4 hours ago, abaxas said:

It is a bad example. There are vastly more none tesla chargers than super chargers.

The bigger issue is inter compatibility. As in anyone with cash or card can fill up their fossil fuel car. Electric cars require either vendor lock in (tesla) or a myriad of other apps.

We need standardization if electric cars are going to become anything other than a middle class novelty.

 

Although there are vastly more chargers. You can't rely on them except for the very few charging hubs. 

 

I'm speaking from experience: We don't need single chargers dotted all over the place, this is not the use-case for rapid chargers. We need rapid charging hubs on trunk roads. Exactly like how Tesla have built their chargers. 

 

Zapmap stats show we have 2922 rapid chargers at 2003 locations (their cound includes Tesla network). That's average of 1.45 charger per location. Each location is totally not dependable, must have Plan B and Plan C. 

https://www.zap-map.com/statistics/#charger-type

Tesla says they have 1,804 Supercharger Stations with 15,911 Superchargers. It's an average of 8.8 chargers per location, making each charging location dependable. 

https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/supercharger

 

 

 

 

Put it another way, would you rely upon a single stall petrol station that is known to have a broken pump (Ecotricity)?  

Ermmm, did you not read the stats on zap map?

Total Rapid devices: 2922

Of which less than 500 are superchargers. There are more superchargers per location but equally less than 20% of locations have superchargers.

 

http://carmagazine.co.uk/electric/electric-charging-stations-uk-find-nearest-ev-charging-point-best-journey-planner-for-electric-cars

 

 

 

 

September 2018.

Edited 20 January, 20206 yr by Roottootemblowinootsoot

44 minutes ago, abaxas said:

Ermmm, did you not read the stats on zap map?

Total Rapid devices: 2922

Of which less than 500 are superchargers. There are more superchargers per location but equally less than 20% of locations have superchargers.

 

That's the point. Sprinkle rapid chargers all over the place does not make it a good, dependable network. 

 

My most recent personal experience is: 

1. Drive up to a double charger, at Chargemaster HQ, near J10 M1. One in use, someone else was just plugging in. 

2. Drive to my plan B, J9 M1, single charger, someone else just plugged in. 

3. Drive to my plan C, a few miles up the road to another single charger. Charger broken. 

4. Drive back to J9 M1 and wait 20min. No more range to go to the next one, the service after J5. 

I only needed 20min to charge, but ended up spending an hour to be on my way. Why? because chargers are not clustered together. If at J9 there were 4 chargers, the probability having to wait for whole of someone's charging session is greatly reduced. 

 

We need rapid charging hubs, not chargers.  Hubs install in similar fashion to Tesla superchargers. 

10 minutes ago, wyx087 said:

We need rapid charging hubs, not chargers.

Agree 100%

 

Petrol/diesel pumps don't come in singles, even the smallest of garage (with some exceptions in the most remote areas) have 4 or 6 pumps - and filling at them takes 5 minutes not the 20 minutes or more to charge an EV, so once we all drive EVs charger hubs will need to have 16 or more chargers to provide the same level of service.

Charging 'hubs' are expensive as they require massive infrastructure investment unless you want people to queue.

Remembering that at 50kw charging that is the same as 2.5 housing using the 'maximum' they can pull from the grid or about the 'average' of 100 houses.

You simply can't just put the chargers where you want there has to be capacity in the system for them unless you want a massive expense.

Nothing will most people away from electric cars faster than not being able to charge them.


 

On the 273 mile A9 electric highway Perth & Inverness are supposed to get Charging Hubs for those travelling the A9 between there.  That is 112 miles or so off the A9.

Perth is supposed to be having new housing development EV charging ready.

Also a Low Emissions Transport Hub for goods deliveries. 

Pity that the HGV's freight containers going on the train into Scotland & between Perth and Inverness never continued as Safeway were doing it 20 years ago.

http://scottishpolicynow.co.uk/article/rail-freight-the-economy-the-environment-and-the-highlands

 

..............................

 

There has to be the capacity in the system for storage from the power generation that is getting turned off because the National Grid does not require it.

 

There are 8 Tesla Supercharger bays at a hotel on the south edge of Dundee just a few hundred yards off the A90, so the route from Edinburgh to Aberdeen.

 

Dundee a city of high un-employment and poverty and the Drug Death Capital of Europe.

The Council and Councillors know a thing or 2 about getting EU money and Grant money and how to get the air miles in on trips abroad researching things.

 

 

 

Edited 20 January, 20206 yr by Roottootemblowinootsoot

I don't think you understand the problem.

For widespread EV adoption you won't need 8 chargers at a motorway/a road service station you'll need 100s. This is not about averages, it needs to be spec'ed for peak. Unless of course you wish to queue.

If we assume a 30 min stay and 100% utilization of chargers. That's a max of 16 cars 'charged' per hour peak. Which leads to a worse case for the person who arrives at the wrong time a 1 hour charge (30 waiting, 30 charging).  Some of the large service stations have a footfall in 10s of thousands a day.

Quick fag packet calc.

Largest footfall I could fine online 140,000 in a weekend.
Divide by 2.5 (occupancy) = 56000
Total hours in a weekend 3x24 = 72
So at best if every car wanted to charge for 30 minutes = 388 chargers.
Obviously the footfall is greater during the day and not everyone will need to charge but also some people will take longer than 30 mins.

Staggering numbers by any way of looking at it.

Nothing will **** of an EV driver faster than knowing they have to wait an hour before continuing their journey.





 

Was chatting to a neighbour on this very subject today and doing some mental arithmetics.

 

We have a lot less petrols stations than when I was young, basically one private to 2 or 3 superstore stations, they have on average 10 pumps and there is always a queue, if each fill up takes 5 minutes thats 120 refuels per hour but the vehicles will have say 400 miles of autonomy before returning, if these were electric vehicles even at a 30 minute charge (which I doubt is enough) you would need 6 times as many filling stations as at present, factor in that on a 30 minute charge they would be back again within 100 miles (perhaps an EV owner can give me a realistic figure for charge time vs autonomy) and you are up to 24 times as many filling stations.

 

There just is not the space in the crowded south of England, who is going to finance and build a filling station in an urban area when they could build a block of flats worth several million wak away with the money and have no ongoing running costs, staff etc etc?

 

Ok those who have off road parking beside their houses will charge at home but flat dwellers or anyone who parks on the street will have to recharge at a filling station just like all drivers of fossil fuelled vehicles.

I understand the problem.

If England does nothing then let that be England's problem , but sadly the cost of high carbon emissions will be born by the other 3 countries.

 

Fag packet calculations for Scotland are under 6 million of a population, lots of those being children so not driving, lots not having cars, and never going to be 50 % of Passenger cars on the roads in the next decade will be EV's, or even 50% of light Commercials.

Then there are those travelling into Scotland, but also those travelling out of it.

 

PS.

@abaxas You have over a decade or even 2 until the planned end of the sale of Petrol's and Diesels starts.

 

 Norway is managing somehow with the increase of EV's on the roads and parked, but then they sell Electric to the UK and to Continental Europe.

 

For the UK where there are parking places for accommodation, flats, houses, complexes then charging points need to go there, currently petrol and diesels are parking there now. 

Then the Supermarkets, Malls, Health Centres, Hospitals, Community Centres need the charging places. and workplace parking where cars are parking now. Multistory car parks.

There might come time not be Car Supermarkets and Dealerships with cars lined up for sale, just EV's charging.

Edited 20 January, 20206 yr by Roottootemblowinootsoot

The UK has over 10x as many people living here as Norway.

Forget the UK.   

Norway and Scotland have about the same population. Northern Ireland & Wales, less.

England might well  in the future be on it's lonesome. 

 If you can not produce your own energy and pay your own way that is a problem.  Others need to pay for the overcrowded roads and high emissions.

 

There is this issue which will be the elephant in the room now and a whole herd eventually.

http://thedriven.io/2020/01/20/norway-horrified-as-new-rates-make-ev-charging-prices-higher-than-petrol

 

 

 

 

Edited 20 January, 20206 yr by Roottootemblowinootsoot

Japan to the rescue 

38 minutes ago, Roottootemblowinootsoot said:

Forget the UK.   

Norway and Scotland have about the same population. Northern Ireland & Wales, less.

England might well  in the future be on it's lonesome. 

 If you can not produce your own energy and pay your own way that is a problem.  Others need to pay for the overcrowded roads and high emissions.

 

There is this issue which will be the elephant in the room now and a whole herd eventually.

http://thedriven.io/2020/01/20/norway-horrified-as-new-rates-make-ev-charging-prices-higher-than-petrol

 

 

 

 

Some has to pay for the infrastructure.  In this case, it appears it's EV owners. Which is the correct way to do it.

@abaxas

Very true. 

But it looks like there is money to be made and that business is investing and that will be hedge funds and pension funds and tax payers.

  It looks like someone has to pay for the rail services in England and that appears to be everyone regardless of if they ever get on a train, same with air travel and pollution regardless of if they fly.

 

Whereabouts are you in the UK?

Edited 20 January, 20206 yr by Roottootemblowinootsoot

Bit of a difference between a train and a luxury item (EV).

 

@abaxas   Maybe only in your mind. What car do you drive?

Those with luxury EV's are not getting grants to purchase them, as  they are over that RRP like Premium Cars and higher VED charges, 

and the TESLA owners or leases are not getting a big foot up. 

Edited 20 January, 20206 yr by Roottootemblowinootsoot

Every EV gets a 'grant' of £3,500.

Even the £100k ones.

 

Yes and that is a lot of cash money that is going to the UK Treasury when buying or leasing cars of that price for Private use.

 

The Importers and Dealerships are the ones that have 'over inflated priced vehicles from the manufacturers' and still the likes of the car i am getting which is a Corsa is £30,000 plus OTR after the grant.

Not a luxury car, but not the most basic, but still a Corsa, but keeping all down the line in nice lifestyles like all new cars sold. 

If the Grants reduce so will prices or many will not shift the cars they are building and importing.

 

Edited 20 January, 20206 yr by Roottootemblowinootsoot

13 hours ago, abaxas said:

I don't think you understand the problem.

For widespread EV adoption you won't need 8 chargers at a motorway/a road service station you'll need 100s. This is not about averages, it needs to be spec'ed for peak. Unless of course you wish to queue.

If we assume a 30 min stay and 100% utilization of chargers. That's a max of 16 cars 'charged' per hour peak. Which leads to a worse case for the person who arrives at the wrong time a 1 hour charge (30 waiting, 30 charging).  Some of the large service stations have a footfall in 10s of thousands a day.

Staggering numbers by any way of looking at it.

 

13 hours ago, J.R. said:

Was chatting to a neighbour on this very subject today and doing some mental arithmetics.

 

We have a lot less petrols stations than when I was young, basically one private to 2 or 3 superstore stations, they have on average 10 pumps and there is always a queue, if each fill up takes 5 minutes thats 120 refuels per hour but the vehicles will have say 400 miles of autonomy before returning, if these were electric vehicles even at a 30 minute charge (which I doubt is enough) you would need 6 times as many filling stations as at present, factor in that on a 30 minute charge they would be back again within 100 miles (perhaps an EV owner can give me a realistic figure for charge time vs autonomy) and you are up to 24 times as many filling stations.

 

There just is not the space in the crowded south of England, who is going to finance and build a filling station in an urban area when they could build a block of flats worth several million wak away with the money and have no ongoing running costs, staff etc etc?

 

Ok those who have off road parking beside their houses will charge at home but flat dwellers or anyone who parks on the street will have to recharge at a filling station just like all drivers of fossil fuelled vehicles.

The bit in bold is key. I can use my short range EV without using any public infrastructure for 100% of the time. Because I simply charge at home. Never need to divert to a fuel station or wait for the dino juice pump, never need to wonder when I need to fuel up again, the car is charged and ready to go every morning. Zero queuing, private reserved space, 100% reliability (thanks to fallback options), gives me 2p per mile running cost.  Zero waiting, more convenient than ICE car. 

 

As I said, we need charging hubs on trunk roads. In cities and other areas, especially large car parks like a foodball stadium, we only need relatively cheap 7kW AC charging posts. They are called destination charging, you arrive at destination and plug in, they function like parking spaces. You leave when you are ready to leave, but with a full battery. Zero waiting, more convenient than ICE car. 

 

Indeed, that only leaves the flat dwellers. There are many other options than to rely on rapid chargers for daily use: workplace charging, supermarket charging, gym charging.... anywhere they may stay for long periods of time. Simply plug in to destination chargers. 

 

15 hours ago, abaxas said:

Charging 'hubs' are expensive as they require massive infrastructure investment unless you want people to queue.

Remembering that at 50kw charging that is the same as 2.5 housing using the 'maximum' they can pull from the grid or about the 'average' of 100 houses.

You simply can't just put the chargers where you want there has to be capacity in the system for them unless you want a massive expense.

On-site battery are part of the solution. It can do load balancing for the grid during off-peak charging periods. Reduce load on the grid when the charging station is full. Reduce the need to run expensive lines to the charging station. 

 

Tesla South Mimms 12 stall supercharger has its own battery supply. When there was a brief power cut there, Tesla chargers were still operating. 

https://electrek.co/2017/10/30/tesla-supercharger-stays-online-in-power-outage-powerpack-system/

 

12 hours ago, abaxas said:

Every EV gets a 'grant' of £3,500.

Even the £100k ones.

Over £40k, you'd need to pay £1600 in tax. Effectively cutting the grant down to below £2000. 

It will never work

 

If my home cannot accept a charger (no drive and no possibility of a drive) how am I EVER going to charge my electric car?

5 minutes ago, BigJase88 said:

It will never work

 

If my home cannot accept a charger (no drive and no possibility of a drive) how am I EVER going to charge my electric car?

Basically people without drives or garages are the new 'bus ****ers'.
 

 

It is working fine. I am at Edinburgh Airport park and ride paying nothing to sit here getting free electric at a 50kw charger.  Never bought fuel to get here, I will charge free later in about 180 miles, priced saved in fuel in 3 days will cover weekly cost of the car and pay a night B&B.   Its pretty easy really.  £100 fuel a week not bought covers a car lease and money left over. 

£100 fuel per week is over 30,000 a year at 30mpg.

It may cover the costs relative to your " Mitsubishi Shogun Warrior SWB 3.2Di-D Auto van " but almost any smallish car would do the same. Electric or not.

We'd need to do a more accurate cost analysis to see if you were actually gaining any value from the electric car or were simply throwing money away relative to fossil fuel options.  If you look at many electric cars the cost analysis is often that the diesel versions with ~100,000 miles of free diesel and maintainance cost about the same as the electric versions.

IE currently there is very little cost advantage to electric cars.

As a child would say "are we there yet?"
Answer : no

56 minutes ago, abaxas said:

Basically people without drives or garages are the new 'bus ****ers'.
 

 

Not really going to be viable though is it.

 

i do not believe electric is the way forward. It is not clean energy. Where does it come from? A big stinking nuclear power station.

 

bonkers