TDI VRS manual vs DSG

[stevenbess]

Hi, 

 

Thought I would post up comparisons. 

 

Previous car was a MY15 VRS TDI manual. Owned that for 5 years and done 80k miles. The Mrs now has this car. 2 problems in that time. Turbo boost sensor caused limp mode twice (rectified after turn off) and was changed at next service . Water pump caused overheating and they changed under warranty (had a 5 year).

Had a DTUK box on from 600 miles and adjusted consumption to get accurate brim to brim alignment with computer average. My normal run is Bristol to Heathrow and often every week. Average for this was between 55 to 60 depending on time available. @ 70 then 62 to 63 mpg achievable. Car was always in sport mode and throttle response is/was excellent and very sharp. apart from numb steering was very pleased with the car.

End of September last year, took delivery of a TDI VRS DSG 4x4- extras include DCC. after 9000 miles and fitting DTUK box and DSG upgrade i'm still not overly impressed. Throttle response by comparison is "slow" and it just seems dim witted at lower speeds with lots of clutch slip if i try and go along at 15 mph. It's easy to drive and relaxed and to switch into comfort on the motorway works well as I had hoped.

One massive difference though is the consumption. Same journey as described above and same speed i'm getting 45 MPG. Overall this car is  using 25% more fuel.

Grip is grood but system is not as good as my 20 year old Scoob. If turning right at a junction I can spin up inside front wheel in the Skoda where the Scoob would ultimately divert thrust to the rear if provoked. 

The steering on the new car is slightly worse than the old one and doesn't give any confidence as there is little/no feeling to suggest limit of grip...I get lots of messages in the Scoob.

I would have another but with some more attention to small details it could be a good drivers car.

[ChoonDoode]

As you put it, 'dim witted', is the reason I wouldn't have a DSG gearbox. I've driven a few VAG cars with DSG boxes and I've found them always to be hesitant to go to the gear you'd expect them to be in. Always a sort of "I'm meant to be doing something...........I wonder what this is?" scenario.

 

The main thing I have always wanted them to have is a fully manual mode, similar to the BMW ZF8 gearbox, which stays in the gear I want it to stay in until I wish to change it. 

 

Don't get me wrong, they're fun to go and have a blast with on the back roads. Hands glued to the steering wheel and if you're confident enough, left foot braking is easier to do. Which makes them brilliant to have on the track, as I found out driving in an M4.

[Ootohere]

Put the shifter into S when going along slow like @ 15 mph and just don't floor the throttle.

It will not be looking to change gear then and will have it's full wits about it.

(If in S is still dim witted leave in D because not all DSG's have the issue in the posts above.)

 

Left foot braking with a DSG really has to be done with never touch brake and accelerator as the brake is cutting drive / power.

 

Comparison with a petrol turbo Scooby is very much more than Apples and Pears, it is a Rally Breed car vs a under 200 bhp turbo diesel Family sized / Sales rep car.

Then the BMW, 'Ultimate Drivers Car (in their mind) vs a Family sized / Sales Rep car.

Edited 17 April, 2020 by Roottootemblowinootsoot

[silver1011]

DSG doesn't have to be dim-witted, Skoda simply programe it to operate that way.

 

The same DSG gearbox, but fitted to an Audi and with different coding can be night and day in terms of responsiveness. Make of that what you will, but some claim Skoda DSG boxes are deliberately coded this way to ensure Audi always has the advantage? It can be fixed though by applying the Audi coding to the Skoda, there are plenty of threads on here about how to do it.

 

In terms of fuel consumption, it possibly isn't a fair comparison. The 2015 manual vRS is pre-WLTP, assuming the September 2019 DSG vRS was brand new or nearly new then it will likely be WLTP-approved (more stringent emissions criteria which often comes as a tradeoff with fuel consumption and/or performance, and potentially even durability).

 

The 4x4 system (Haldex) shouldn't allow any wheel spin. If it is spinning a wheel then chances are the Haldex isn't working properly.

 

Are the tyres the same between both cars? Tyres (brand, tread depth, composition, profile and pressure) make as much of a contribution towards ride and grip than anything else, including expensive options such as DCC etc.

[stevenbess]

Previous car before manual Skoda was a BMW 320d manual and the throttle response in that was worse than the current Skoda...to pull away quickly, floor the throttle, wait 2 seconds then work the clutch..dreadful ! drivers car not..steering worse as well due to run flats.

 

Both cars bought new

 

the comparison to the Scoob was just there to highlight how bad the steering is and what is possible. I am running fairly aggressive goemetry on the scoob which does help but as it does 2 to 3k a year i can live with it. 

 

Spinning front tyre only occurs if turning hard right/left and pulling away and booting it.

[Ootohere]

There were differences for the front wheels, with ASR / TC, then TC & XDS, then T/C & XDS + and then VAQ electro-mechanical diffs lock systems for a reason.

It is an evolution, but then you have to buy the car with the improved systems.

(Those with the best system must remember that an oil change is required.)

 

ECO & Performance rolled into one really does not work as shown with the crap OEM tyres as the cars leave the factory with.

Edited 17 April, 2020 by Roottootemblowinootsoot

[Cymru Blackline]

I liked my 14 plate VRS TDI manual best, when driven in sports mode and used to average 50 mpg, bit more on motorways.

 

Changed to a 16 plate VRS TDI 4x4 and couldn't really get the DSG to drive how I wanted, tried a DTUK tuning box, but still didn't get it really how I wanted so took it off. After 2 years I bought DTUK pedal box and now the car is a joy to drive. I set the pedal box to mid setting + 1 and leave the DSG in normal and it just makes the throttle and DSG work how I want. I've only ever averaged 43-ish, but get high 40-s on a run on dual carriageways/motorways. If on lock pulling away from a junction hard, you can get it to tramp/spin, but otherwise generally o.k. OBD 11 did throw up a haldex fault, which garage found rear haldex pump had gone, but that was around 60k miles.

 

Can't comment on the DSG upgrade, but might be worth you speaking to DTUK about trying a pedal box.

 

[Kenai]

I think a key thing to remember with DSG is that it's not a traditional auto box and so you can't treat it like one, the same way you would drive a sequential manual differently to a normal manual for example.

 

It manages it's super quick smooth shifting by guessing your next gear and pre-selecting - to enable it to do this to it's best ability you have to learn (which you will, as you experiment with it and use it) how to communicate to it via the brake and throttle, what gear you're likely to want next. If your actions have made it pre-select a higher gear and you actually do something that wants a lower gear, it takes more like a second to shift, rather than milliseconds, as it has to select something different rather than just swap clutches.

 

A common one here is slowing to junctions - it will be thinking it won't bother going to 1st until you're essentially stopped, so will be in 2nd and have 3rd selected until a very low speed. If you then spot a gap, decide 'go go go' and plant your foot, it will interpret this as 'maximum accel. requested' (especially if you press far enough to hit the kickdown switch), decide to try and change the alternative gear to 1st instead of 3rd and the second it takes to do this and engage that clutch will feel an age - if you apply half throttle though, it'll interpret 'reasonable accel. requested', probably stay in 2nd and you'll be off on your way quickly and smoothly. This particular scenario really catches some people because they panic at the first instance of hesitation after they've planted the throttle and come off the pedal entirely, so the box is now seeing 'no accel. requested' and becomes completely confused at your contradictory requests for maximum acceleration and no acceleration. Once you understand though that sometimes 'less is more' with DSG and your control inputs, it operates a lot more predictably and smoothly.

 

Essentially, causing it to do anything that means it needs to reselect a gear, or change to a gear on the same shaft as you're already on, will feel slow and this is where DSG has it's weakness next to something like a ZF8 which can change from from any gear to any other with the same speed/responsiveness.

 

A few weeks into owning mine though and I had already decided I wouldn't be going back to a manual daily driver again - some sort of specialist 'weekend' sports car bought purely for driving pleasure maybe - but not an everyday car like the Octavia. I can't remember the last time mine did anything that felt 'dimwitted'.

[BigEjit]

^^^ This 100%
 

Most of the time it’s spot on. It’s just those pesky rolling hard launches between 1st and 2nd that require a bit more user input and planning to smooth out. 

 

As a first time DSG & Diesel user, it’s spot on for all day long distance drives on cruise and really good paddle shifting down twisty roads without risking your licence in the process. Yep, 4x4 does scrabble the inside front wheel a little on 90’ launches but it still goes and it’s not that frequent or necessary to induce. 

 

Best all rounder I have put my own money into having run high power petrol manual and 4x4 over the last 30 years. Also I’m a better driver because of it as I’m not putting myself on the wrong side of legal like I did all too frequently in tweaked up petrols.

[stevenbess]

16 hours ago, Cymru Blackline said:

I liked my 14 plate VRS TDI manual best, when driven in sports mode and used to average 50 mpg, bit more on motorways.

 

Changed to a 16 plate VRS TDI 4x4 and couldn't really get the DSG to drive how I wanted, tried a DTUK tuning box, but still didn't get it really how I wanted so took it off. After 2 years I bought DTUK pedal box and now the car is a joy to drive. I set the pedal box to mid setting + 1 and leave the DSG in normal and it just makes the throttle and DSG work how I want. I've only ever averaged 43-ish, but get high 40-s on a run on dual carriageways/motorways. If on lock pulling away from a junction hard, you can get it to tramp/spin, but otherwise generally o.k. OBD 11 did throw up a haldex fault, which garage found rear haldex pump had gone, but that was around 60k miles.

 

Can't comment on the DSG upgrade, but might be worth you speaking to DTUK about trying a pedal box.

 

Thanks for the tip and I will give them a call. 
 

steve

[Ecomatt]

I did a DSG box reset and the gearbox works loads better now. It changes quicker and smoother and also seems to be in the right gear at the right time now.

[logiclee]

On 17/04/2020 at 17:50, Kenai said:

 

 

Essentially, causing it to do anything that means it needs to reselect a gear, or change to a gear on the same shaft as you're already on, will feel slow and this is where DSG has it's weakness next to something like a ZF8 which can change from from any gear to any other with the same speed/responsiveness.

 

 

 

I've owned 9 VAG dual clutch boxes.

 

5x DQ200, 3x DQ250 and 1x DL501.

 

And I've owned 3x ZF8HP, two BMW and the other Jaguar.

 

There's no comparison, the ZF box is nearly as quick on upshifts as DSG when it want's to be but in all other situations like low speed maneuvering and down shifts it's just leagues ahead of the DSG boxes.  Unfortunately the ZF is for longitudinal engined cars only so that's a no for any current Skoda.

[stevenbess]

The other annoying aspect.

 

I live on a bit of a slope and park facing downhill. On a cold start, select reverse and it’s got to rev to about 2,000 to 2,500 to just get moving which also feels really weird as with the manual, any manoeuvre like that was done without use of the throttle and at tickover so I don’t get the need to slip the clutches so much.

 

steve

[varaderoguy]

Okay - I had EXACTLY the same issue on my 4x4 Scout.  It took LOTS of revs to get the car to move from COLD & the gearbox changing was completely useless....so much so that I almost gave the car back to the purchasing dealer.  On the VRS 4x4 and Scout 4x4 TDI's, you will have the DQ381 box 7 speed (MY18 onwards).  Somewhere (and I don't remember where) - here on Briskoda - was a report of low pressure issues inside the DSG gearbox - caused by lack of oil in the box itself....annoyingly, not enough to throw an error on the CANbus network, but enough to effect the way it handled. 

 

I had to take a gamble with my dealer and I shelled out £268 on a DSG gearbox oil change (this at 6500 miles).  All I report is that it COMPLETELY transformed the car from high-reving, non-gear changing beast - to Smooth gearbox changes and an absolute pleasure to drive - I now just blip the throttle from cold and I get good response).  I regularly get over 45mpg (even on cold days) and now I would not go back to a manual.

 

The good news is that if you report this via a formal complaint to Skoda UK, then they will most likely get your money refunded....I suspect that they are not filling up the DSG gearbox's with enough fluid from the off; those who notice...notice and do something about it; those who don't...don't.

 

 

 

 

[stevenbess]

Thanks for that. 

 

It's due a service at 10k so I will report it to the dealer.  and push the oil change.

 

The car changes ok. It must be the slope I drive up from the house and the right speed is about 17mph so its revving high for 2nd and wont change to 3rd until about 19mph..Its a side street so I don't want to go fast as kids are playing etc. it just seems wrong to be holding 2nd gear at 2,500 revs. It wont manually change to 3rd at that speed.

 

My last car was on variable servicing and that's what this one should be on but I took the offer of first 2 services for £139 or £149 (cant remember which) as it seemed a good deal and the sales guy had made a mistake (he forgot I was on Variable and still offered the fixed servicing deal) as I thought i wouldnt pay anything until 3 years old ! I'm doing about 17k to 18k per year.

 

Cheers

 

Steve

[shyVRS245]

That's interesting because I notice my DQ381 hangs onto 2nd gear while the engine is cold upto 2,000rpm when I drive uphill from my house and if someone was watching me they would wonder why I wasn't changing into 3rd gear. Same here changes into 3rd at about 19mph so I keeping the speed down to keep the revs down. Cures itself after about a minute though so not a big deal. Car has now done 8,881 miles.

[stevenbess]

If I get to use the car soon then it will be in for a service soon after and I'll report back on here any findings

 

Steve

[ChoonDoode]

  

On 19/04/2020 at 13:02, logiclee said:

 

There's no comparison, the ZF box is nearly as quick on upshifts as DSG when it want's to be but in all other situations like low speed maneuvering and down shifts it's just leagues ahead of the DSG boxes.  Unfortunately the ZF is for longitudinal engined cars only so that's a no for any current Skoda.

 

Another gearbox which I have found to be very slick (coming from a passenger) is the 9 speed in a lot of Mercs, certainly the E220d. 

 

13 minutes ago, shyVRS245 said:

That's interesting because I notice my DQ381 hangs onto 2nd gear while the engine is cold upto 2,000rpm when I drive uphill from my house and if someone was watching me they would wonder why I wasn't changing into 3rd gear. Same here changes into 3rd at about 19mph so I keeping the speed down to keep the revs down. Cures itself after about a minute though so not a big deal. Car has now done 8,881 miles.

 

Is that just the ecu's way of keeping the revs higher to keep the heat in the engine, like you say, whilst it's cold?

[shyVRS245]

3 minutes ago, tunedude said:

  

 

Another gearbox which I have found to be very slick (coming from a passenger) is the 9 speed in a lot of Mercs, certainly the E220d. 

 

 

Is that just the ecu's way of keeping the revs higher to keep the heat in the engine, like you say, whilst it's cold?

Think so because after half a mile it will happily change into 4th at 22mph and 5th at 29mph.

[logiclee]

10 minutes ago, tunedude said:

  

 

Another gearbox which I have found to be very slick (coming from a passenger) is the 9 speed in a lot of Mercs, certainly the E220d. 

 

 

Again a longitudinal box, a little slower witted than the ZF8HP but still very good. I think the packaging of a longitudinal box is better for engineers to make a good auto than a transverse box.

 

The Aisin 8 speed transverse box is quite good that BMW/Mini use. It's not as quick as a DSG or ZF8 but I'd still prefer it to a dual clutch box on a normal road car.  VAG do use this box in other markets.

[Ootohere]

http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/477576-new-australian-karoq-release-for-your-amusement

If VW Group can build and sell 1.4 TSI with an 8 speed auto in Australia then there is hope, that is if they can get the Emissions low in the countries with WLTP and RDE2 required.

As it is VW Group are going light hybrid with 1.0 tsi & 1.5 TSI DSG vehicles to get the results during testing even if it is all about kidology in the real world driving with cars loaded and near max gross weight and on the road.