Varta battery replacement

[haris]

Hi,

I have a 2014 model 1.4 140hp 

It has a varta silver dynamic 60ah battery and start stop stopped working. I think I need a new battery.

 

My question is : if I buy the same exactly battery , can I replace it myself or it needs coding or any other tricks?

 

I asked everywhere and the want 150-160 euros

I found the same  battery 115 euros.

[Axle_of_weasels]

Not all Varta batteries are stop/start rated, so check that.

 

If you have the OE radio/sat nav, you should not need any coding or other tricks

[haris]

Start stop working nicely, although I don't use it often.

 

But stopped working, then worked 2-3 times and then didn't work again

 

The battery I think is the first one and is AGM .

 

I just want to replace with the same one

 

My radio is aftermarket by the way

[Breezy_Pete]

Battery management system 'believers' will tell you "Yes, definitely, if you don't tell the car it has a new battery, the charge management system will get itself terribly confused and treat your new battery (in some unspecified way) as if it were the old one still."

 

Personally, I think this is flawed logic, based on the belief that the charging system is cleverer than it really is. I find it hard to believe that the system charges the battery in different ways depending on how old or degraded it 'thinks'  the battery is.  Trouble is, few people outside a relevant engineering team at VW group probably know the whole truth. Not really in VW group's interests to publicise the details, nor to say "ah yeah, it's a very robust system, it'll work it out within a short time" even though that's probably true.

Edited 14 June, 2020 by Wino

[Tilt]

If your car has been sat doing nothing during Covid, the battery may behave correctly once nicely recharged, ie long run or charged directly with a smart charger.........

 

Reading other threads though, you should be ok diy  if you do need a new one, using same battery without coding. I'm no expert on this though.

 

I agree with what Wino says.........

[Axle_of_weasels]

1 hour ago, Wino said:

Personally, I think this is flawed logic, based on the belief that the charging system is cleverer than it really is. I find it hard to believe that the system charges the battery in different ways depending on how old or degraded it 'thinks'  the battery is. 

 

The battery's full capacity will vary with age. The system will not try to charge the battery to 100%, except maybe on overrun, and that doesn't happen often.

 

I only expect the system to make the most minor of changes depending on battery capacity (so you'll probably not notice the difference, either way), but I think there are changes.

 

If I had access to the appropriate tool, and it was mine I'd probably do it. If I didn't and didn't expect keeping the car beyond the battery warranty period, I wouldn't bother. If I expected to keep the car, but didn't have tool access, I'm not sure. what I'd do. 

[cheezemonkhai]

My thoughts on telling it you have a new battery are:

 

Different capacity - You need to tell it what the battery can hold so it knows where to stop and start charging.

 

Bigger battery, it’ll be ok you just won’t get everything from it.

Smaller battery, you could end up stop/not starting or overcharging potentially  reducing battery life.

 

Same Spec battery...
 

The charge system will use algorithms to estimate battery degradation with age etc. New serial number = reset these to as new.

 

Don't tell it and it’ll assume the degradation still applies, so you won’t get the most out of it.

 

Different systems may or may not relearn this based on how clever or not the car is.

 

IMHO if you’re changing like for like, then it’s not worth paying £100 for as that’s most of cost of the battery.

 

A small vcds update or small charge then I would say do it.

Edited 14 June, 2020 by cheezemonkhai
Missing not

[BigEjit]

On 14/06/2020 at 10:02, Wino said:

Battery management system 'believers' will tell you "Yes, definitely, if you don't tell the car it has a new battery, the charge management system will get itself terribly confused and treat your new battery (in some unspecified way) as if it were the old one still."

 

Personally, I think this is flawed logic, based on the belief that the charging system is cleverer than it really is. I find it hard to believe that the system charges the battery in different ways depending on how old or degraded it 'thinks'  the battery is.  Trouble is, few people outside a relevant engineering team at VW group probably know the whole truth. Not really in VW group's interests to publicise the details, nor to say "ah yeah, it's a very robust system, it'll work it out within a short time" even though that's probably true.

 

You are pretty close to the truth there! The primary reason for coding in the new battery is to select the correct charging strategy map for the battery technology type being installed to optimize its performance. There has to be an element of system self learning through the battery monitor relating to battery condition, (State of charge, State of function, Depth of discharge, Temperature compensation). So in theory, swapping 'like for like' batteries without coding won't have long term consequences and everything will be fine after a few hundred miles or so. No two identical batteries work in precisely the same way and certainly not if using a generic aftermarket battery vs the OEM optimised unit.

 

Swapping EFB to AGM for example without coding won't mean that the battery will immediately fail/explode and the car do strange things, it still a 12v battery and will discharge and recharge as normal. It's just the optimised charging strategy won't be in place for maximizing the battery life and hidden operational features like the desulphation/reconditioning cycle timings and duration won't be correct either.

 

 

 

 

[flybynite]

 

On 14/06/2020 at 10:02, Wino said:

Trouble is, few people outside a relevant engineering team at VW group probably know the whole truth.

 

Which is why those people write the procedure for coding the car when the battery is changed.

 

7 hours ago, BigEjit said:

So in theory, swapping 'like for like' batteries without coding won't have long term consequences and everything will be fine after a few hundred miles or so.

 

There will always be people who second-guess everything, think they know better than the people who make the stuff and do it their own way.

 

Personally if there is a procedure laid down, I just do it, unless there is a reason it is not safe to do so.

[Breezy_Pete]

12 minutes ago, flybynite said:

Which is why those people write the procedure for coding the car when the battery is changed.

One reason perhaps, but another may be that making things seem more difficult for non-VW group companies/individuals' DIY can be very lucrative...

As soon as they get your car in, they can start upselling all those 'we found this, that and the other that need work' things.

 

I understand that @BigEjit works in this field, so he's probably the closest we'll get to specific reliable inside info.

Edited 15 June, 2020 by Wino

[haris]

So, is it a straight swap or needs coding?

 

Sorry but my English is not so good and I didn't understand yet.

 

[BigEjit]

@haris Can you tell us what exactly you currently have on your vehicle? VARTA Silver Dynamic are not fitted by VW group on the production lines. They are only supplied as aftermarket parts or direct to small volume vehicle manufacturers.

 

A photo of your current battery will be perfect.

 

The reason I ask is the battery you described doesn’t exist on the fitment listings for your vehicle. 

Edited 15 June, 2020 by BigEjit

[haris]

I bought the car 2 years ago and this battery is fitted.

Varta silver 60 agm

 

I thought it was the first one from the factory. My mechanic also said that this type and brand must be the car's stock battery

 

I was very pleasant 2 years now from the battery and I'm thinking king to buy the exactly same again

[BigEjit]

So it is definitely not it’s first battery, this one is it’s second aftermarket supplied part. The paint mark on the negative clamp is not on the surface of the tightening nut and it has been slightly overtightened as the gap in the clamp has been closed up too much. It also looks too small for the insulation wrap. 

 

D52 is in the VARTA catalog for mk2 Octavia 1.4 without stop start. 
 

Ideally if you want another AGM, the Silver Dynamic 096AGM is best fitment for Mk3 Octavia 1.4. (Short code E39)

 

Otherwise EFB Blue Dynamic 096EFB is the cheaper option for stop/start. (Short code N70)

 

Before ordering, check the size of the battery on the VARTA website so you know it will fit in the battery box to be absolutely sure it’s correct. 

 

Whatever replacement you choose, I suggest you get it coded into the vehicle Just in case it was not done correctly when the current battery was fitted. 

[pist0nbr0ke]

1 hour ago, haris said:

So, is it a straight swap or needs coding?

 

Sorry but my English is not so good and I didn't understand yet.

 

 

I'm not laughing at you, I wouldn't blame you if you regret asking!

[Axle_of_weasels]

Here is a link to website of a supplier selling a D52. Notice that it looks (superficially) quite different from your battery. It is also the way I expect a Varta Silver Dynamic battery to look. The vaguely silver coloured plastic is the usual give-away that it is part of Varta's silver range.

 

My strong suspicion is that you have an OEM version of the D52 (same battery, internally, just cost reduced in some of the cosmetic/appearance features, to meet Skoda's requirements...I've seen Varta/Skoda do this before, and in that case, it was a non stop-start battery, and looked even plainer)

 

BigEjit is probably correct that this battery has been disconnected before: Most probably, whoever just felt that they needed to disconnect it because of needing to do work where there was a risk of a short, but it could be out of another vehicle.

 

The OEM versions do not normally make it in to the retail supply chain (in the UK anyway), but it could be what you get if you buy a battery from a Skoda main dealer.

 

If the battery has a date code, that may be a further clue.

 

I've got an alternative strategy for you, in replacing the battery. I haven't tried this (never owned a stop-start car), but I'm pretty sure it will work.

 

i) physically change battery

 

ii) turn stop-start off

 

iii) drive for a short period (at least a couple of days, and at least 150 km), then turn stop-start back on.

 

Or, possibly, leave stop-start off, if you don't like it (there is a minimal saving in fuel, and it reduces the life of the battery - the two nearly cancel each other out).

 

This should give the system time to do any adaptation to the new battery (which is likely to be small, anyway) before you engage stop-start.

[Breezy_Pete]

It looks to me from haris's photograph as if the negative clamp has just not been pushed far enough down the battery post (which is slightly conical) before being tightened.

 

If it was a Skoda-supplied battery, I'm pretty sure it would have a VW-group part number somewhere on the top label, @Axle_of_weasels

Or is that in fact one just to the right of D52 on the second line? Ending 901 068?  Can't make out the first three characters. 

Doesn't seem to be; those last 6 characters don't fit with any I'm seeing in parts catalogue. (And axle's link's title tells us that is the varta part number, not vw-group; now that I've gone there)

Edited 16 June, 2020 by Wino

[BigEjit]

D52 is the wrong size battery for the car.    It’s way too small. 

 

The original part no is 6R0 915 105 B and quite a bit larger. 

[cheezemonkhai]

The battery does say Silver AGM dynamic... the AGM being hard to see, but it’s in silver on the top label.

 

As such it’s a start stop battery, although it wouldn’t surprise me if a Used car dealer had a Car with a dead battery and put what they could get from a catalogue on the car.

 

catalogues can be wrong..

[darrenw]

You will get a host of warning lights and error codes after the swap. Most, like steering angle will clear after a drive. Others need clearing via an OBD tool like VCDS.

[EVangelist]

On 15/06/2020 at 11:12, BigEjit said:

...optimised charging strategy won't be in place for maximizing the battery life and hidden operational features like the desulphation/reconditioning cycle timings and duration won't be correct either

Sorry to revive an old thread, but @BigEjit - is the Octavia's battery management really that smart? I'm about to replace the OEM battery (VARTA AGM manufactured for VAG, 68Ah, Cranking 680A EN/SAE/GS) with a Yuasa YBX9096 (AGM, 70Ah, Cranking EN1 rated at 760). Yuasa's website says coding is required, but I assumed the batteries are similar enough to make a DIY replacement ok.

It never occurred to me to go to a dealer for a new battery!

[varaderoguy]

Re: battery encoding.

 

A lot of modern car batteries do need to be encoded in due to the methodology of charging the battery. If you replace the battery without coding the new one in, the car will get confused and probably throw an erroneous error or two. It also means that whilst the battery will charge, it will do so at a lower amperage and will treat the replacement battery as an electrically dumb device. It means stuff like stop/start may not work and extra high loads on the battery such as electric seats may not work as intended.

[Breezy_Pete]

The battery is an electrically dumb device. All the talk about 'coding the battery' is misleading; you actually code/educate the car about the size/type of battery being installed. The battery has nothing within it that could contain any code.

[classic]

Wino is correct in my opinion.

The important thing with cars that have battery management systems is to replace like for like in terms of capacity and type as that is what the system is engineered to work with. I believe, from what I’ve read on the subject, you must replace an AGM with AGM, but can replace an EFB with an AGM.

 

“Coding the battery“, as Wino as says, is actually programming or coding the car computer. And it has only 2 purposes -

1. It logs the battery change time, date, serial number and mileage in the system for warranty purposes.

2. It resets the battery management system to immediately begin relearning the state of health, charge etc of the battery, which will allow it to quickly restore functions such as Stop/Start, which it may have been disabling or restricting due to its perceived understanding of the previous battery.

 

If you change the battery without updating the coding then the battery management system will continue to restrict functions until it has monitored enough battery events (cold starts, charge cycles etc) to be satisfied the battery can cope with operating systems such as stop/start.

 

If you code it then those systems will be restored more quickly, if not immediately.

 

Disclaimer - this is the internet, I post my understanding of subjects and always stand to be corrected by those more knowledgeable 

Edited 23 January, 2021 by classic

[EVangelist]

Thanks all for the replies, it's been a great intro to this forum

 

Based on @classic's input (that the car will figure out the battery's state of health and adjust itself), I'll go ahead and replace without coding, and post back if I notice anything negative.

 

The old battery wasn't so bad that the car was disabling start-stop or other functions, but cold weather, lockdown and hence very short journeys mean the battery was needing a charge before I could use the car if it's been sitting for more than 2-3 days. And a battery tester says it needs replacing, though I was hoping to put it off until next winter.