able to. 

2. May be possible through your vehicles menu settings. 

3. Why would you want to? Keyless is one of the better innovations introduce to motoring in recent years IMO. 

Edited 27 September, 2019 by Gmac983

[MKOK]

I just make sure I turn the engine off like I would with a key. The problem is it sounds like you are getting used to not doing anything. Stopping your engine is something you should always do before getting out of your car. Rather than going down what sounds like a costly path to retro fit a key barrel again just get used to using it. I’m sure if you sold it later any messing with it would detract from the price.

[Stainesy]

Thanks everyone for responses so far. Here's the thing. Old tech = key goes into barrel, you turn key to start. You turn key to switch off and simultaneously remove key from barrel in order to then lock car from outside. If your keys keys are in your hand, the engine is impossible to be on. 

 

 

New tech = Fob to unlock car. Keys then into pocket. Start engine with push button. Then, when you are in neutral and at a stop, the engine will cut out to prevent idle pollution.

But, it is possible to reach a destination, forget to push the button to turn off engine, (because you don’t have to physically use the key turn to do so), and inadvertently leave the engine running. 

 

Because you’ve got your keys in your hand and the engine is still running the car could be pinched unless there is an auto cut out if the key fob is out of range. So my point is, what is this range and can it be reduced to just a few meters?

[AGFalco]

Learn to look at the dashboard before you get out of the car might help.

Put the key on the dashboard to start off with.

 

Thanks AG Falco

[Gmac983]

42 minutes ago, Stainesy said:

Thanks everyone for responses so far. Here's the thing. Old tech = key goes into barrel, you turn key to start. You turn key to switch off and simultaneously remove key from barrel in order to then lock car from outside. If your keys keys are in your hand, the engine is impossible to be on. 

 

 

New tech = Fob to unlock car. Keys then into pocket. Start engine with push button. Then, when you are in neutral and at a stop, the engine will cut out to prevent idle pollution.

But, it is possible to reach a destination, forget to push the button to turn off engine, (because you don’t have to physically use the key turn to do so), and inadvertently leave the engine running. 

 

Because you’ve got your keys in your hand and the engine is still running the car could be pinched unless there is an auto cut out if the key fob is out of range. So my point is, what is this range and can it be reduced to just a few meters?

 

I don't understand how you can "accidentally" walk away from a car and leave it "on", even though the engine might have shut down itself already in s/s mode!? (sorry I don't wish to sound rude.)

Im on my second keyless car now and they both would start alarming and showing "key absent" warnings basically as soon as you open the door regardless of whether it has shut itself of in s/s mode already or is still idling as the car recognizes that you may be leaving the vehicle without turning of the ignition. And on approaching the vehicle I would say a couple of metres before the keyless becomes active (surely there's not much point in keyless if you cannot lock/unlock the door keylessly as well). Obviously much further if you are actually using the remote buttons to lock/unlock the car. 

I cannot comment on the fabia specifically but my old citroen grand Picasso would restart its engine when exiting the vehicle in eco s/s mode, I always assumed that it did this to avoid the very thing you are talking about happening. On my new kodiaq I usually switch the start/stop mode off, because the car is a DSG it shuts itself of at every opportunity even if you only halt for a split second and I found that very annoying. However I think it also restarts itself when you exit the vehicle in s/s mode and it also does  the key absent alarm and warning messages. Has anyone else payed attention to what their one does?). 

[VRS_White_Hatch]

So apart from this, and obviously having to use a Faraday bag / box to protect your keys due to the theft risk, and the danger of wandering off with the key if you swap drivers are there any other disadvantages to Keyless start?

 

 

[Rustynuts]

2 hours ago, Stainesy said:

Thanks everyone for responses so far. Here's the thing. Old tech = key goes into barrel, you turn key to start. You turn key to switch off and simultaneously remove key from barrel in order to then lock car from outside. If your keys keys are in your hand, the engine is impossible to be on. 

 

 

New tech = Fob to unlock car. Keys then into pocket. Start engine with push button. Then, when you are in neutral and at a stop, the engine will cut out to prevent idle pollution.

But, it is possible to reach a destination, forget to push the button to turn off engine, (because you don’t have to physically use the key turn to do so), and inadvertently leave the engine running. 

 

Because you’ve got your keys in your hand and the engine is still running the car could be pinched unless there is an auto cut out if the key fob is out of range. So my point is, what is this range and can it be reduced to just a few meters?

I have two Keyless Entry vehicles at the moment. I can't think of ever getting out of the car and going into the house, or the shop, or anywhere really and not realise the engine is still running. Seriously, how can you not be aware that your cars engine is on? Further to this, why are you using the key fob to unlock the car? It should auto unlock when you grab the door handle provided you have the key in your pocket. Unless the Fabia has a unique keyless system which doesn't have keyless unlock but still has keyless starting?

There is no auto cut off range. The engine starts when it detects the key in the car and you press the button, and it stays running until you turn it off irrespective of how far away you drive from the key. Until you stop the engine it keeps going. Auto stop start might just interrupt this and force the car to demand the key, but I've never felt the need to drive anywhere without actually taking the key with me.

 

[Gmac983]

43 minutes ago, VRS_White_Hatch said:

So apart from this, and obviously having to use a Faraday bag / box to protect your keys due to the theft risk, and the danger of wandering off with the key if you swap drivers are there any other disadvantages to Keyless start?

 

 

Where the hell d'u live? What's the farraday cage for? Stopping thieves from scanning you keys or what? Because all of the keyless cars I've been around you need to be within a couple of meters before the keyless comes into effect, is it not some what of a myth that keyless cars have been driven away with the keys in range inside the owners home. 

 

[FabiaGonzales]

54 minutes ago, AGFalco said:

Learn to look at the dashboard before you get out of the car might help.

Put the key on the dashboard to start off with.

 

Thanks AG Falco

I agree, often (almost always) when i stop, the engine automatically turns off for the stop-start, then taking your seatbelt off prevents it coming back on, and opening the door turns the car off completely.

 

If for some reason the engine is still running, i notice that all the dash is still lit up, if i open the door it beeps at me like i've murdered its pet kitten to tell me its still running, not to mention that there's 100kg of engine churning and often ac/cooling/heating fans making a right racket about 3ft away under the bonnet, and if you walk near the rear the exhaust is rumbling away.

 

I think you're just finding problems because you want it to be like the old key method. Ive driven cars with no keyless at all, ive driven remote ones with remote lock/unlock, my fabia has remote lock/unlock and keyless start/stop, but not keyless entry (still have to press the button), and my parents XC40 has full keyless (walk up to it and it opens) and thats the only one i dont like as its unreliable at times and is also Inherently insecure to rfid relays (google keyless car thief youll find videos on it)

[VRS_White_Hatch]

https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/cars/1122322/car-theft-stolen-keyless-entry-hack-your-cars-risk

 

https://www.mirror.co.uk/money/rise-keyless-car-thefts-experts-18945820

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/business-47721590

 

https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/cars/885216/relay-car-theft-keyless-entry-advice-faraday-cage

 

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-tech/101890/how-to-avoid-keyless-theft

 

From Auto Express ...

 

Recent years have seen a spike in vehicle theft, with the last five years witnessing a 48.7 per cent increase in the number of cars being stolen. Experts have linked this trend to falling police officer numbers, and the rising popularity of keyless entry and go systems. Research by a German motoring organisation, for example, tested the keyless systems of 237 different cars, and found only three were able to completely fend off a keyless attack,

But what exactly is keyless theft, how is the industry working against it, and what can you do to protect yourself against it? Auto Express finds out. 

 

What is keyless theft?

The process criminals use to steal a car via keyless theft – also known as relay theft – is relatively simple. First, they buy a relay amplifier and a relay transmitter; these electronic gizmos can be purchased from the darker corners of the internet.

Next, they identify a house with a nice car parked outside and, by using these gadgets, can detect whether the car features keyless entry and go.

 

 

 

I could add links from Insurance companies if that would help? I live in a part of Cheshire easily visited by thieves from both Liverpool and Manchester. I wouldn't like to just leave my keys knocking about knowing someone could amplify the signal even if it is very unlikely to happen. I could leave my house back door unlocked as its very unlikely anyone would climb into the garden and try the door, but I always lock it. Cautious nature I suppose. 

 

Edited 27 September, 2019 by VRS_White_Hatch

[Gmac983]

Hasn't scanning of keys been around since remote central locking came out?

 

[Rustynuts]

Just now, Gmac983 said:

Hasn't scanning of keys been around since remote central locking came out?

 

Intercepting the signal from a keyfob when the user presses the button is an old way of stealing the entry signal for the car. Next generation keyless entry fobs broadcast continuously, so thieves can pick up the signal from inside your house using a signal booster, transmit that signal to a second user near the car with a receiver / transmitter who then replicates the fobs short distance signal via the booster, open the door, start the engine, and drive the car away.

[FabiaGonzales]

5 minutes ago, Gmac983 said:

Hasn't scanning of keys been around since remote central locking came out?

 

Scanning/Duplicating keys is harder than simply amplifying the signal to make the car think the key is next to it. It's amazing how easy it is to do. I'll get a link to a good video explaining it. It also explains a product that can prevent it happening too.

 

 

Edited 27 September, 2019 by FabiaGonzales

[Gmac983]

S'pose it beats lobbing a half brick through the window or bending the door frome out and hammering a screw driver in to the ignition barrel. 

[Confused_Cheese]

I'm happy I have keyless start/stop without keyless entry tbh. Seems the best of both for me, no keys dangling hitting my knee yet more secure than keyless entry. I'll be honest I quite like that it doesn't cut off, lets me quickly nip somewhere if I have a passenger and take my keys for the house or to use a store card without switching the engine off for all of 30 seconds. You can probably guess i'm not a fan of start/stop... I press the button to turn it off almost instantly after starting it 😱

[FabiaGonzales]

1 hour ago, Confused_Cheese said:

You can probably guess i'm not a fan of start/stop...

Disconnect the little connector from the -ve battery terminal, turns off the stop/start and also the regen so your battery will probably last longer too. That being said my car is 4+ years old with ~58k miles and the battery is still testing to be almost as good as the ratings on the label! Looks like i got a good battery!

[vc-10]

My car beeps like crazy if you open the driver's door with the ignition on. I'm sure my Fabia did too (it was an SE model, with a normal key). 

[FabiaGonzales]

9 minutes ago, vc-10 said:

My car beeps like crazy if you open the driver's door with the ignition on. I'm sure my Fabia did too (it was an SE model, with a normal key). 

Mine also, also when sometimes it decides to not turn the lights off by itself (i have auto headlights) it complains too.