Should History be airbrushed/side stepped because of the Black Lives Matter movement?

[cheezemonkhai]

Lee,

 

that symbol isn’t the white power symbol as such.

 

It is actually used to say ok... in the underwater, snorkelling and diving world it’s I am ok as thumbs up is I need to go to the surface.

 

Some morons have taken it as their play thing, but just because it’s used by a person does mean they’re automatically a racist.

 

In this case said people do seem to belong to the moron group, but I am sure a little bit of effort the police can find them.

 

Sadly this sort of person coming out of the woodwork, was what I was worried might happen. Push too hard or too fast or make another group or their beliefs feel attacked and they push back. In Germany you have AfD and I have no idea how well they are currently doing, but here is hoping we don’t get a similar mass of idiots here.

 

 

[@Lee]

17 minutes ago, cheezemonkhai said:

Lee,

 

that symbol isn’t the white power symbol as such.

 

It is actually used to say ok... in the underwater, snorkelling and diving world it’s I am ok as thumbs up is I need to go to the surface.

 

Some morons have taken it as their play thing, but just because it’s used by a person does mean they’re automatically a racist.

 

In this case said people do seem to belong to the moron group, but I am sure a little bit of effort the police can find them.

 

Sadly this sort of person coming out of the woodwork, was what I was worried might happen. Push too hard or too fast or make another group or their beliefs feel attacked and they push back. In Germany you have AfD and I have no idea how well they are currently doing, but here is hoping we don’t get a similar mass of idiots here.

 

 

This is a joke, right? Or are you seriously trying to make excuses for them? They're not underwater, are members of a racist organisation and they're not displaying a white poewer symbol?
Seriously, Mark
I think you should take some time to reflect on your post.

[Prof Yaffle]

I'm in the school of ducks on this one: if it walks like one, and quacks like one, there's a good chance that it is one.

Only two camps use the "white lives matter" comment: racists and idiots. The latter tend not to go out of their way to produce a large and expensive banner, march miles up a hill, and pose for publicity photos for a group that clearly states that it "stands up for the interests of the indigenous people of these islands". On balance, then, it's unlikely that he's mislaid his tank and fins; more likely, he's simply a white ethno-nationalist, probably the type that's a world expert on the implications of the Treaty of Lisbon and Article XXIV of GATT, thinks foreigners are fine so long as they stay in their own countries (exceptions made for people serving down the curry house), and likes to regularly misquote the Magna Carta.

[shyVRS245]

Lewis Hamilton who has a White mother and a Black father decided to wear a BLM T shirt at the Austrian GP last Sunday. He also decided to be different because the other 19 drivers on the grid agreed to wear END RACISM T shirts. 14 Drivers took a knee and 6 remained standing. The 6 that chose not to take a knee are not automatically racists but maybe painted that way by the media. The only time in my life that I decided to take a knee was when I proposed to my Black African born wife. This I believe is an old tradition.

[@Lee]

Professor of Public History at Manchester University.

 

[J.R.]

I have been a diver for over 30 years, albeit with a couple of breaks of 10 years including the last decade, I have always used the closed finger & thumb symbol as a "thumbs up" "I'm OK" signal and often in a group photo, other younger people who think they are cool do some weird 2 fingered sideways thing which I have never understood but then they probably dont understand mine either, nobody ever takes offence.

 

Are you telling me that since the idiots have been toppling statues if I do the OK sign some muppet is going to call me a racist?

 

Strewth, what is the world coming to 😞

 

If I am a long way away from people I also do the hands raised & joined above my head sign for OK (used for lifesaving to say I am not in distress) is that also now a racist thing?

 

I am still very fit and can bend down to do up my shoelaces, do I have to kneel from now on? Or is it that you mustn't kneel?

Edited 7 July, 2020 by J.R.

[cheezemonkhai]

On 07/07/2020 at 00:02, Lee01 said:

This is a joke, right? Or are you seriously trying to make excuses for them? They're not underwater, are members of a racist organisation and they're not displaying a white poewer symbol?
Seriously,
I think you should take some time to reflect on your post.

You’re being a right so and so.

 

I wasn’t defending them, I was taking issue with you calling it a white power symbol, which it isn’t. It has other uses!
 

If you start down the symbol is a racist one then we better stop everything that might offend anyone. I said just because the symbol is used, doesn’t automatically make it racist because of context.

 

It is very obvious from my post I think they are morons and should be picked up by the police. I directly state that!

 

So get that chip off you shoulder, because I don’t like you making defamatory posts, claiming I am defending racists when I am not!

Edited 8 July, 2020 by cheezemonkhai

[john999boy]

@Lee01 I think that you've misinterpreted @cheezemonkhai's post as I don't read it the same way that you appeared to do. 

 

[Ootohere]

^^^

Not sure if that thumb up means the same as 2 thumbs held up. Or is it the context in which it is done.

Like a 2 fingers in a V or just a middle finger held up or even a straight hand arm at an angle salute.

[shyVRS245]

2 hours ago, cheezemonkhai said:

You’re being a right so and so.

 

I wasn’t defending them, I was taking issue with you calling it a white power symbol, which it isn’t. It has other uses!
 

If you start down the symbol is a racist one then we better stop everything that might offend anyone. I said just because the symbol is used, doesn’t automatically make it racist because of context.

 

It is very obvious from my post I think they are morons and should be picked up by the police. I directly state that!

 

So get that chip off you shoulder, because I don’t like you making defamatory posts, claiming I am defending racists when I am not!

That happens too much on here and some like to use the R word to smear other members as I have recently been branded one and the post was reported by another member on my behalf.

[@Lee]

2 hours ago, cheezemonkhai said:

I wasn’t defending them, I was taking issue with you calling it a white power symbol, which it isn’t. It has other uses!
Yes, it has 'other uses' but given the context and the glaringly obvious fact they aint scuba diving, and on balance of probabilities and that this is an organisation which says they are  "A new community based campaigning group that stands up for the interests of the indigenous people of these islands." do you not for one moment think that this is the white power symbol being displayed?

 

So get that chip off you shoulder, because I don’t like you making defamatory posts, claiming I am defending racists when I am not!
I never said you were racist, I asked if you were joking/ making excuses and asked "They're not underwater, are members of a racist organisation and they're not displaying a white power symbol?
I don't have a chip on my shoulder but you seem to be doubling down for whatever reason. I remember another topic where I proved to you with links something you were adamant wasn't the case if you remember and what did I get in reply? "Oh, we'll have to agree to disagree". Not even an apology.
So, in this instance I guess we'll just have to "agree to disagree".

Edit: I notice a similar pattern of people reacting one way or another are the same people who disagree with me on other subjects. It's like a clan lol

Edited 8 July, 2020 by Lee01

[ColinD]

Hi, 

 

We’re aiming to be a different kind of community here - one where we expect all contributions to the forum to be amicable and respectful.

Unfortunately a number of recent posts fall short of this requirement.

Please keep this in mind for any further posts you may make on this forum.

You may also want to check out our guidelines for some background.

 

Thank you.

Edited 8 July, 2020 by ColinD

[Prof Yaffle]

Context is everything.

 

This is an ethnonationalist (read: 'we don't like foreigners/dark people') protest, holding a slogan well-recognised as a racist trope, making hand gestures widely associated with white supremacists.

 

Just like those shaven-headed idiots in London the other week, raising one arm while shouting "we’re racist and that’s the way we like it" - maybe they weren't saluting, just waving to their mums. On balance, then, I really don't know what to think.

[cheezemonkhai]

16 minutes ago, Prof Yaffle said:

Context is everything.

 

This is an ethnonationalist (read: 'we don't like foreigners/dark people') protest, holding a slogan well-recognised as a racist trope, making hand gestures widely associated with white supremacists.

 

Just like those shaven-headed idiots in London the other week, raising one arm while shouting "we’re racist and that’s the way we like it" - maybe they weren't saluting, just waving to their mums. On balance, then, I really don't know what to think.

 

Honestly, I don't disagree they are a bunch of morons....

 

But the whole point of my post, which instead has gone in the don't defend the racists, is that the symbol is not a white power symbol.

It is "OK", yes the morons have picked it up, but it does not mean it is the white power symbol.

 

Just to be entirely clear, the sooner people like that are locked/re-educated the better in my opinion and I have many reasons for wanting them to be gone.

 

Before I have any more thrown my way, I wouldn't be considered "English", by that lot regardless of how I might appear.

I have heard some complete borrox come from the mouths of people complaining about the P words (Pakistani and Polish). 

 

That sort of behaviour isn't defensable.

 

However you also can't take a normal hand gesture and ban it from use because a small group of morons have taken it to mean something else. 
Doing that gives them exactly what they need, which is anger from normal people who are suddenly banned from doing normal thinks that were ok "last week".

Will we next be waiting for the French to order an official protecst, because two fingers is a direct insult/taunt from the british archers to them.

 

What scares me most is that as people get told what to do/think, more people are leaning to softeneing their views or even supporting those sort of groups and opinions, which is far more troubling in the long run. You use a carrot and a stick, not just a stick! (Apologies to any donkey that may be insulted!)

 

 

 

[skomaz]

57 minutes ago, Lee01 said:

I never said you were racist.

 

Correct @Lee011 - you didn't state that - HOWEVER, it was implied by way of the tone and nature of your questioning, or at least it was to @cheezemonkhai.

 

As to your other comment regarding disagreement and a 'clan' - touche - as the same is true in reverse...

 

Aside from that can I suggest certain people refer to Colin's post, stop jumping in with both feet and pause / re read posts / think before pressing 'submit reply'.

[Prof Yaffle]

@cheezemonkhai I'll merely say again that context matters. Nobody is disputing that that symbol means "okay" if you're, for example, bobbing around at 20m taking a decompression stop. These people aren't diving, however, they're holding a xenophobic/racist publicity stunt.

 

Yes, you can raise one arm, palm exposed, and wave to someone; no, it most certainly doesn't mean that when accompanied by racist chants. Yes, you can raise two fingers in front of someone and mean it as a form of counting; no, it doesn't mean that when accompanied by angry exhortations to kindly leave the area. And, yes, you can use this hand gesture to mean "okay" in a whole variety of situations - but, no, in this one, it is highly unlikely to mean that.

 

Whether or not people want it to be co-opted, it has been, and it is used as a symbol of recognition between white supremacists. That it almost certainly the intention here. It is unlikely to single you out for abuse if you use it in a more traditional context, and its use as a white power symbol may yet die out. However, it's also possible that more widespread recognition as a racist gesture would, indeed, render it unacceptable in general use - just as language changes, and words drop out of use because of implications (see how terms for people of colour or different sexualities have changed over time, or even the current debate about the use of "master/slave" in e.g. braking systems or IT configurations). You may not agree with these changes, but it's easy to end up as the oblivius-yet-embarrassing grandparent, still stuck with outmoded language and symbols that are caught somewhere between anachronism and offence.

I, for one, would still use the OK symbol interchangeably with a thumb-up. I am aware of how it might be perceived, though, irrespective of my own opinions.

PS any Agincourt connotations of the V-sign are, I'm afraid, a modern myth. It's a 20th century hand gesture, much more contemporary with the "okay" symbol being rotated into a horizontal plane before being moved vigorously up and down to denote disapproval. Sorry

[Aspman]

Unfortunately sometime symbols and words are lost to new meanings.

 

The symbol or word may have had an innocent or even positive meaning for decades or thousands of years but if the modern common usage comes to dominate then that word or symbol is lost to the new meaning.

 

The swastica is the prime example really. It was a religious symbol for thousands of years, in Sandscrit it means "well-being", before the 1930s it as often used as a good luck symbol.

Now, it's a universal symbol of facism, assumed to be an inherently evil symbol which is illegal to use or dsiplay in Germany.

 

Noone is taking the swastica back, it's not going to ever become a symbol of luck or blessing again, not in the West anyway.

 

If might be the same for some of these gestures or symbols you are talking about. Maybe they are just lost to the bad people.

[john999boy]

I think there's equally as many 'ultra's' on each side of the BLM and WLM debate but the middle ground on each side probably want exactly the same outcome - a world in perfect harmony with no discrimination either way.

BUT.........at the moment it seems that if you've once talked to someone who's neighbour's cousin's daughter has been told that her friend's great aunt has read a book about slavery, then there must surely be some monument, in some corner of the world, that needs removing. 🤦‍♂️

 

[@Lee]

@skomaz
I've been told no less than FOUR times that it isn't the white power symbol.
 

Quote

1) that symbol isn’t the white power symbol as such.

Quote

2) I was taking issue with you calling it a white power symbol, which it isn’t.

Quote

3) the symbol is not a white power symbol.

It is "OK", yes the morons have picked it up, 4) but it does not mean it is the white power symbol.

But clearly in that context it most certainly is being used in that way so I hope you'll forgive me if you think I've jumped to the wrong conclusion.

[cheezemonkhai]

What we can agree on is that those lot in the picture certainly appear from the pictures to be a bunch of racists and that they are trying to co-opt something to intimidate people.

 

Hopefully we can also agree that not everyone using it (subject to context) is being racist.

 

Hopefully my original point that it is not a white power symbol makes sense in light of above.

 

Your point that those people behind the sign appear to being a bunch of dicks and trying to make some sort of clever statement is also valid.

 

I am not disagreeing with the principle of dealing with racism, just not throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Just because a symbol means something in the USA or one country doesn’t mean it means the same elsewhere.

 

As the swastika was previously mentioned, it is definitely a symbol of hate In most of the world, but in India it is still adorned on lorries etc with a very different meaning.

 

Different people have different views and as before I really don’t want to spend any more time on why we don’t agree on our respective comments.

Edited 9 July, 2020 by cheezemonkhai
Typo

[john999boy]

Hopefully this will stop some wanton destruction as Donald Trump recently announced his plans to issue an order that would make the destruction of statues or federal monuments punishable by up to 10 years in prison.

[Aspman]

4 hours ago, john999boy said:

Hopefully this will stop some wanton destruction as Donald Trump recently announced his plans to issue an order that would make the destruction of statues or federal monuments punishable by up to 10 years in prison.

 

He's got plans you see

 

[shyVRS245]

15 minutes ago, Aspman said:

 

He's got plans you see

 

Canadian rock group RUSH already beat Donald as the mountain is named after them.

[@Lee]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/15/edward-colston-statue-replaced-by-sculpture-of-black-lives-matter-protester

[shyVRS245]

Got to love the irony yesterday.