2016 Citigo cam belt replacement

[Snaefell]

On 27/12/2019 at 16:30, greenstripe said:

Skoda will most likely quote you nearer £500 - apparently it's a difficult and time consuming job (more so than most cars).

 

 

It's not a difficult or time consuming job. 

 

There's no injector or water pump to consider. 

 

It's just a crankshaft driving two camshafts via an idler and adjuster pulley.

[Snaefell]

On 28/12/2019 at 10:47, Ju1ian1001 said:

Go on take the chance, the cambelt is a rubber/fibre construction so the rubber will and does harden over time (as do tyres) that is why they are given time/mile intervals, Skoda errs in the side of caution and gives a 5 year interval because of this reason if the milage is low, but if you want to risk it thats your choice (by the way i have 24 years as a mechanic/ mot tester to be able to says, oh and i would not trust a twenty year cambelt even if the had 8 miles on the clock it would be changed straight away.)

 

The cambelt isn't rubber/fibre construction.  It's polyamide and teflon. 

 

The cam drive gears are tri-oval to reduce wear.

 

The engine designer and manufacturer (Volkswagen) recommend belt inspection at 160k miles with no specific time limit regarding a change.

 

Skoda UK recommend a cambelt change at 5 years.

 

Choice is the owners.

 

Just as an afterthought, has anybody had a belt failure, and what were the circumstances of the loss?

 

 

 

 

[Ju1ian1001]

3 minutes ago, Snaefell said:

 

The cambelt isn't rubber/fibre construction.  It's polyamide and teflon. 

 

The cam drive gears are tri-oval to reduce wear.

 

The engine designer and manufacturer (Volkswagen) recommend belt inspection at 160k miles with no specific time limit regarding a change.

 

Skoda UK recommend a cambelt change at 5 years.

 

Choice is the owners.

 

Just as an afterthought, has anybody had a belt failure, and what were the circumstances of the loss?

 

 

 

 

Polyamide is a type of synthetic rubber and teflon is a type of plastic fibre thats used for all manor of things including non slip coatings, so was simplyfying it for people, tri-oval cam pulleys have been used for years and do indeed increase longevity of the belt however they still wear and break down over time. For people who don't know tri-oval is the shape of the teeth on the belt and pulleys.

 

I have seen the results of a premature belt failure on these engines and it destroys (bends)  the valves as the pistons hit them, the head can be rebuilt but it's often cheaper to find a good second hand head have it skimmed & pressure tested and refitted to the block, the pistons do suffer a bit of damage but nothing that will cause a problem when the engine is running.

 

I'd change the cambelt regardless at 5 years, saves a lot of time and huge expense at the end of the day, i'm in the lucky position mine was done at time of purchase on my octavia (1.4 tsi, has the same miles/time interval) so 5 years of not worrying about it, but when the time does come up i can change it myself as i will have the locking pin kit by then.

[Snaefell]

20 minutes ago, Ju1ian1001 said:

 

 

>Polyamide is a type of synthetic rubber and teflon is a type of plastic fibre thats used for all manor of things including non slip coatings, so was simplyfying it for people,

 

I was trying to simplyfy the fact that belt material has moved on from the Mk4 Cortina et al.  Latest belts are a 'lifetime' of service.  I doubt many VW engines in the Citigo/Mii/Up etc. will ever exceed the belt service inspection interval.

 

>For people who don't know tri-oval is the shape of the teeth on the belt and pulleys.

 

Tri-oval indicates the shape of the gear, not the tooth form on the camgear or belt. 

 

Its design is such that the belt tension is released when its not needed i.e. if it's not at the peak of the camlobe.

 

Therefore with the superior belt material and the redesigned cam gears, the belt service inspection interval has been designated by the manufacturer as 160k mile without a specified time limit.

 

I'm not sure how many of these engines are currently 'in service', but it must be in the millions, has anybody else ever experienced a failure?

Edited 4 January, 2020 by Snaefell

[Ju1ian1001]

1 minute ago, Snaefell said:

 

>Polyamide is a type of synthetic rubber and teflon is a type of plastic fibre thats used for all manor of things including non slip coatings, so was simplyfying it for people,

 

I was trying to simplyfy the fact that belt material has moved on from the Mk4 Cortina et al.  Latest belts are a 'lifetime' of service.  I doubt many VW engines in the Citigo/Mii/Up etc. will ever exceed the belt service inspection interval.

 

>For people who don't know tri-oval is the shape of the teeth on the belt and pulleys.

 

Tri-oval indicates the shape of the gear, not the tooth form on the camgear or belt. 

 

Its design is such that the belt tension is released when its not needed i.e. if it's not at the peak of the camlobe.

 

Therefore with the superior belt material and the redesigned cam gears, the belt service inspection interval has been designated by the manufacturer as 160k mile without a specified time limit.

 

I'm not sure how many of these engines are currently 'in service', but it must be in the millions, has anybody else ever experienced a failure?

Believe me i know cambelt tech has moved on from the belt fitted pinto engine found in mk4/5 cortinas, have been a mechanic/mot tester for 24 years, the thing is i would still change a belt earlier then recommendation and don't trust lifetime belts, i still think belts should be inspected if there's an oil leak or water leak near or by the cambelt or any signs of damage to covers and such.

 

I was taught in college many many moons ago, if in doubt inspect, if suspect replace and never believe things to be lifetime.

 

Don't even trust the "belt in oil" on the 3 cylinder ford ecoboost engine. 

[PETER COSGROVE]

1 hour ago, Ju1ian1001 said:

Believe me i know cambelt tech has moved on from the belt fitted pinto engine found in mk4/5 cortinas, have been a mechanic/mot tester for 24 years, the thing is i would still change a belt earlier then recommendation and don't trust lifetime belts, i still think belts should be inspected if there's an oil leak or water leak near or by the cambelt or any signs of damage to covers and such.

 

I was taught in college many many moons ago, if in doubt inspect, if suspect replace and never believe things to be lifetime.

 

Don't even trust the "belt in oil" on the 3 cylinder ford ecoboost engine. 

 

[PETER COSGROVE]

As you are someone who has seen these engines suffer cam belt failure, can you recall the age/mileage of the vehicles concerned?

 

My interest is that I have asked before regarding these Citigo/Up/Mi engines, and nobody has replied .

 

Not sure if your car has a traditional cam belt set up or not.

[KenONeill]

Well. I read "$thing for life" as referring to the life of the component, not as a synonym for "indefinitely".

[greenstripe]

3 hours ago, Snaefell said:

 

It's not a difficult or time consuming job. 

 

There's no injector or water pump to consider. 

 

It's just a crankshaft driving two camshafts via an idler and adjuster pulley.

 

I've seen the diagrams and watched the video below. I'm well aware that the water pump is on the other end of the engine from the cambelt. I've obviously fallen foul to a an industry wide conspiracy regarding the cost of changing the belt on this engine compared to other cars in the VW group.

 

My question to you is how long does it take you to change the cambelt on one of these engines and how much do you charge for the work?

 

 

Edited 4 January, 2020 by greenstripe

[Ju1ian1001]

1 hour ago, PETER COSGROVE said:

As you are someone who has seen these engines suffer cam belt failure, can you recall the age/mileage of the vehicles concerned?

 

My interest is that I have asked before regarding these Citigo/Up/Mi engines, and nobody has replied .

 

Not sure if your car has a traditional cam belt set up or not.

Can't remember the age or milage as we had did the inspection about 6-7 months ago, was a polo not a citygo but they have same 3 cylinder engine, found the belt had snapped, we put a belt on and did a compression check (found none) so pulled the head and found all valves bent, centre manager quoted for the repair work but customer declined at collected the car, never did get to the cause of why the belt failed.

 

Think the quote was about the £1300 mark, includes all parts, labour and VAT, Our labour rate is £90 an hour, dealer's are more then this. 

Edited 4 January, 2020 by Ju1ian1001

[PETER COSGROVE]

Thank Julian, very interesting, especially the repair price quote. I’m about 18 months away from the 5 year recommendation, so have enough time to prepare for the cost. My local garage is trustworthy, so will get a price from them maybe.

[Emil]

13 hours ago, Ju1ian1001 said:

Can't remember the age or milage as we had did the inspection about 6-7 months ago, was a polo not a citygo but they have same 3 cylinder engine,... 

Somehow I find it hard to believe it was same engine. Maybe because some time ago you didn't know what "tri-oval" means. 

[Snaefell]

16 hours ago, Ju1ian1001 said:

the thing is i would still change a belt earlier then recommendation and don't trust lifetime belts, i still think belts should be inspected if there's an oil leak or water leak near or by the cambelt or any signs of damage to covers and such.

 

if in doubt inspect, if suspect replace and never believe things to be lifetime.

 

Don't even trust the "belt in oil" on the 3 cylinder ford ecoboost engine. 

 

>have been a mechanic/mot tester for 24 years,

 

I was awarded my City & Guilds Full Technological Certificate in Motor Vehicle Engineering in 1984 and still work in the trade.

 

>I was taught in college many many moons ago,

 

And research and development has moved on since such times - I should know I worked for Shell Research at their, now defunct, Thornton Research Centre from 1992-99.  When I was there they made F1 fuel for McClaren (Senna/Berger) and latterly Ferrari (Schumacher/Irvine).  I digress, apologies.   The life expectancy of a modern engine is 100k+ miles.  An old 'A' series Mini engine required 30 tappet and points adjustment in that time.  My 2008 Toyota Agyo received just 10 oil and filter changes in comparison with no engine work whatsoever other than 1 air filter at 60K..

 

If a 'rubber' cambelt needs changing at 5 years, what about the tyres (including the spare)?  Would a sub 20k mile car at 5 years need all 5 tyres to be replaced?  Then the constant velocity 'boots', wheel cylinder/caliper dust covers, headlamp bulb diaphragms...what service schedules are recommended for these rubber items.

 

In reality, the cambelt failure you experienced needs further investigation.  It could have been water pump seizure due to a lack of lube in the coolant, valve seizure due to a lack of lube, foreign object damage due to poor filtration etc.  and not as a result of belt failure per se.

 

I'm asking if anyone has experienced a cambelt failure due to belt/adjuster failure.

 

My 2016 Citigo has done 52k miles and at current mileage rates isn't due for replacement prior to expectant sale in 2024.  At which point I'll be looking at the Citigo electric.

 

Regards...Snaefell, Marown, IoM.

[Ootohere]

@Ju1ian1001

Citigo only come with the MPI engine, VW Up! can have the MPI or a TSI.  Was the Polo one with a MPI engine?

 

@Snaefell

I take it you were not there in 1986 when Formula Shell was being formulated before being involved in the early demise of various engines..

There must have been talk about it at Thornton Research Centre in the 1990's...

We never knew if Royal Dutch Shell chemists / researchers were sniffinf too much fuel or smoking something.

 

 

http://royaldutchshellgroup.com/2015/06/04/shell-v-power-nitro-ignites-memories-of-past-shell-wonder-fuel-debacles

 

 

PS

There are a common thing with tyres, rubber boots, condoms and Cam / fan belts.  Or there used to be when they were rubber from trees

& not some synthetic rubber / composite with ingredients derived from petrochemical plants..

But then there is with Door Seals and Hatch Seals & Sunroof seals and VW Group source some totally crap ones.

 

As to Belts, Chains and Tensioners and also water pumps.

Decades on since the rear engine air cooled models VW Group still procure and fit crap as long as they get them cheap.

 

It is just Heavy Goods Vehicles and Buses tyres they are consulting on banning over 10 years old.

older-tyres-consultation-document.pdf

 

 

Edited 5 January, 2020 by Roottootemblowinootsoot

[Emil]

Was it CHY-engine I would ask. 

 

MPI means only multi point injection. Skoda have had mpi engines since 90's. 😉

[KenONeill]

44 minutes ago, Snaefell said:

Would a sub 20k mile car at 5 years need all 5 tyres to be replaced?

Maybe. Tyre replacement is dependent more on wear than anything else, which in turn is dependent on matters of driving style, engine power, road surface, local traffic conditions...

 

So which of those issues are you suggesting that a cam belt does not suffer from?

[xman]

Tri oval sprokets...

 

In this context it means the camshaft drive sprockets have an eccentric radius at 120 deg intervals. This is to counter the increased load as a camlobe opens a valve and reduce the variation of belt tension on the driven side over a complete rotation of the camshaft (2 turns on the crank).

Increases cambelt life and is claimed by VAG and Continental who iirc developed these to be "maintenance free" and "lifetime" cambelt drives. There is a similar drive arrangement used on 1.4/1.5tsi engines but this time the radius eccentricity is at 90 deg intervals and is done at the crankshaft end instead of the camshaft ends.

 

SSP-511_The_New_EA211_Petrol_Engine_Family.pdf

SSP-539_1_0-l_3-cylinder_TSI_Engine.pdf

Edited 5 January, 2020 by xman

[Snaefell]

4 hours ago, Roottootemblowinootsoot said:

 

 

@Snaefell

I take it you were not there in 1986 when Formula Shell was being formulated before being involved in the early demise of various engines..

There must have been talk about it at Thornton Research Centre in the 1990's...

 

Due to the problems experienced with the unleaded fuels of the late 80's, potassium was added to formulation to improve combustion.  This occurred a while before my time.  In fact I, and many others, were recruited into one of the 6 newly formed Combustion and Fuels Departments (approx. 200 out of a total 1100 staff on-site) to help solve the difficulty.

 

The main symptoms were experienced by the 'V's' i.e. Vauxhall, Volkswagen and Volvo.  A number of engines would deposit the potassium on the valve stem which would eventually form a laquer and cause valve seizure.  This was experienced with a cold engine and would cause belt failure via valve interference.  New formulations were tested by large fleets e.g. motorway police vehicles who covered large distances in a short space of time.  And it was the police Vauxhall vehicles which first flagged up the problems.

 

A number of engines were selected for testing new fuels (it was only a gasoline fuel and not a lubricate problem) and the dirtiest i.e. one that 'sooted up' quickest, was the 1040cc gasoline Polo motor.  Incidentally, Shell were the 1st Formula1 fuel supplier to specify unleaded fuel before it was mandatory.

 

I subsequently moved onto the Research & Development (R&D) team in the Faculty of Engineering at the University of Liverpool (1999-2005).

 

All this aside, R&D moves on apace, so I'm convinced that if the manufacturer has tested the product and is happy to warranty their product, why service outside of their recommendations without good reason?

 

However, empirical data being paramount, has anyone ever experienced a belt failure in any of the x million engines in service,  which has been attributed to a cause that could have been prevented by a periodic change of belt/adjusters?

 

[Ootohere]

Also M & M's.   Metro and Maestro's. 

& Fords.  Fife Constabulary cars.

 

The beauty of small capacity petrol engines that can not pull the soggy skin off a rice pudding is little Cam Belt failure.

 

Sad that can not be said of the same or similar capacity and power Timing Chain engines from 2009-2012

Vorsprung Durch Technik.

Edited 5 January, 2020 by Roottootemblowinootsoot

[Ju1ian1001]

4 hours ago, Roottootemblowinootsoot said:

Citigo only come with the MPI engine, VW Up! can have the MPI or a TSI.  Was the Polo one with a MPI engine?

MPI, MPI engine the polo was phased out quite late, the Polo was very basic on spec as well. All polo's are now TSi.

[KenONeill]

1 minute ago, Roottootemblowinootsoot said:

Also M & M's.   Metro and Maestro's. 

& Fords.  Fife Constabulary cars.

Indeed; tried "Shell V Power" in Dad's Maestro (A+ series) back in the day, got pinking almost instantly and cleared it with with 3/4 tank of something else; No other mods or even settings adjustments made.

[Ootohere]

MPI's were stopped in Skoda Fabia in 2019 then they started using them again.   All Fabia do not have TSI's.

 

@KenONeill

It was Formula Shell not V-Power or now the V-Power Nitro+

 

Maybe @Snaefell  Can comment on the rather cheeky Shell V-Power Video / Advert.

Running the F1 car on 'standard Shell V-Power from a normal Shell Service Station'. they did not say 98 or 99 ron.

The UK Shell V-Power was 98 ron minimum at that time.

No mention of 102 ron Shell V-Power at some stations near tracks and factories in Italy.

 

 

Edited 5 January, 2020 by Roottootemblowinootsoot

[Ju1ian1001]

5 hours ago, Emil said:

Somehow I find it hard to believe it was same engine. Maybe because some time ago you didn't know what "tri-oval" means. 

Very common engine across the VAG and as it was me who took the belt off and refitted the belt i think i would know.

[Ju1ian1001]

5 minutes ago, Roottootemblowinootsoot said:

MPI's were stopped in Skoda Fabia in 2019 then they started using them again.   All Fabia do not have TSI's.

1.0 TSi in either 90ish bhp form or 115bhp in the current mark 3 plus the 1.6tdi, think there might a bigger petrol used but not sure as not seen many mark 3 at work yet, as are/were not all polos TSi, can't remember exact engines in used in earlier polos

Edited 5 January, 2020 by Ju1ian1001

[KenONeill]

@Emil @Ju1ian1001 @Snaefell - Well, FWIW the only hit I got in a search for "tri-oval" was for the race track configuration. Nothing about driven (or driving for that matter) pulleys in an engine design.