How Stuff Works - a National Funding Guide. Sort Of.

[mac11irl]

By mod/member request, following the mentioning the cost to drop off half a timber shed's worth of timber at my local recycling centre, this thread is to hopefully explain how, in my case, Irish Society is paid for. 

I welcome any other ROI members like @chimaera , @Superb170 to chip in, I am not an expert, so will miss stuff, or badly explain other things..

 

other countries also feel free to compare and contrast how your systems work too. im mot going to do it all in one big post, ill focus on what was asked already today - waste and water. 

[mac11irl]

Water - 

this is easy but complicated.

its FREE for all domestic use. 

there was an attempt a few yrs ago to bring water charges, the water depts of LAs were raided for staff, a new quango established and millions spent installing water meters at every house in the country. 

then the protests started, new poxy, single issue "political parties" were spawned and the charges paid by some refunded (like us) and the plan shelved.

result -

the quango still exists, but is missing 60% of its revenue stream, so cant do a whole lot of work.

i know the main contractor on one major project was considering abandoning the oroject as they hadnt been paid for months.

our water infrastructure is shocking, they turn our supply off when it rains heavily to prevent the filter beds being overwhelmed...

 

there was 5alk a couple of weeks ago about reintroducing the charges next yr, but thats now been pushed back to 2022 again.

 

 

 

 

[MikeTheThinker]

13 minutes ago, mac11irl said:

a new quango established and millions spent installing water meters at every house in the country. 

 

The term "boondoggle" comes to mind ...

[mac11irl]

Revenue Streams -  the main ones..

 

PAYE income tax.

3 bands - 

0 % on first bit

20% on next chunk

40% on anything over that.

 

link has a table that shows the up to date cutoffs

 

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/money_and_tax/tax/income_tax/how_your_tax_is_calculated.html#:~:text=Tax rates and the standard rate cut-off point,-Tax is charged&text=The first part of your,tax%2C 40% in 2020.

 

 

PAYE is deducted at source then where needed a self assessment tax return is done by the individual for any other income and allowance claims - rental property, stocks/dividends,medical bill deductions etc etc. 

 

various allowances and deductions available.

 

PRSI - Pay Related Social Insurance

this goes towards paying your benefits like dole, child benefit, social pension etc

 

USC - Universal Social Charge.

this was brought in as an emergency measure when the economy imploded in 2008 ish. everyone pays it, its basically another name for increasing income tax. it is hated by all for being sneaky and basically being used to service the debt we were landed with courtesy of the bank gaurantee.

 

Corporation Tax 

everyone knows how that works and doesnt work globally.

 

Commercial Rates

paid by businesses to the LA its used to fund raod repairs street lighting public bins etc. ots based on the ohysical size of the shop/business.

 

Customs, Excise Duty, VAT etc

all colllected as applicable 

 

 

essentially all money gathered from all streams aretaken in by central government and the distributed to each government dept and LA prop up money is issued alsi. Currently they get their rates money back in full plus any other capital projects allocated. theres talk of redistributing some LA recenue to less well off LAs (like Dublin City rates being given to Leitrim Co Co to help them out).

 

 

thats pretty much the income taken care of.

[Lady Elanore]

That doesn't look so different to what we have     or perhaps that should be a   

Edited 27 September, 2020 by Lady Elanore

[john999boy]

It looks like income is taxed differently than in the UK as Irish tax is this:-

and (for each person) UK tax is this:-

 

So in theory it's possible for a UK couple to earn just under £100k without incurring 40% tax whereas an Irish couple would reach that amount at approximately 2/3 of that income.

 

Just going back to the refuge scenario from the other thread though, are there multiple collection firms vying for the same rubbish and does the recyclable stuff need to be separated as we have to? Is that chargeable by volume (i.e. a wheelie bin) and not by weight as at the tip?

 

Regarding water rates - two scenarios exist. Primarily either with or without a water meter. New houses since 1990 have them installed and pay for usage but people who have older houses can pay depending upon the rateable value of the property. This is (mainly) based upon the following:-

People can elect to have a meter fitted if they want (on basically a trial basis) to see if they'll benefit.

If house improvements are done during your tenure then any potential value increase will only start when the house is sold.

 

This table also reflects how much each house is charged relative to the base band.

 

Your system certainly seems simpler but would you in your 10 bedroom mansion be paying the same as your neighbour in their 3 bed semi?

Edited 27 September, 2020 by john999boy

[mac11irl]

oh I forgot the property tax!!

 

this is banded according to property value.

 

 

your LPT value was set according to your purchase value, or market value when it was introduced, depending on how recently you purchased. on our old house we managed to get our LPT down by valuing it the same as a recently sold neighbouring house which went for 40k less than we paid about 5yrs previously. 

 

the LPT money is just fired in with all the other tax, its not ringfenced for anything in particular. refusal to pay can lead to deduction at source by revenue on your paye income (not paying it was a big thing at the time as protexmst against yet more taxes). 

 

landlords pay the LPT on their properties, not the tenants, as it is an ownership tax, and is not an allowable deduction on your rental income.

 

 

edit - changed the table, original didnt zoom very well, thats the 2015 table, but LAs have mostly left them unchanged, as they set them within a max alteration allowed every couple of yrs. it was originally fixed for 5yrs by government, so changes are only starting to happen now.

Edited 27 September, 2020 by mac11irl

[mac11irl]

Waste Disposal...

 

Right, this varies a bit LA to LA but mostly follows a trend outside of Dublin.

 

As we dont pay a Council Tax, there is no "Free" Council waste collection. 

waste collection services are a private enterprise affair with various different companies available depending on your location. their charges vary depending on on what you get. Councils used to operate their own collection service for which you also paid the council directly. people on social welfare or old age pension could get a heavily subsidised rate. this may still be the case, but if it is the collection is carried out under contract by a private firm on the councils behalf. this is definitely what is done in the Dublin City Corporation area.

 

all the private operators charge a flat annual/monthly fee, and then a pay by weight charge is applied on top. 

recycling collection is "free". then general waste has a charge. some operators offer glass collection and composting collection cant say i know on the costs though.

 

Local Authorities also operate recycling / civic amenity centres. The Tip. 

you rock on with your various separated types of rubbish, tell the lads what you have and pay them for access to the yard to do your drop off.

a rough comparison..

1 local collection company costs approx €35/month for

weekly recycling pickup

fortnightly gen waste*

fortnightly compost

the fortnightly ones are alternating weeks. 

*gen waste is a wheelie bin up to 24kg iirc. over that is €0.50 per kg.

 

LA drop off costs -

black bag gen waste €5

clear bag recycling €1

composting, i cant remember.

 

now, heres the thing. there is no weight limit, its volume.

i set up a recycling bag by lining the bag with cardboard cereal boxes for reinforcement. this allows me to crush in 2 weeks worth of stuff per bag.

i use heavy duty 120l black bags so we produce on average 3 bags per month.

i weighed a couple of our monthly bags at the tip one day out of curiosity. they were 17kg, 19kg and 16kg so about 52kg which wouldve cost around 37quid for a pick up service. 

instead it cost me €17.

have a compost bin so theres no charge anyway.

 

i said it to the lads in the yard who were shocked. they told me if someone comes in with a wheelie bin they charge it as 3 bags - 15quid. 

 

 

i think thats the waste disposal issue covered?

[Aspman]

 

Cows and Government

Socialism

You have two cows. The government takes one and give one to your neighbor.

Communism

You have two cows. The government takes them both and promises you milk but you starve.

Fascism

You have two cows. The government takes them and sells you the milk.

Bureaucracy

You have two cows. The government takes them both, shoots one, milks the other, pays you for the milk, and then pours it down the drain.

Capitalism

You have two cows. You sell one and buy a bull.

Bain Capitalism

You have two cows. You sell one, force the other to produce the milk of four cows and then act surprised when it drops dead.

Redistributionism

You have two cows. The government taxes you to the point that you must sell them both in order to support someone else who already got a free cow from the government.

 

Also

 

TRADITIONAL CAPITALISM
You have two cows.
You sell one and buy a bull.
Your herd multiplies, and the economy grows.
You sell them and retire on the income.

SOCIALISM
You have 2 cows.
You give one to your neighbour.

COMMUNISM
You have 2 cows.
The State takes both and gives you some milk.

FASCISM
You have 2 cows.
The State takes both and sells you some milk.

EUROPEAN UNIONISM
You have 2 cows.
The EU takes one because otherwise you would be ‘over-quota’ in milk production, milks it, stores the milk in the form of milk powder in warehouses all over Europe so an not to perversely depress the global price of milk, taxes you to the hilt via your national Government and then gives the money to people who don’t produce milk in exchange for their commitment to continue not producing milk.

CAPITALISM ACCORDING TO INVESTMENT BANKERS
You have two cows.
You sell three of them to your publicly listed company, using letters of credit opened by your brother-in-law at the bank, then execute a debt-for-equity swap with an associated public offering so that you get all four cows back, with a tax exemption for five cows.
The milk rights of the six cows are transferred via an intermediary to a Cayman Island Company secretly owned by the majority shareholder who sells the rights to all seven cows back to your listed company.
The annual report says the company owns eight cows, with an option on one more.
You sell one cow to pay yourself a massive bonus, leaving you with nine cows.
When you file for bankruptcy the Government bails you out as what you have done is so complicated that no one knows what the consequences would be if they let you go bankrupt.
The Government then takes the credit for saving the economy while the public is forced to buy your bull.

SURREALISM
You have two giraffes.
The government requires you to take harmonica lessons.

AN AMERICAN CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You sell one, and force the other to produce the milk of four cows.
Later, you hire a consultant to analyse why the cow has dropped dead.

A FRENCH CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You go on strike, organise a riot, and block the roads, because you wish you had more.

A JAPANESE CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You bred cows at a rate faster than anyone would have believed and sold them all over the world.
Now you have to recall hundreds of thousands of cows due to a milking problem and explain yourself before a Senate committee in the US.  However, there is a possibility of you getting off by blaming the udder guy.

A GERMAN CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You re-engineer them so they live for 100 years, eat once a month and milk themselves.

AN ITALIAN CORPORATION
You have two cows, but you don’t know where they are.
You decide to have lunch.

A RUSSIAN CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You count them and learn you have five cows.
You count them again and learn you have 42 cows. You count them again and learn you have 2 cows.
You stop counting cows and open another bottle of vodka.

A SWISS CORPORATION
You have 5000 cows. None of them belong to you.
You charge the owners for storing  them.

A CHINESE CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You have 300 people milking them.
You claim that you have full employment, and high bovine productivity.
You arrest the newsman who reported the real situation.

AN INDIAN CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You worship them.

AN IRAQI CORPORATION
Everyone thinks you have lots of cows.
You tell them that you have none.
No-one believes you, so they invade your country.
You still have no cows, but at least you are now a Democracy.

AN AUSTRALIAN CORPORATION
You have two cows.
Business seems pretty good.
You close the office and go for a few beers to celebrate.

A FOOTBALL CORPORATION
You don’t have any money but you would like some cows.
You borrow massive amounts of money from a bank securitised against the value of the cows you then buy.
You pay the cows vast sums of money to play football only to find they are not really very good at it.
When the money runs out you go bankrupt, but it doesn't really matter as you paid yourself fabulously and can now afford to retire.

Edited 28 September, 2020 by Aspman

[mac11irl]

theres a lot to digest in that Aspman...

[olduns]

Very good Mac... I see what what you did there... 

[mac11irl]

2 hours ago, olduns said:

Very good Mac... I see what what you did there... 

and it was unintentional

 

[mac11irl]

what do people want to know next?

i got a pm about one topic but i need to check into it as i have experience..

[Lady Elanore]

The version of that I used to have of that ended with

 

UK Corporation

You have two cows.

They are both mad.

[Aspman]

There are many more -

 

AMERICAN CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You sell one, lease it back to yourself and do an IPO on the 2nd one.
You force the two cows to produce the milk of four cows.
You are surprised when one cow drops dead.
You spin an announcement to the analysts stating you have down sized and are reducing expenses.
Your stock goes up.

FRENCH CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You go on strike because you want three cows.
You go to lunch and drink wine.
Life is good.

JAPANESE CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You redesign them so they are one tenth the size of an ordinary cow and produce twenty times the milk.
They learn to travel on unbelievably crowded trains.
Most are at the top of their class at cow school.

GERMAN CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You engineer them so they are all blond, drink lots of beer, give excellent quality milk, and run a hundred miles an hour.
Unfortunately they also demand 13 weeks of vacation per year.

ITALIAN CORPORATION
You have two cows but you don't know where they are.
While ambling around, you see a beautiful woman.
You break for lunch.
Life is good.

RUSSIAN CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You have some vodka.
You count them and learn you have five cows.
You have some more vodka.
You count them again and learn you have 42 cows.
The Mafia shows up and takes over however many cows you really have.

TALIBAN CORPORATION
You have all the cows in Afghanistan, which are two.
You don't milk them because you cannot touch any creature's private parts.
Then you kill them and claim a US bomb blew them up while they were in the hospital.

IRAQI CORPORATION
You have two cows.
They go into hiding.
They send radio tapes of their mooing.

POLISH CORPORATION
You have two bulls.
Employees are regularly maimed and killed attempting to milk them.

FLORIDA CORPORATION
You have a black cow and a brown cow.
Everyone votes for the best looking one.
Some of the people who like the brown one best, vote for the black one.1111111111111111111111111111
Some people vote for both.
Some people vote for neither.
Some people can't figure out how to vote at all.
Finally, a bunch of guys from out-of-state tell you which is the best looking cow.

POLITICAL CORRECTNESS
You are associated with (the concept of 'ownership' is a symbol of the phallocentric, warmongering, intolerant past) two differently aged (but no less valuable to society) bovines of non-specified gender.

SURREALISM
You have two giraffes.
The government requires you to take harmonica lessons.

CALIFORNIAN
You have a cow and a bull.
The bull is depressed.
It has spent its life living a lie.
It goes away for two weeks.
It comes back after a taxpayer-paid sex-change operation.
You now have two cows.
One makes milk; the other doesn't.
You try to sell the transgender cow.
Its lawyer sues you for discrimination.
You lose in court.
You sell the milk-generating cow to pay the damages.
You now have one rich, transgender, non-milk-producing cow.
You change your business to beef. PETA pickets your farm.
Jesse Jackson makes a speech in your driveway.
Cruz Bustamante calls for higher farm taxes to help "working cows".
Hillary Clinton calls for the nationalization of 1/7 of your farm "for the children".
Gray Davis signs a law giving your farm to Mexico.
The L.A. Times quotes five anonymous cows claiming you groped their teats.
You declare bankruptcy! and shut down all operations.
The cow starves to death.
The L.A. Times' analysis shows your business failure is Bush's fault.

[mac11irl]

Healyhcare... phase 1...

GP Care -

if you are on a low income or benefits you will qualify after means testing for either

a medical card which covers all medical expenses through public funding systems.

or

a GP visit card, which covers your GP visits, but (i dont think) any additional charges like blood tests etc.

we have an under 6s GP Card also where all kids under 6 get free GP care. This was recently extended to under 8s. and i think plans to extend to under 10s/12s at some stage.

 

if you dont qualify for the GO cards, you pay anything from 50 to 80quid for a visit to the GO, depending on your individual GPs rates, ad then any additionalin on top.

 

Officially they are independent self empmoyed doctors who work on a contract to the HSE. 

 

vaccinations programmes for kids are free.

 

out of hours GP care is regional, and is operated by participating GPs working on a Rota. it also cots 70quid per visit unless you have a GP/Med card.

[Lady Elanore]

Don't forget the Japanese reengineered cow is renamed 'Cowkimon' 

[john999boy]

8 hours ago, mac11irl said:

Healyhcare... phase 1...

GP Care -

if you are on a low income or benefits you will qualify after means testing for either

a medical card which covers all medical expenses through public funding systems.

or

a GP visit card, which covers your GP visits, but (i dont think) any additional charges like blood tests etc.

we have an under 6s GP Card also where all kids under 6 get free GP care. This was recently extended to under 8s. and i think plans to extend to under 10s/12s at some stage.

 

if you dont qualify for the GO cards, you pay anything from 50 to 80quid for a visit to the GO, depending on your individual GPs rates, ad then any additionalin on top.

 

Officially they are independent self empmoyed doctors who work on a contract to the HSE. 

 

vaccinations programmes for kids are free.

 

out of hours GP care is regional, and is operated by participating GPs working on a Rota. it also cots 70quid per visit unless you have a GP/Med card.

The UK has free access to GP's (actually limited by not usually being able to get an appointment) with prescriptions costing £9.15 per item.

However:-

 

Most vaccinations are free but travel ones may incur a cost:-

 

What's your dentist costs?

[Aspman]

Prescriptions are free in Scotland.

 

Quiet a few differences in provison of health care between England and Scotland.

[mac11irl]

prescription renewals vary, some small gp country clinics dont charge. ours charge a tenner for renewal.

 

there is then a dispensing charge applied at the pharmacy (government mandated tax really)

 

we have a Drug Payment Scheme which all citizens can apply for. then if you spend over a certain threshold in a month on medications the balance is picked up by the dept. i think the threshold is around 125quid, but i may be wrong.

whats really annoying is the dispensing charge applies for every time you pick up, but its not covered on the DPS. but on the DPS you can only pick up a month suppy at a time, so every month you go for your meds you get caught for another dispensing fee, whereas if youre not on the DPS you could pick up a 4month supply and only pay one dispensing charge.

 

 

 

dentist fees, 

average for an inspection is ... 0

we get 2 check ups per year free from our prsi contributions 

but its literally just to open your mouth and look in. 

a clean and polish will cost.

filings cost, crowns, etc.

orthodontics cost massive, inless you go fully public system which could take years.

[olddog]

Great thread, Mac.

 

I see Japan mentioned a few times.

 

Can I give a plug to one of my favourite YT channels 'Life Where I'm From' ?

 

Its ( just about ) all about life in Japan

 

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqwxJts-6yF33rupyF_DCsA

 

Now Mac, about the deadlocked rear driver side door on my Octy  ......

 

Edited 30 September, 2020 by olddog

[olddog]

On 27/09/2020 at 22:52, mac11irl said:

......As we dont pay a Council Tax, .....

The LPT does go to the LAs

 

Whats in a name ? 

[mac11irl]

4 hours ago, olddog said:

Now Mac, about the deadlocked rear driver side door on my Octy  ......

 

ill have a look for your post in a few mins

 

 

4 hours ago, olddog said:

The LPT does go to the LAs

 

Whats in a name ? 

 

well, your council tax goes to the LA and covers the costs of waste collection street lighting etc. ours just goes into a big pot and churned up. the reality is before LPT came in the council got the same budget they do now. it hasnt increased with the LPT, it was used to service the national debt....

[olddog]

37 minutes ago, mac11irl said:

 

ill have a look for your post in a few mins

No post - leg pull - I have problem and plan to follow your great posts on the topic

37 minutes ago, mac11irl said:

 

 

 

well, your council tax goes to the LA and covers the costs of waste collection street lighting etc. ours just goes into a big pot and churned up. the reality is before LPT came in the council got the same budget they do now. it hasnt increased with the LPT, it was used to service the national debt....

Hmmm....  Thats how it is for stuff like road tax but my impression is its not like that for LPT - otherwise why would any region choose to vary higher ? Dublin City manager recently pleaded  for the Dublin LPT to be varied higher to help cover some of the CV-19 fallout shortfall in the city.   ( what planet is he on to think its a good idea to increase taxes the very time individual incomes have nosedived ? )

 

 

[VWD]

On 29/09/2020 at 01:38, Lady Elanore said:

The version of that I used to have of that ended with

 

UK Corporation

You have two cows.

They are both mad.

Not mad, they just think they are sheep.

As for JTB on UK free prescriptions, there's also an under 65 class of free prescriptions for folks on long term medication ( diabetes is one) , where exemption for charges is given.